[silenthill]

My MD said again today that i need to forgive my ex T, i understand that forgiving,but never forget,and forgiving doesn't mean what the person did was not wrong,,and i say, i can't forgive my self so how can i forgive ex T, and ex T doesn't need me to forgive her,after all she says i'm the one that planed all this,just to take her down( nice to know i have that power) so Would you or could you forgive if this was your ex T

[stopdog]

I think it may be rather soon for such a thing if it is ever possible.

[Freewilled]

I feel like forgiveness is such a personal decision and almost an individual, unique process. I was told by a T along time ago that I needed too let go of my anger at my mom and to forgive. I pleaded with him, "okay - take my anger! I don't want it! But tell me how to do this cause I just don't know how!" Well it didn't work for me. In fact, it may have been harmful for me in my situation. I'm finally just now returning to therapy after almost 10 years....Take care of yourself and let yourself grieve and work through your pain on your own timeline

[ECHOES]

I don't think that you "need to forgive" in order to take some of the intensity out of the experience. I think you can learn to 'wish this had never happened' or 'I'm glad that I'm through that', 'thank goodness that is over', etc.. or other ways to frame it so that it is something you are moving away from, something that isn't happening anymore.

Grieving takes time and each movement feels a little better.

[Syra]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I think it may be rather soon for such a thing if it is ever possible.

ECHOES: I don't think that you "need to forgive" in order to take some of the intensity out of the experience. I think you can learn to 'wish this had never happened' or 'I'm glad that I'm through that', 'thank goodness that is over', etc.. or other ways to frame it so that it is something you are moving away from, something that isn't happening anymore.

Grieving takes time and each movement feels a little better.

I don't know if I would forgive. I struggle and go in and out of forgiving my ex-T who betrayed me, and her betrayal wasn't near as severe or costly as her betrayal of you. Somedays I can. Some days I see her as another wounded soul, and can recognize that what she did had more to do with her and wasn't about me. Sometimes I struggle with that. It's been a few years since it all started. The first thing I had to do was understand what happened to me, and with me, and accept myself and what happened. The more I could do that, the more I can think about forgiving her. That's a journey, not a decision, in my experience.

[likelife]

Why does your MD think you need to forgive? Seems kinda presumptuous of him/her.

I've heard people say that forgiveness is for you, not the wrongdoer. I must not be very good at forgiveness, because I have a hard time understanding that (not intellectually, just emotionally).

[silenthill]

Thanks every one for helping me,i don't know why my MD wants me to forgive her, but it just doesn't feel right for me at this point,maybe its because some ppl should never be forgiven

[~EnlightenMe~]

I don't think your MD should be telling this to you, imo. Forgiveness, imo, is not something you can just choose to do or not do. I think that you should accept yourself for where you are right now, and keep working on moving forward, whatever that means to you. It might mean forgiveness for her, or you might move forward and try to get to a point where what she did no longer has an impact on you, or whatever you choose. I wish you well on this journey.

[Syra]

Originally Posted by silenthill

T..i don't know why my MD wants me to forgive her....

I don't know why she does either, but I have some guesses

1. so she doesn't have to feel guilty
2. so she can minimize how bad what she did was
3. so she can feel righteous because you aren't perfect either
4. so she can feel justified being angry at you because you won't forgive.

Whatever it is, it is about her. If what she wanted (you to forgive her) is what she really wanted, then she would be the first to forgive you for what she doesn't like about anything you did.

[TheRealFDeal]

I agree that it is too soon to expect forgiveness. I have also heard and agree that forgiveness is for yourself, not for the trespasser. Forgiveness is a really fuzzy concept to me. I don't totally get what it means.

Eventually, I personally would have to get to the point of forgiveness, but there really isn't a timeline on forgiveness for me. It is not a "decision" I make, snap my fingers, and accomplish in one quick step. It's a process--often a very long one--and one that sometimes I have to go through more than once in regards to certain people/wrongs. For me, forgiveness has absolutely very little to do with the person I'm forgiving, but much more to do with my ability to move forward with my life out from under the anger and resentment and bitterness that can just eat me alive. I don't forgive for their sake; I forgive for my own well-being.

If you reach that point, you'll know when you get there. No one can put you on a schedule for how or when that happens. I suspect many, many people don't have a real understanding of what forgiveness even means to them and they throw that word out "easily" without really even comprehending it themselves. It took years and years for me to wrap my head around the concept, and even more years to reach a point where I realized I had actually done it.

Try not to let anyone make you feel pressured into forgiveness. It just doesn't work that way. If it is going to come, it will come in its own time, in its own way.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by silenthill

maybe its because some ppl should never be forgiven

What she did to you was terrible. There aren't enough bad adjectives that I could stick in that sentence that would adequately communicate how terrible her actions were towards you.

Everybody has their own individual way of thinking about what forgiveness means. I am not trying to tell you what it's about for you-- it is not unreasonable to see it as about what the person who did the terrible things and his or her deservingness of forgiveness. I don't see it as a gift you bestow on a worthy individual, either because of your generosity or because they have sufficiently groveled and apologized to earn it.

For me, forgiveness has been about whether or not I need to be the kind of person who (in that moment) forgives the other person. It is definitely not about communicating that forgiveness, and it doesn't matter to me whether someone has asked for it or not. When I forgive, I move on-- and I'm not saying that you can't move on without forgiveness. But I forgive because I don't need to hold onto whatever I'm still holding onto, and I forgive because I want to be the kind of person who doesn't need to hold onto that sense of outrage or anger or grudge or whatever those complicated emotions are. Forgiveness has been, for me, a new start.

[WikidPissah]

I agree it's a bit early. You need to grieve it all out first. Your MD knows that the hatred will harm your body if you dwell in it too much, our bodies aren't made for that kind of torment. I think you'll wash off the dust after a while, maybe not "forgive" in the sense of the word, but get to a place where it doesn't cause you so much pain to think of her. It takes time.

[elliemay]

I don't know, I've danced around forgiveness a lot. I think it might be a state where we can say "you did this and I'm okay".

Not that "I'm okay with it" or "but I'm okay"

Forgiveness may be on the verge of not caring anymore and knowing nonetheless.

It might be a good place to be.

Originally Posted by elliemay

I don't know, I've danced around forgiveness a lot. I think it might be a state where we can say "you did this and I'm okay".

Not that "I'm okay with it" or "but I'm okay"

Forgiveness may be on the verge of not caring anymore and knowing nonetheless.

It might be a good place to be.

That's close to how I see it, but instead of "being on the verge of not caring anymore and knowing nonetheless", it's more like knowing what I've survived, caring that the experience is part of my history, but that history no longer having the power to drive my feelings and behaviors and thoughts constantly and relentlessly as it once did. It is reaching the point where that history/experience/wrong has finally lost its power to define me.

[wotchermuggle]

Originally Posted by silenthill

My MD said again today that i need to forgive my ex T, i understand that forgiving,but never forget,and forgiving doesn't mean what the person did was not wrong,,and i say, i can't forgive my self so how can i forgive ex T, and ex T doesn't need me to forgive her,after all she says i'm the one that planed all this,just to take her down( nice to know i have that power) so Would you or could you forgive if this was your ex T

I think there are different ways to look at forgiveness. You could forgive in the sense that you're willing to let go of all the anger and hurt that it caused because you don't want to let your xT have that type of control of your life for a moment longer.

You could also look at it from the perspective that what happened has happened, and you did your best in the situation and you're ready to move forward with the lessons and knowledge you've gained to help you in the future.

You don't have to forgive the T's actions to move on, in my opinion. It's more about forgiving yourself or letting yourself off the hook for all the feelings that the situation has brought up for you.

I still think that I was seriously wronged by a former T. I can't do anything to fix it and he'll go around thinking he was completely in the right. The hurt from the whole situation is still with me, but it is very muted now because I decided that I would take the lessons I learned and move on. I didn't want to be held hostage by the situation any longer.

It took me a long time though, and I was not wronged in a similar situation to you. It probably took me a good 2 years to really let go.

It will take time, but your intense feelings will eventually fade as you find a type of forgiveness.

[silenthill]

Thanks every one, your input on forgiveness is really helpful, here is some thing i think that in some ways holds me back from forgiving her,at first it was about what she did to me,and her other client,maybe if it would have stopped at that,i think forgiveness could have happened,and moving on would be lot easier,but it was what she did at the hearing,she took my words that i used in therapy in her office,and used them against me,words that didn't have any thing to do with the money that she borrowed from me,even the judge kept saying does this have any thing to do with the $ and her lawyer would say no, but xT and her lawyer kept using my words, my words should have stayed in the therapy room, she may own the paper that my words are on,but the words belong to me, after all isn't that what T's want their clients to do,trust them with our words. Sorry for going on and on,but it felt good to get it out!!

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by silenthill

Thanks every one, your input on forgiveness is really helpful, here is some thing i think that in some ways holds me back from forgiving her,at first it was about what she did to me,and her other client,maybe if it would have stopped at that,i think forgiveness could have happened,and moving on would be lot easier,but it was what she did at the hearing,she took my words that i used in therapy in her office,and used them against me,words that didn't have any thing to do with the money that she borrowed from me,even the judge kept saying does this have any thing to do with the $ and her lawyer would say no, but xT and her lawyer kept using my words, my words should have stayed in the therapy room, she may own the paper that my words are on,but the words belong to me, after all isn't that what T's want their clients to do,trust them with our words. Sorry for going on and on,but it felt good to get it out!!

So this trauma is still going on then. Take your time. Day by day at first. Then small, but really good things will start to happen. Weeks will become months.

Once you've accumulated enough good, and enough of you, then I would potentially revisit forgiveness.

I'm not sure one can forgive in an ongoing event.

Don't know though.

[Perna]

I think of forgiveness as a way of letting go of bad things that have happened in our lives. It helps me say, "Okay, this happened and it was horrible when it happened but it is not happening now and I can package it up now and give it to "Goodwill"." :-)

Forgiveness for me is a way of getting some distance and closure on things, of packaging it and putting a slightly different spin on it than it has had for me up to now. I think of some memories as discrete things. One of my good friends from high school and beyond (we're 62 now) had her "boyfriend" throw a brick at her in middle school and knock her front teeth out. It was sort of an accident; I forget whether they were just horsing around or if he was tossing it elsewhere and it hit her, etc., he certainly didn't "aim"/mean to hit her in the teeth! His parents had to pay for her expensive braces that brought all her other teeth "around", capped those two "new" front teeth, etc. I'm sure it was painful and a mess for quite awhile, several years, but think about it now; it's a "package"/a "story" with a beginning, middle, and end. That's sort of what I think of as forgiveness's job, to help provide that end.

To help myself with forgiveness, I do a little twist in the story, think of some good things that might have come about because of the bad situation. For my girlfriend, for example, she was probably going to have to have braces anyway and this way someone other than her parents paid for them. I had to have braces but did not learn that until I was 29 so had to take my own non-money out of my 401K to pay for them. Bummer. However, the good twist on that was that I started to learn to take care of myself and felt/still feel inordinately proud of myself for coming up with the money all by myself and not having to rely on my parents.

Think of all you've had to do, all you have experienced and worked through with getting rid of this therapist and getting back on track for yourself? We can't learn and grow without problems; if everything is going well we just sit back and let it go well but if we have problems, we have to "solve" them and in solving them we learn and grow. If you don't make mistakes, you can't learn. If you don't try, you can't learn and grow. You were tested and have passed through the testing; sure it was messy, ugly, and hateful but here you are, the other end! Maybe your ex-T "failed" you and ultimately herself and hasn't learned and grown but you have. Feel "sorry" for your ex-T as a person, she's not as good/mentally healthy as you are even! Let her go from your life, you don't want her in it anymore. You are working toward a wholly different, more healthy set-up that does not include her.

[InRealLife45]

Originally Posted by silenthill

My MD said again today that i need to forgive my ex T, i understand that forgiving,but never forget,and forgiving doesn't mean what the person did was not wrong,,and i say, i can't forgive my self so how can i forgive ex T, and ex T doesn't need me to forgive her,after all she says i'm the one that planed all this,just to take her down( nice to know i have that power) so Would you or could you forgive if this was your ex T

are you in the UK? I find it odd that your MD is preventing you from getting a therapist if youre in the US...

You really do need to find a new T, not everyone is going to be as wretched as your criminal of an ex-T. I think youd be hard pressed to find one as bad as the one youve gotten rid of.

Did she ever face criminal charges, or just the suspended license? bc that seems like a slap on the wrist to me.

[silenthill]

Originally Posted by InRealLife45

are you in the UK? I find it odd that your MD is preventing you from getting a therapist if youre in the US...

You really do need to find a new T, not everyone is going to be as wretched as your criminal of an ex-T. I think youd be hard pressed to find one as bad as the one youve gotten rid of.

Did she ever face criminal charges, or just the suspended license? bc that seems like a slap on the wrist to me.

No i'm in the USA, she was suspended for 10 years and can not get her license back until she pays me back,funny thing is she still has her office here in town and has her sigh still up that is a slap in my face

[InRealLife45]

Originally Posted by silenthill

No i'm in the USA, she was suspended for 10 years and can not get her license back until she pays me back,funny thing is she still has her office here in town and has her sigh still up that is a slap in my face

then what does your MD have to do with you getting a new therapist? you seriously need to work this out with someone, and someone who knows how to help your mind, not your body.

(sucks she wasnt punished more, seems to me she should be in jail for fraud/theft, something.)
and-YES I would forgive her. But not for her. Forgiveness lifts weight off the heart of the person doing the forgiving. YOU will feel better, step lighter, breathe easier, for not holding on to the resentment and anger she caused you. your continuing to be twisted in knots about her appalling behavior isnt hurting her anymore-its only hurting you.

if you can take the very difficult steps to forgiveness, I think you would feel leagues better, and doing that and moving on starts with getting yourself a great new t.

[Perna]

I think your energy is in there being spent on how you feel about this past/ended relationship. Forgiveness can often work as a pair of scissors to cut that stream going away from you so you can use it for other purposes and aren't still having someone steal your cable, so-to-speak :-) I like Echoes reframing ideas but some of them, like wishing "this had never happened" -- it did happen and a wish can't change anything. For me, forgiveness is a more proactive decision on my part that I have ended it for myself; the other person did what they did, hurt me badly at that time, but I have learned some good (albeit hard/painful) lessons from the experience and I can and will move forward as a result. . . without them!

I read some of your back story, and my heart goes out to you. You have been through a lot, and I am glad that you are staying the journey to heal. The bookForgive and Forget, by Lewis B. Smedes, was very helpful to my kiddo, and portions were helpful to me. My therapist read portions to me at a time I could not focus.

For me, I could not focus on forgiving the people that hurt me, but I was able to eventually let go of the hurt. So maybe, that translates into forgiveness. As I write this I feel nothing negative for those people, some that I have come to love. Best wishes to you.

The most creative power given to the human spirit is the power to heal the wounds of a past it cannot change. - L.B. Smedes

[precaryous]

Never, ever going to forgive abusive T's!