[feileacan]

I love to read about other people's therapy experiences. One thing that always puzzles me is when I read how people go in and they have so many things to talk, or maybe should I say that they want to talk and like to talk and they genuinely believe that anyone cares.

For me things have been quite the opposite from the very start (and we have the 4th anniversary very soon). I go in for days, weeks and months and I basically don't tell anything. I have seen my T for hundreds of hours and he basically still has no clue what's going on in my head. Sometimes I hear another person going to the room next door (my T's wife is also a therapist and sees her patients there). I hear how the person goes in and immediately starts talking. And I get annoyed and even angry perhaps. What is this person imagining? That she (or sometimes he) has so many important things to talk about and she really believes that anyone cares? What an arrogance! (I know it's rather envy). Once I shouted out loud that "shut up, no one cares anyway". Obviously I'm not allowed to do that anymore.

So, what goes on in my sessions. I go there and immediately after I step in, or perhaps a little bit before, I switch into a state, where no trust is possible, no wish to tell anything, no thoughts coming to my head. I sit down being a lump, staring out of the window without really seeing anything. I'm feeling ... what am I feeling, I don't know because I don't think and without thinking I would have no clue how I could feel.

Then T basically works hard the whole hour to drag words out of me, to drag me out from this state, but I don't make it easy. Anything he says or asks that could require an expression of liveliness or subjectivity from me, any questions about how I have been doing over the week-end, how do I feel or think about something, what something means to me, I block them immediately. I don't feel safe answering them (never really felt safe enough with anyone). I tell him that it's not your business, or why is important. If he suggests that I could feel something (sadness, disgust, whatever, probably something he is feeling in his countertransference at that moment) then I don't even bother thinking whether there could be any truth in it, I say immediately that I don't feel anything like that.

So what do we talk about them? Basically I just argue with him, I block him any way I can, and at the same time the desperation in my rises because I want to be together with him and yet just don't let myself. Every day after my session I try to imagine a state of being where I could be free with him, where I could let my mind wander and just tell him whatever comes to mind. I mean, I know intellectually that he is safe, I know that he cares, I know that he wants me to feel safe and held, he is very patient, he has never rejected me, I know he would never abandon me (I mean, sure, at some point he will retire too). But I don't feel trust, I don't feel comfortable. I don't want to do any intellectual talk about things - this is something I can do very well myself alone. Yet I'm apparently not able to relate to him emotionally either.

How can I drag myself out from there? Or maybe it is truly part of the process and the time we have had together just isn't enough yet? The money is not an issue either. I pay about 1/3 of my monthly income to him and it's a large amount for me but no, even that doesn't motivate me. I understand that I am never an adult in my sessions, there are different child states and these children, they don't really care about money. Yep, I sometimes talk about money in the context "I don't have to give you my words because I've already given you money and so you should first give me something back". He then tells me that I can't get if I'm unwilling to give ...

Sorry for the long post. I know that there are many very insightful people here, maybe some of them have the patience to read this through.

[feileacan]

Sorry, I guess the previous post wasn't still enough.

It seems like I'm in a constant opposition with him in the session. It dissolves basically immediately after I leave and then I feel regret about the wasted time. Sometimes I write him email from the "other side". And then, when he tries to bring those things up in the session I forbid him angrily. I tell him that he is not allowed to talk about those things. Sometimes, when he tries to engage with me or suggest something to attempt to relate better, I just get up and go to toilet, sometimes in the middle of his sentence. Sometimes, I just interrupt him in the middle of a sentence saying something completely pointless. And maximum 10 minutes after my session is over all this is gone and I'm a normal thinking well-behaving person again.

[Trippin2.0]

So why did you start seeing him?

[lucozader]

Originally Posted by Trippin2.0

So why did you start seeing him?

...and why are you still seeing him? There must be some reason for putting yourself through this, right? If you can pinpoint that, I think it's your key to working this out.

[unaluna]

Wow i am surprised to read all this, because from your posts, i thought you were my third twin in t.

First off, it reminds me of when my longterm t, many years ago, said to me regarding having children, "why would you deprive yourself of one of life's greatest pleasures?"

The other thing is - an easy relationship with your t is not necessarily something that just happens naturally. For me, i made a decision (after about 3 or 4 years) that i just wasnt going to fight my t any longer. I announced it to him, and i asked for his help in stopping it, as i had a habit of "just saying no" to any of his suggestions. Its a very hard habit to break.

Anyway, i wish you luck.

That sounds like a very, very difficult place to be. It is as though this angry version of yourself who feels completely worthless is in a battle with your rational self. Somehow his version of you takes over the session and prevents you from communicating with your therapist. It sounds incredibly frustrating.
I'm not sure you should be trying to drag yourself out of this state. It sounds as though those children really do need to be heard and accepted rather than fought against. If you don't allow the young feelings to be heard, I wonder if this would have echoes of your childhood for you? Were your feelings accepted or stifled by your caregivers? Perhaps now is the time to let those child states have their say so they can be integrated and accepted as part of you.
Would it be possible to explain this to your therapist in an email and devise a plan for working with the feelings in session? You could ask him not to raise the email in session and tell him why. It sounds like your adult self and your therapist need to get your heads together and work out how best to give these feelings space and acceptance.
It's tough work and it sounds like you're right in the midst of it

It sounds hard. Your therapist has the patience of a saint!! Do you sit up in sessions?

I understand that I am never an adult in my sessions, there are different child states a

Everyone has different experiences of child parts, but usually a young child is uninhibited. Is your adult self maybe holding back the child parts from expressing themselves? My child parts go on and on, not so much lately as they used to. Sometimes they are heard, other times feel rejected.

I used to be closed in too, but everything dissociated in 1 day and my whole cognitive structure changed. Now everything spills out. Of course I still hold back stuff in my therapy, but I normally spill out my feelings, most of them are how I feel about him, attachment feelings, rather than other areas of my life.

Do you think it's your defenses? I know having an OC cognitive type can be like having an outer/inner self. I see what looks like that cognitive style here and there on this forum.

I'm glad you are posting. It's interesting to hear what you have to say.

[feileacan]

Originally Posted by unaluna

The other thing is - an easy relationship with your t is not necessarily something that just happens naturally. For me, i made a decision (after about 3 or 4 years) that i just wasnt going to fight my t any longer. I announced it to him, and i asked for his help in stopping it, as i had a habit of "just saying no" to any of his suggestions. Its a very hard habit to break.

But this would mean that he would somehow win. And he would be probably pleased for me and I don't want to give him this feeling. I want to deprive him from any satisfaction from working with me. I don't know how I could accept him getting something good out of our work.

[cinnamon_roll]

Originally Posted by feileacan

But this would mean that he would somehow win. And he would be probably pleased for me and I don't want to give him this feeling. I want to deprive him from any satisfaction from working with me. I don't know how I could accept him getting something good out of our work.

So maybe you can start talk about this feeling. To find out why you don't want him to 'win'.

I'm pretty sure it's not so much about your T but about someone who was your parent/caregiver in your younger years... And about your younger self which wasn't seen/heard at the time and therefore is angry.

Pressure doesn't help. But maybe you as an adult could start to view your T as an ally to help your younger part/s to get their needs met - finally?

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by feileacan

But this would mean that he would somehow win. And he would be probably pleased for me and I don't want to give him this feeling. I want to deprive him from any satisfaction from working with me. I don't know how I could accept him getting something good out of our work.

This is really good work here. But its your inner child who is speaking, fighting with mother. Do you hear that? You dont need to tell it here, but think about your toilet training stories. Im STILL harping on mine!

[junkDNA]

could you possibly just be dissociating when you walk in there? i had a period of doing that, it comes and goes. i know exactly what you're describing. im not sure how to get out of it either but i have. it seems like at those times i was being triggered by being there in therapy and being there with my therapist. i also felt anger at him and would challenge everything he said, shut down upon the start and leave that way... often wondering why i even go there at all. i did start talking to him about that experience... it took a long time. i just fessed up to what was going on with me

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by feileacan

But this would mean that he would somehow win. And he would be probably pleased for me and I don't want to give him this feeling. I want to deprive him from any satisfaction from working with me. I don't know how I could accept him getting something good out of our work.

Easy solution: stop going. He can't be pleased for you, he can't get any satisfaction out of it, he can't get anything good out of it if you are not his client. You would win, by not playing the game.

Question is, is that what you really want?

Do you have this reaction to all therapists or just him?

[kecanoe]

I have sessions like this, although I haven't had the long stretch that you describe. But I do sometimes feel shut down/frightened/needy/angry/unsafe/defensive/desperate.

I don't know if you are even able to talk to t about it, but here are some things that can break the cycle for me.

T telling me a story. Me thinking about what color I feel and saying the color out loud. Holding a stuffed animal. Coloring how I feel (usually just a scribbled bunch of colors). Doing grounding exercises (even when I don't feel a need to be grounded, I interpret this as t caring how I feel and I can hear ts voice sounding safe). Imagining sitting by t (I like to think about sitting on the floor and kind of leaning on t's legs while he sits in his chair).

Also sometimes it helps me to say a single word, such as a feeling. I tell myself that its not going to get any easier. sometimes just saying that I feel like fighting is helpful.

Or perhaps try writing things down when you are not in session and then handing it to him. I have often shared journal stuff that I don't think I can say out loud. He reads my journal out loud so I can see his responses, and sometimes he responds while reading.

[Elio]

I see several good pieces of advice, suggestions, and support in all the previous posts. What has stood out for me is that concept of then he will "win". What are you "losing" if he wins?

For me it does become a conscious choice to share. I make the decision of the who, what, where, when I am going to share something and then I do stuff that makes it so I can't really back out... like emailing it right before session, or as in now, I write it in my journal and it gets handed over to T.

I've also started allowing different things to happen in session that are just experiences... so as my T is fond of saying, the hour is mine to do with as I wish, how do I want to spend the time. Granted there are limits; however, there are less than what I would have initially thought and feared. So, maybe doing other things, other forms of communication would be helpful, if you want help.

- physical movement while talking... walks, playing games, passing a ball back and forth between your hands or between you and T.
- sharing things that have meaning to you, music, art, poems, books
- changing how you sit in the room... sitting, laying, on the floor, standing, opposite chairs
- communicate through writing your thoughts while in session rather than verbally or perhaps as other suggested through drawing

One thing that has also worked for me is to say those random single words that do come through regardless of what they are or how the fit. For example, I might be telling T about something that happened and I start to shut down, start to hit the emotional stuff and not just the facts of the story. Either my head goes blank or so much is yelling in there that I don't want to say... then I'll say something like quicksand or ladder - it's really abstract.

But again, before any of these or other suggestions will work, you have to decide what you want, what you are trying to achieve by going. Cuz as ATAT said, you could stop going and then you'll "win" or would that be "losing"?

[ruh roh]

My first reaction when I read your post was...man, this sounds just like my family of origin: nothing you have to say is important, you are not important, no one cares about you. So basically, my take is that you are really angry, to the point of being emotionally abusive toward yourself. There is no win here for anyone, especially not you, but I'm guessing you know that and that's why you're sharing this.

Either your therapist is just not right for you, in which case, it might be worth trying another one, or you could take a big leap and risk letting him know you want to change your experience in therapy, even if it means he gets something out of doing a good job. People have come up with lots of great suggestions to do different things during session, but like Elio said, you've got to really be clear about what you want.

[unaluna]

I agree with ruh-roh. To be able to think, "i dont want you to win" is terrific. You know i always say, follow the fantasy. What would happen, how would you feel, if you did something that let him win? Or what if you just tell him, "i dont want you to win", and see what he comes back with?

Dont keep this treasure to yourself. You shared it with us. Yes, he is in your transference, but make him your partner in this endeavor as you have made us. im so excited for you

But this would mean that he would somehow win. And he would be probably pleased for me and I don't want to give him this feeling. I want to deprive him from any satisfaction from working with me. I don't know how I could accept him getting something good out of our work.

THIS, imo, is a very important statement/realization that you've made. I hear how vulnerable you feel and how afraid you are to tell your T what you are thinking --I've been there myself, although not as intense. I wonder where your feelings of not wanting another to get something from having a relationship with you? I'm also glad you are posting there and hope you find a resolution to this problem. One thought I have is that this part of you is protecting you, not allowing you to get close to this therapist (authority figure?) I could be totally wrong. Please keep us posted if you want to.

Originally Posted by feileacan

But this would mean that he would somehow win. And he would be probably pleased for me and I don't want to give him this feeling. I want to deprive him from any satisfaction from working with me. I don't know how I could accept him getting something good out of our work.

Aren't you fighting yourself though?

[here today]

Originally Posted by unaluna

This is really good work here. But its your inner child who is speaking, fighting with mother. Do you hear that? You dont need to tell it here, but think about your toilet training stories. Im STILL harping on mine!

Yes, it does sound like good work, and why not do it here if this feels like a better place to do it? PC works better for me and I no longer even feel one-down here more than half the time!! T's weren't safe for me to do anger work with, maybe your current T isn't either? Took FOREVER for me realize that though, that it was them, not me.

[awkwardlyyours]

Originally Posted by feileacan

I mean, I know intellectually that he is safe...

But I don't feel trust, I don't feel comfortable.

This really stood out for me. Likely because when I was trying to figure stuff out with my former T, I got some incredibly wise advice on how an emotional / felt sense of trust / comfort with a T isn't something that you can think your way to. It's either just there or not there.

That's not to say that it's there entirely and in absolute terms from the very first session onwards but I've found that without at least some sense of it -- at least to the extent of being able to believe for oneself that there may come a time when I can trust this person with X thing -- it's pretty much impossible to do any in-depth therapy.

From your description, it sounds like there's a lot of regression but the T doesn't seem to be able to break through -- from a purely pragmatic perspective, I'd say four years is a heckuva long time for a T to not be able to make any inroads. Even if it's not so much a lack of skill, it sounds like the T may have run out of ideas?

I can imagine the depth of the attachment to this T but perhaps it's time to at least consider looking for a new T?

[velcro003]

feilacan: I won't pretend that I can completely relate to what you posted, but what I do understand (and see a correlation) is the need to stay with a T WAY past the time it probably should have ended.

With my previous T, I never felt comfortable enough to bring up any real feelings, especially towards her. I was constantly worried she was going to "fire" me because I was so frustrating and boring. This went on for 5.5 years. The first year-ish, I had to use the bathroom "urgently," before every session, and was completely nauseous until we got going.

After that, I still needed the bathroom, but at least the nausea passed! To me this was an improvement, and must have meant something.

After 5.5 years, and me finally realizing that we were going nowhere, and I was never going to get the guts to say I was slightly terrified of her, I quit.

I took a year off from therapy, and decided to try again.

With my current T, she "got" me in some ways that if previous T ever saw, I never heard. She was younger, and willing to speak her mind, and I felt a tenuous connection. We are almost on 2 years, and while there has been a lot of frustration on my part, she stays positive and hopeful for me. She pushes me, but also lets me know it is okay where I am at.

It was such a huge difference. Within 6 months, she probably knew as much or more about me than my previous T did in 5.5 years! My prev T was a lesbian, and sexual orientiation confusion is something I am struggling with, but my current T who is straight (or at least married to a man), has talked to me more about my struggles than prev T. And that is purely because I felt that connection.

What I am trying to say is, you really have tried. I get it. I tried so hard, too. Maybe give another T a shot? I wouldn't have given this advice if it hadn't happened to me, and I was pretty jaded.

[cinnamon_roll]

Originally Posted by ruh roh

Either your therapist is just not right for you, in which case, it might be worth trying another one, or you could take a big leap and risk letting him know you want to change your experience in therapy, even if it means he gets something out of doing a good job. People have come up with lots of great suggestions to do different things during session, but like Elio said, you've got to really be clear about what you want.

This really stood out to me. Maybe try someone else and see how that feels? Four years of "mindbattles" is an awful long time. And you are still seeing him. So what is it that draws you back to his office every week? The fact that so much seems familiar ie a pattern that you know and recognize? Maybe he simply isn't the right fit for you, to get through to you.

Or you take a leap of faith and start talking about those feelings and see what happens... It'll be not the end of the world, I promise.

[waterlogged]

I have a slightly different take.

I've seen my psychoanalytic T for 3 years, with varying frequency from 1-4x/week (currently at 4x/week). I have had a VERY strong negative transference at times, which was really really hard for a year or 2. We finally got into a bit of a rupture in which I felt like she was hammering me with interpretations....and as I thought about it, I had made myself like a nail....hard, unyielding, sharp, pointed. And as she started to see how sensitive and fragile I can be, and as I started to try to be more open and less "nail-like" - we started moving forward. I'm not sure I would've gotten there if I hadn't come to really agree with modern psychoanalytic theory. For awhile, I do think my intellectual understandings served as a kind of holding environment.

The fact is that I would have difficulty establishing trust and a working alliance with any T. I have pretty intense early relational trauma in my history, and my mother has even more intense trauma in her very early history. I've had different Ts, and none of them got past the very very superficial places. What if you went in and either read a letter or stayed in a really adult mode and talked about your therapy?

[feileacan]

Ok, so I first want to thank you very much for your thoughts. I want to give more detailed answers to the questions raised but maybe I should give a bit more context first.

I have seen my T almost four years but we actually had a year long break. I left for a year after I had seen him for two years. Then I came back and started seeing him again, since last August. While I was away, I saw another T (both he and my current T are psychoanalysts), with whom the start was difficult as expected but somehow we connected very well. I was very sad to leave him but these were the circumstances and there was really nothing I could do about it.

I came back and started to see my T again and basically everything had changed. Although I believe our work from the first two years was helping me to connect more easily with the other T because I knew what psychoanalytic therapy is and what can I expect, after coming back it seems that we basically had to start from zero again. Or perhaps even from below zero because now I had contrast - as I wrote before, my T is very patient, he tolerates a lot, never gets defensive, never rejects, never punishes, I still had this experience with this other T who had some qualities in his personality that my T doesn't have. I can't even put them into words. But he was also a writer and a poet. I have never valued poems but I read one of his book of poems just out of curiosity and I cried because his words touched me deeply. And I gave his book to my H to read and he too cried. He said I was lucky to meet such a person.

So, I came back, I started to see my T again and perhaps mostly due to this contrast and because I was basically mourning the loss of the relationship with this other T the current situation emerged. I am not mourning any more. I of course remember this other T and we will keep in touch (not yet though, I decided that I will not email him before one year has passed) but I'm not sad about it anymore for quite a long time already. But the negative transference remains.

I should also say that the possibility that my T is not the best for me has been discussed several times over the last months. In fact, inspired by the responses I got from this thread, I talked about it again just today. The T didn't have time to say what he thinks because the time was up but he has to say something tomorrow. In order to really try with someone else I would have to be really certain that this is realistically better than staying with this T. This decision must come from my adult part obviously who is capable of weighing the pros and cons. So far I'm not convinced that starting with someone else would be the best choice.

The change of T-s is also complicated because there are not that many options. You could consider it my kink but I only consider seeing psychoanalysts. I don't want to gamble with the possibility of ending up with an unprofessional and incompetent therapist and for me seeing a psychoanalyst is the best guarantee for that due to their very rigorous training. However, in the country I live there are only a handful of analysts and even fewer of them are men (I feel I'm not ready for women yet). So this means that if I would want to try with someone else then there is precisely one possible option and I would be willing to try it in case I'm sure that the things with my T don't work out. Obviously I'm not sure yet.

[ruh roh]

Thanks for the further explanation. Context is everything. It disadvantages the listener (we here at pc) and you, but it's interesting that even without this information, the arrows have generally pointed toward finding another therapist.

Analysis is really demanding work. I tried it a few times and couldn't take it. I wonder if the one you saw for the year in between worked better because he was slightly more engaging or revealing of himself? I only say that because you mentioned his personality. For me, in doing such deep work, I have to have a sense of the therapist as a human being. Not that analysts aren't human, but there is a kind of confrontation with the self that takes place due to the void or vacuum of analysis--again, I found it to be brutal.

You've done a good job of boxing yourself in by limiting other options, but I understand that if you want analysis, you want analysis, and this is what comes of that. I'm glad to know you had one good experience with it and I hope you consider that a lot of the success had to do with the analyst and your connection to each other. It's so important.