Why can't I shut off that part of my brain? Please go away and stop tormenting me!

To avoid continually hijacking SAWE's thread on "yet another question about transference" and also Velvet Cactus' thread on "Erotic Transference Explained", I decided to take this to a new thread. I realize that these feelings (or when I was brave enough to admit this to my therapist) have been going on for a year now.

Some of you may remember these threads I posted a year ago.

(1) "Finally Got the Courage to Tell Her" http://forums.psychcentral.com/showthread.php?t=173294"Finally

(2) "Confession Session with my Therapist" http://forums.psychcentral.com/showthread.php?t=173702

and also the one I posted a few days after that confession:

(3) "OMG! Why did I confess that to her!" http://forums.psychcentral.com/showt...highlight=REBT

I am still no better now than I was then. How do you get past these feelings? I wish I knew........

I think if I brought this up to her again, she wouldn't like it. She would frown on me having these thoughts about her. She thinks I am past this. Or at least, I think she does. I haven't let on that I am still troubled by it. I want another therapist to help me with this, but I still want to stay with the therapist I have now as well.

Therapy is so complicated. I wish I could make this part of me shut up and go away! I don't know why it is tormenting me so much.

I understand Squiggle , what if you talked to T about it and if the reaction is as you suspect, then you can suggest seeing an additional T and or bringing in a 2nd T?

I can't do that. Even though I say I want to talk with another therapist, I don't think I could. I can't open up to another one. Don't have the money to do that anyway. Somehow, I am going to have to work through this. I am going to start journaling about my feelings/emotions and hopefully be able to give it to her when we meet next week.

Deep down, I know she won't reject me or be upset. She never gets upset when I admit something to her. She encourages honesty no matter what it is that I need to say. It is my own insecurity and fear talking when I say she might get mad at me or terminate me.

We are working through some issues that are related to sex. That would be my husband's addiction to pornography. He has been working very hard to change that behavior. I am proud of him for that. But I have years of abuse that has built up because of the shame I have carried due to his addiction. There is alot of hurt there for me. That is why I am confused as to why I think stuff about her when it hurts me so bad the things I have seen my husband do.

She will more than likely tell me that my emotions are coming up pretty strong right now because I am finally willing to face the pain. She will see this as a good sign. She will tell me that my emotions about this have been suppressed for so long that they confuse me. She will say that the sexual issue is not about her, but about what she represents. I am not sure what all that means.

I don't understand why I think about her in that way. Why does that happen and what does it mean? That is what is driving me crazy! I don't think about anyone else that way. Why her? She tells me that I have been in two abusive marriages and that they did not have very healthy sexual boundaries. This is why I don't know what a real sexual relationship should be like. You can't know something that you have never had, so you when you are faced with sexual feelings, you don't know how to respond. This is what gets so many people into situations they regret later on.

She also said something like I am starved for love and affection. Since I don't love myself, I seek that out from others. Once I learn to love myself and accept myself just as I am, she tells me that my emotions will be easier for me to sort out. I won't be seeking so much validation from others. When you do that, you get mixed signals. You may think someone is thinking one thing, but they may not be. Your interpretation of their actions can be really distorted and this messes things up!

My two cents? Humans are by nature sexual creatures. Women included. Read Dr. Tatiana's Sex Advice to All Creation. First, it's hilarious, second, I think it nails the true nature of female sexuality IF it were left unfettered and without ALL THE CRAP that gets piled on top of it.

BUT, as you say, it's not left that way. I think when really intense emotions start flying about in therapy, things just get conflated with sex - regardless of gender, whatever. I think it is a natural and very very human response to a genuine show of affection.

That plus I think you should consider the fact that in order to get animals to mate in captivity, all we have to do is put them together and close a door so to speak. Sound familiar?

I think these feelings are sooooo intense and sooooo intrusive because you want them to go away. You're expending a lot of energy into suppressing something that is IMO, innate to humans, natural, and altogether normal. It would be like trying to convince yourself that your not thirsty, when you are. It just won't work and you must be exhausted.

What if you said "Okay, genetic programming, I don't like you, and you don't like me, but we are going to have to live together, so let's call a truce" and really just let the feelings be. Maybe even (gasp!) enjoyed the desire for connection and intimacy.

Again, just my thoughts. It's the way I reasoned it out in my head, and damn if it didn't work.

Too funny

((((((((((Squiggle))))))))))

It makes complete sense to me. And you already know your T won't look down on you for bringing this up. Your husband's addiction caused you to not have your needs met. You needed emotional bonding. People with addictions have a great amount of their internal energy redirected onto the addiction. That leaves very little emotional energy left to spend on their partners.

In therapy you have a person who has saved up emotional energy just for you. Therapists work very hard on taking care of themselves because they have to replentish emotional energy in order to have it to give out to clients on the job.

Everyone has a basic need of sharing energy with other people. It is a primate thing actually. We are a pack/tribe/band species. I heard once "The lone primate is a dead primate".

When your husband was giving his energy out to other situations and had little left for you, it was a primative way of putting you on the bottom of the pack. You were the last to eat and you only got the scraps.

When you go into T and have a full meal of all the energy you could want, that puts you at the top of the pack. Your survival needs are being met! Honestly, if you think about it, how could you not help but feeling what you do?

It looks to me like she made it clear, here:
You should bring it up every now and then and revisit it?

It does seem to me that you are working awfully hard on the relationship between you two (which is an arbitrary, "imaginary" one) rather than looking at yourself enough and what you are doing in your own life, how your feelings are reflected in your life, what they are telling you about you, instead of about you and her or her at all. She is not really a part of your equation and you are just "using" her as a stand-in for something else; that's what therapy does? So, instead of looking too hard at those literal thoughts/feelings, you should be looking more at the energy behind them and where you would like it to reside.

I'm not saying it well but maybe a slightly different example will serve: I'm obese. Fat is stored energy. I have a lot of stored energy. What could I use that for? How could I access it? Instead of thinking in terms of losing weight and dieting, etc., I want to look at it as a resource and use it positively.

>> Somehow, I am going to have to work through this.


Deep down, I know she won't reject me or be upset. She never gets upset when I admit something to her. She encourages honesty no matter what it is that I need to say. It is my own insecurity and fear talking when I say she might get mad at me or terminate me.
Squiggle this is your "wise mind" talking. It's wonderful that you know these things. Try to hold onto them - even if it means printing out this part of yr post and keeping it in yr pocket. Might even be good to show T when you bring up this subject, so she will know how you need her to respond!

We are working through some issues


........She also said something like I am starved for love and affection. Since I don't love myself, I seek that out from others. Once I learn to love myself and accept myself just as I am, she tells me that my emotions will be easier for me to sort out. I won't be seeking so much validation from others.
wow, yr T sounds like a good one.
This is hard work, very hard work. Please know that I will be keeping you (and yr DH) in my prayers.

proud of you!!!

I still wonder how she 'really' feels when I tell her something like this. I mean, how would I feel if someone told me that they thought about me in that way? Would it creep me out? Would I feel strange being around this person? I have to admit, I might!

I don't want to disappoint her, either. We had this issue one year ago, and I haven't brought it up again. If I bring it up now, she may think I am regressing. She may think a lot of things. How can I know what she thinks if I don't ask her? She tells me that when I start assuming what others are thinking it causes me to get into trouble.

I am somewhat better tonight. Trying not to think about it. This was my session night and I am sleeping it away. I watched the clock as 5:00 came and went. Then I saw that 6:30 came and went. I am still here and I didn't do anything stupid, so I can say that I managed well.

My husband says I didn't. He says I have been depressed for two days. He insists that it is about her being gone. I don't know. He may be right. But I also have alot of other stuff going on in my life. Her being away right now is just one of those.

Have you ever felt so uncomfortable about therapy that you actually felt sick? Like you took meds on an empty stomach? That is how I feel. Just sick. Don't know why, but I do.

I do not like looking at myself, that's for sure. It is embarrassing for me to talk about myself in therapy. I feel stupid most of the time. I would love to just walk in there next week and spill my guts about all of this that I have been going through. I want to be able to do that, but I can't do that with her. Not with the feelings being directed toward her. If the transference was with someone else, I could talk to her.

I usually just say something like, I'm thinking about you a lot. The hankster is a little shy.

Lots of good, safe hugs for you tonight Squiggle.

But this is how therapy works. If you ever want to resolve this you must talk to her about it, embarrassment and all. There is no other way around this one Squiggle even though you have been looking, and looking and looking for one.

I agree with Sannah. As hard and embarrassing as it is, our Ts are the ones we need to talk about the transference with. No one else can possibly help because it's what we need professional help for. It happens for a reason and that's what we're in therapy to work through--those intense feelings that make us think we're crazy. We have to continue talking about them until we are done, like the article says. I thought I was getting "done", but I'm not, so I will bravely march into my next session and ask for help with my feelings. My T and I will be "curious" about them together. Can you look at it like that? You and your T will be curious together. It's not about being ashamed or embarrassed of your feelings, but about accepting them and understanding where they come from. We can do this together, Squiggle! "The best way out is always through".

I have been seeing my current T for about 2 years, and a lot of our conversations are around 'our' relationship. It's hard, embarrassing, time consuming...etc, I have pushed, she has pulled, none of it really makes sense, and nothing compares to it, but I think I'm now finding out that when I can heal things in our relationship I can now do that IRL.

My T is very open (some may say too open), is very available to me, and although at times it freaks me out, I think (hope) I'm getting to a better place. She tells me she's trying to mirror as much as she can what a 'real relationship' looks like so I can take that experience and use it with others.

And like others have said, we've had to talk about it ad nauseum, but everyone is different.

Good luck

One thing that confuses me when T's talk about mirroring "real" relationships is that they also talk about how the client-therapist relationship is unique.

Another thing is that many T's don't self-disclose much of anything. How is that like a "real" relationship? I can't imagine having a friend that just focuses on me without sharing anything of her life. Or a partner that doesn't share about his.

So, how can we practice the interactions found in those relationships with someone who doesn't act like a friend or a lover would?

It makes my head explode.

I know that you and Sannah are probably right, but this is too hard for me right now. I have missed two days of work this week. I can't say it is directly because of this, but I am sure the torment I am putting myself through has definitley caused me to fall into place I don't want to be. I cry about anything and everything. My mom came by to visit me. The first thing she asked me was if I thought I was suffering from depression.

She may be right. But I have to snap out of this and get back to work! For me, if I 'think' I did something wrong, my brain tells me that I actually did it. Even though logically I know I didn't, my body is reacting as though I did. Does that make sense?

You would think I took advantage of my therapist (in a sexual way) without her consent. That is what I am thinking/feeling. I can't get past these feelings of guilt and shame.

Squiggle, you in no way should be feeling guilty or ashamed of your feelings about your T! I wish you could hear that and believe it!! Do you think maybe your T will sense that something is wrong when you see her next, and help you to talk about it? I know you want to "snap out of it" and I hope you can. If it's because your T is away, then having her back may help considerably. When will she be back?

Therapists know how difficult it is, and they know that we often slide back.

Going back to the same therapist with the same feelings is entirely normal.

She might tell you, "You feel like you're back in the same place, but you are actually quite a lot further forward."

I agree with Can'tExplain. Your T won't be upset with you because you are not "past" those feelings. She's not going to "not like you" because of it. We've had our issues for many years, so they aren't going to disappear so quickly. Ts know that! I've got to keep going back to my T with feelings about her too. Each time it's a little different, though. I have some more insight into why I feel the way I do. I'm sure you do too.

I can't tell if you are being ironic here.
But I'm sure many zoo-keepers will tell you it isn't as simple as that!

I think pandas are a little fussy, but otherwise... it's a jungle out there!

I have been reading some things about erotic transference. It states that once the client confesses this to his/her therapist, it is up to the therapist to handle it. The client has done the work by confessing it. It is now up to the therapist to help the client work through those feelings.

I also read that the therapist has to be firm that the erotic feelings cannot continue. They must be worked through in order for therapy to be successful with these two people. I don't want to confess this to my therapist, and she tell me I need to see someone else since this is the second time I have brought it up. It just seems from what I read, the therapist is not to be so gentle and caring when it comes to this issue. They have to be very direct and matter-of -fact about it.The erotic fantasies cannot come to fruition and the client (with help from a therapist) needs to work through those feelings and put them where they really belong. Wherever that is!

I am not in love with my therapist. That has nothing to do with my issue at all. These fantasies are unwanted and I don't understand them.

Squiggle, confessing it is only part 1. Working it through is part 2, and that can take quite awhile. It IS up to the T to handle it properly and help us work it through, and that holds true for whatever kind of transference we're experiencing. Unfortunately, some T's are much more skilled in handling transference than others, so hopefully your T is someone who can help you figure it out and get through it successfully.
I don't know where you read that T's are not supposed to be gentle and caring when dealing with transference. That's the ONLY way to handle it properly because a T can't turn it off by being cold or callous -- that just sends the feelings underground or the patient running. Yes, the T should definitely remain relatively neutral to avoid "fanning the flames" so that the patient doesn't become even more deeply immersed in the fantasies, to the point where they start to feel "real", but the T should come across as caring and understanding, or else there's no way to get through it because the patient needs that compassion in order to feel safe enough to talk about it. I think some T's aren't good at striking that balance, and will either be too warm or too cold. Hopefully your T can strike that balance.

My choice of words wasn't clear on this one. You put it better. When a therapist is working with transference, they do need to be caring and understanding, yet they can't 'fan the flames'. That is what I meant when I said they can't be gentle and caring.

My therapist told me that she has never worked with anyone who has experienced transference. She went on to say, at least not with anyone who admitted it to her. I think she is okay with talking about it, but I don't know how much she can help me with this. I am thinking I won't bring it up.