In Session Today: Part IV

Thank you everyone for your concerns and perspective. I agree that the situation wasn't handled in the best way, but I feel there's a lot of nuance I may not have expressed that influenced why my take is different than yours.

I'm going to go a little against the grain and say that I think he handled it as best as he could. He might have overreacted a bit, but I believe he did it because he cared. Since it was only your second session he doesn't know you all that well. He can't tell yet if he can trust you that you are going to be OK. I'm glad that he protected you, even though he probably knew that you might end up angry at him. I think you found a good one.

Their so called caring does not get to trump my autonomy. I would simply lie to them, get out, and never go back to that one.

My writeup of my bonus half-hour session today will make more sense if I first post the e-mail exchange. Background: T will be out of town next week, but declined to say where or if work vs. fun when I asked. Which apparently triggered something in me...Note, he said yesterday that he wasn't leaving till Sunday, and implied e-mail would be OK, both before that and during trip.


"Hi Dr. T,

So, you said you hoped the whole "nothing triggering" thing wouldn't change after 10 minutes. Well...it lasted 2 hours or so. Feeling upset/sad now and trying to figure out why.

I think it's partly that you wouldn't share why (or where?) you were going out of town. From past therapy experiences, if ex-T was going to be away, I might ask, "Work or fun?" And she'd say "I'm going to a conference," or, "I'm taking my grandson on a trip to New York City." With MC, we've asked, and he's said, "I'm taking my daughter to see some colleges" or (recently) "I'm going to a conference." Me: "Someplace warmer, I hope?" MC, "Yes, Tampa."

So I think I'm just used to getting responses to those sorts of questions. Not looking for some sort of details, just general ("conference," "headed to West Coast," or maybe, in your case, "[sport he plays semiprofessionally] competition"). Are you choosing not to disclose for your sake--privacy, or maybe you don't trust me with the information? Or are you doing it more for mine, like you don't know if it could potentially bother/upset me? (Particularly because of how some of MC's disclosures affected me.) Or both? Or is it just a blanket policy you have that has nothing to do with individual clients? Again, this is a case of what I'm used to with previous therapists vs. what I'm experiencing now. It's different, so it's confusing.

I think there might be more to it than that though...maybe it's also a bit tied up in the "what's your protocol if something happens to you" question. Because even though, statistically, people are much more likely to be in an accident/hurt close to home, I tend to have this huge fear about people's safety when they go away, going back to my parents--when I was a kid, I was convinced they'd die on this one New England trip when I was staying with my grandfather--and, for example, this one ex flying to Europe a month after 9/11, etc. So this is just a general fear of mine. (And maybe why I'm a bit afraid of travel personally?)

And I guess...on a less morbid note...I feel like I'm going to miss you while you're gone. I hope that's OK, both to feel that and to tell you that.

So...OK, think I needed to get all that out, the thoughts, the fears, etc. Short reply is fine--even just a sentence to say you read all this and are OK with it--longer, paid reply fine, too.

Thanks,

LT"

T's response:
"I'll go with the (free) short reply. All is well, and that's kind of you to say that you'll miss me while I'm away. As you say, therapists are quite different in their approach to sharing information about our lives outside the therapy office. Hopefully you will see it as I do - my healthy space between what happens in my office and out of my office. I hope you have a fabulous week!"

You have amazing stamina in that you keep going back. I really wish you could find a t who can “keep up” with you. I am amazed at how many clueless t’s you have had to endure. And if memory serves me correctly, you are in a region that should be thick with shrinks. Do you think Info will last? Do you have another eye out for a potential new t? Of course you are trying hard to make this work. A checkbox on a consent form is a great idea.

I have this French existentialist therapist (Piaf) I saw twice in January and have an appointment with next week (she's been out of town).

She seems smart, but I obviously don't know her well yet.

I relate a whole lot with your reaction . When my T said I'll be out of town to cancel my appointment, and REFUSED to say another word even though we had just gone through a grueling session of him imploring me to trust him, I felt like a fuse blew in therapy. It feels like such a power play. I am usually appeasing, but I was like- Oh are you in the CIA? Witness protection? My T is much much more "authoritative ( how he describes himself ) than your new T seems bc he would never let me have extra time even half a session. Your T is invested in you, even if this is a conflict.

Part 1 of 2.
Bonus half-hour session with T this morning to address my reaction to his e-mail response regarding his going out of town (see a few posts above for that). I was having a panic attack on the drive there, felt like I was going to be sick. He retrieved me a minute early.

Went back and sat down. I thanked him for seeing me, he thanked me for being willing to come to office (I'd initially requested phone call, since I didn't know he'd be in today).

He said, "I really have no idea why you wanted to meet today." I started crying, said it was mostly about his e-mail response. He said he wasn't sure what in that I was reacting to. I said partly the ending, the "Have a fabulous week." He looked confused. I said, "It's like I'm really struggling here, and you're all, 'Have a fabulous week!'" He said, "I didn't realize you were struggling that much." Me: ??? "It's mostly stuff about your going away. I thought I made that clear in the e-mail." He asked if there was stuff I hadn't brought up in session. I said how some of it didn't really hit me till I got home. Or else it was right at the end of session, so couldn't really discuss.

I forget when exactly he said this part, but was near beginning. The e-mails and texts (where I requested a phone call) from last night came up. He said how the e-mail had been fine, but he found the texts to be "intrusive." I said, "I'm sorry." He said, "It's OK, I'm not mad. But I just wanted to let you know because I said before I would be straight with you if something bothered me, since I know that's something you worry about." I thanked him and said I was confused, because he said text was for scheduling, and I thought of phone calls as scheduling, since I hadn't expected him to be in office today (he works some Sundays, but not generally Saturdays). He said it wasn't that, it was his phone going off in the evening, so during his personal time. I said I made sure it was before 10, since I thought 10 was his time boundary. He said, true, but I should have e-mailed, because that he can choose to check when he wants, but if his phone goes off, he feels compelled to check it and respond. That he tries to keep work and home separate. I think I apologized again, and he said was OK, just letting me know how he felt.

He asked me more about what I wanted to talk about. I said another thing was how he'd said in the e-mail that it was "kind" of me to say I'd miss him. He asked why that bothered me. "What were you hoping I'd say? Did you hope I'd say 'I'll miss you, too'?" Me: "No! I definitely wasn't expecting you to say that!" T: "OK, what should I have said?" Me: "I mostly just wanted to know that it was OK that I was feeling and sharing that with you. So just something like, "I understand why you're feeling that, and it's OK." He replied, "But that sounds harsher to me than 'It's kind of you to say.'" Me: "I think of 'It's kind' as the response to, 'That's a nice shirt.' This was me expressing something I was scared to express." T: "Oh, I didn't realize you were that worried about it." (I forget what I said there, but I should have said, "Um, that's why I said in the e-mail that I was hoping it was OK to feel and share that with you...")

I was having so much trouble getting the words out, kept crying, panicking. I apologized a couple times, and he said it was OK. T looked at my hands and said, "You're shaking. Are you really this anxious talking about all this?" Me: "Yes." T: "Are you afraid something bad is going to happen in this session?" Me: "Maybe? I don't know. I'm just scared."

I said I think much of this is because I'm trying to separate from MC now, too...and I guess ex-T. He said that made sense, since they were big supports for me. I said something else about MC, how I feel nothing for him right now like not anger, sadness, or love. And that was hard, like a loss. He asked if it felt like more than a typical loss would feel like for me. I said yes...how it felt like there was this connection there that was gone. "Like I could feel his caring for me all the time. I could feel the connection. And this is going to sound cheesy, but it's like, I felt him there in my heart. And that seems to be gone now." I was sobbing during this. T was just looking at me compassionately during this--I forget if he said anything. Then I said, "It's just like there's this emptiness now, this void..."

I then added, "I don't think I'm replacing him with you in that space either. Because I still feel the emptiness. And it was a different thing with him, like this whole other...I don't know, a thing that...what's the word I'm looking for here...ballooned? No that's not it. Snowballed? Maybe. That it just kept growing into its own entity. Like with me caring a lot about him, too. And now it's just gone."

Will end part 1 on that cheery note. Part 2 to come...

FWIW, Daisy, I agree with blue.
I mostly have one important question: DID you go home and SH? Because, distressing as it all was...if, in the end, you didn't end up going home, falling apart, and SH-ing, then that's something to just be curious about.

If it were me, while I would've found it horrendously distressing, I also would feel a sense of gratefulness that he cared... because I do think he cared. Cares. And he didn't just say it -- he lived it with his actions.

I hope you're feeling better.

I also agree with blue.
I have had no opportunity to do so.
I am feeling much better, thank you. There were some medical concerns that contributed to the events I recounted this morning.

Bonus T Session: Part 2 of 2
I said how T probably realizes this, but my strong reaction to his going away isn’t all about him. Like, his trip is triggering other stuff for me. He said he suspected that, but it was good to hear me say it, too. I said it was like I was projecting other stuff onto him, or I guess...transferring it. Which led to me reluctantly using the term transference regarding him, since, I mean, that's basically the definition of it...But I said I wasn't sure what sort of transference it was (thankfully, he didn't try to further pursue that--I would NOT want to have that conversation right before he went out of town).

We talked more about his going out of town and why I wanted to know where he was going. I said I think part of it is concerns about his safety I'd want to know if he was going someplace dangerous, like with political unrest. He said, "Like Cameroon." I said yes. He said, "As compared to my going someplace like Albuquerque." I agreed, but that said I knew stuff could happen anywhere, so it's a false sense of security.

He said how part of why he doesn’t disclose that much about himself is it seems like I’ll (or other clients will) want to “take care of him.” Like if I know more stuff, I’ll tailor what I talk about around that. If I know he likes certain things, might talk about them to sort of entertain him. And that would take the focus away from me. That he doesn't need to be taken care of by his clients.

T brought up the thing again about me trying to figure him out, how it's like he's this 1,000-piece puzzle, and I have 80 pieces so far. I said how I tend to do that with everyone, that it gives me a sense of control, maybe. But I think it’s probably a false sense of control. I said, "Like...maybe if I think I have someone completely figured out, then they can’t abandon me?" He said that's something to explore more in future sessions.

He said it seems I’m especially that way (trying to figure them out) with people who I think of as “nurturers,” who would take care of me, and he put himself in that category. I said yeah…so that obviously comes from childhood. He said it also it seems that I seek others’ approval, especially from “nurturers." I said that definitely comes from my mom.

T said doing that Imago exercise that he gave me worksheets for earlier in the week should help with some of the motivations behind those things, like the figuring people out stuff. Apparently, he’ll take the info from those worksheets and there’s this Mad Libs sort of thing, where you fill in stuff from each section to make a narrative (he didn’t give me those sheets).

He also suggested I read the book that all that stuff is based on, Getting the Love You Want (which I ordered when I got home). He said it's meant for couples, but explores a lot of childhood stuff, too. And it talks about how we tend to look for partners that have similar traits as our caregivers, then try to work out stuff from childhood through them. But that we can't really work it out if we're using childlike techniques (or something like that). And because they're different people than our caregivers. I said that was interesting because in a past MC session, I think MC had me describing the traits I wanted in a partner? And he said it sounded more like I was looking for a protector and caregiver than an equal partner. T seemed intrigued by that.

Somewhere in there, he asked if I journaled, and I said I used to a long time ago, but don't anymore. That my journaling ends up more posts on the forum. He suggested I take some of those posts and put them in a Word document so I can put some of the insights together, to have something to look back at. I said that was a good idea and could maybe be a project for next week.

Adding something I forgot: Also in there, he mentioned my fear about his dying. He said, "If that would happen, you'd get through it. You'd be sad--and I appreciate in advance that sadness--and you'd have to find a new therapist, but you'd do that and you'd get through it." I said I knew that, but still hard to think about.

It was right on the half hour. He gave me an inquisitive look and asked if this had helped. I said it had, that I wasn't sure at the start, but it had ended up being helpful. And that I was definitely glad I hadn't sent him the e-mail response I'd been writing.

I went over to his desk and paid. He stood up and said, "I really do hope you have a good week." (reflecting the e-mail--thankfully, he refrained from saying "fabulous" this time!). I said, "Thanks, you too." Then he said he was following me out to the waiting room to get his next client, which he never does, but I think it was because we went like 2 minutes over--he usually goes though full hour though. (It was a couple, they looked at me--I'm sure I looked a wreck--looked at him, asked him if he needed a few minutes, but he said he was fine.)

Still feeling generally OK about session and about T, hopefully it will stick!

Oh Lt attachment issues really are so hard to explain to other people. It sounds like your t gets it though. I’m glad it went well.

Thanks, Growly. I feel like I'm teaching him a lot about client attachment. Not sure how he hasn't figured some of that out in 15 years in private practice...I can't possibly be his first really attached client, especially because one of his areas of focus is teens/young adults. And I imagine that age group is prone to attachment... Maybe most clients just don't talk about it? He seems open to learning and working with me, which I think is important.

Ok I’m going to try to capture the essence of my emergency session last night. I was really out of it when I walked in. T thought I was a little dissociative which doesn’t happen to me very often. I told him how I had cried at various points during the day but at that moment I felt numb and can’t access anything.

He seemed more put together, formal (oh crap) and even dressed a little sharper than his usual casual look. He started out pretty formal putting on his authority voice. Again, worrisome. He says how talking about another client in a negative way was a mistake on his part that he won’t do again. Then he panicked me with talking about tightening the boundaries. He said that talking about my friends and family seems to hurt you and I don’t want to hurt you. I asked if this change was permanent that I could understand if he wanted to back off of those things for awhile but forever? He said forever is a long time and he readjusts boundaries as needed. He doesn’t think super tight boundaries are for everyone either. So, still worried.
Asked about other things and he still sees the value in the driving, the occasional contact between sessions and hugs are still ok until I say they are not That kinda made me feel better. That he is only tightening the boundary issues that are problematic. It did worry me though that he may not take me into one of his DBT groups because seeing him be kind to people who are not me is hurtful to me But isn’t that real life? I’m hoping he does not bar me forever from his group.
I’m apologizing too much during this session and he says something off the wall like I’m going to be like bunny foo foo and gently bop you on the head if you keep apologizing
Im still unhappy, but he asks if I want a hug and I take it. Then I burst into tears actual sobbing. And apologized again. Before he pulls me back in for a deeper hug he puts his hand on my head gently and does something between stroking my head and mussing up my hair And says under his breath “oh bunny foo foo”. I get a really long hug as I cry. I’ve been wanting something like that for a long time. I know this all might sound infantalizing to others I but I crave this badly.
We both sit back down and he asks I want to try a grounding exercise. I say maybe later but I need to keep talking. I don’t know if he understands why all of this upset me I tried to explain that my connections to people are so fragile. He and I were rock solid for weeks then this. I even start to feel paranoid that he is intentionally trying to hurt me or screw with my emotions. I told him not to let me quit so easily. He said he did not but can’t stop me either. He said that it wouldn’t be like losing other patients that it would deeply affect him. I told him he means a great deal to me and if I threaten to quit it is because I’m in this strange state where he feels hostile to me.
I still wanted to talk about the gift from his other patient. He kept saying that she was inappropriate and I never am. Not my point. I felt like he was trying to tell me something by telling me that story. He says he’d never be that indirect. He would just say what he means. I said that it felt like he was telling me that having warm feelings for your therapist is kind of gross. At some point he paused and was silent and said “oh.” And more silence. He says I get it now. You were putting yourself in her shoes only you know more than she knows. I was thinking “finally! He might actually get it. He said feelings themselves just are, not right or wrong just actions he would call out. I said that I get attached to all my therapists all in different ways. I mean I love you, hoping he is taking this in the spirit in which it is meant. I could never hurt someone’s family. He then said if you ever were to develop sexual feelings for him that we could talk about it, that we can talk about anything. I think he gets that he made it unsafe to talk about taboo subjects.
At some point during this cringey conversation I tore off a cuticle. ATaT says that it isn’t a session unless you punch a chair. I say it isn’t a session unless someone is bleeding.
He gets out the first aid kit. I get rid of the blood but he puts on the ointment and bandaid. I sometimes hate myself for wanting this care so much. But it is so caring
He gets me to laugh at some point and gives me another squishiest toy and this one is ridiculously pliable. It can flatten out comepletely. I flattened him in my hand and said “I’ll be just fine” we both laughed. Got multiple enveloping hugs at the end. I needed all of this and he really is trying to keep things safe.

Actually, I think teens and young adults are likely a lot less prone to attachment :\

Idk I craved it very badly as a teen but did everything possible to hide it. Or to pretend it was stupid and why would anyone want that. But if a caring adult put an arm around me I was a marshmallow on the inside and a porcupine on the outside

Holy cow. How many hugs total? I'm jealous lol

I am like you in the sense if my t had a group I'd wanna go but once i saw him with the others... i would wall out.

Im glad it went well over all.

Hm, interesting...I got attached to some people as a teen, so I guess I just generalized my own experiences... Maybe he works with teens/young adults to avoid the attachment stuff then...and couples (though...that didn't stop me from being attached to MC). I doubt his sport psychology clients get particularly attached, but you never know.

Interesting...I don't know why I had assumed that. Well, probably because of my own experiences...

You might end up having these real life-sounding reactions and stories with him because you, yourself, are realistic and not demanding anything else.

I don't know if it can ever be accurate but, based on your posts Growly, you never struck me as someone needing DBT. It is also interesting that you tend to be drawn to Ts trained in CBT and DBT.... while contemplating psychodynamic. I don't want to make an interpretation, of course

Actually I spent 20 years doing psychodynamic therapy which I can say saved my life. I don’t think I could have started with cbt or dbt. I only changed modalities because I needed new therapists when I moved states. Other criteria were more important to me like having a male t, a warm style and personality that takes my insurance. I see lots of value in psychodynamic therapy

Yes but it may not have been accident that you sought out those other modalities recently. I'll explain. I've been a very introspective person in my whole life - psychodynamics is just natural for me and, if I got into therapy young, it would obviously have been my choice and a passion for a long time. The thing though is that, at middle age (~40) I am still not managing well some important practical issues - like you, driving, dating, and also finances for me. When I started therapy at ~40, it quickly became a serious and everyday distraction from the practical issues of my life. I would get wound up and analyze myself and therapy to death on a daily basis - yet no or little advance in the areas I most wanted to improve. This (admittedly) subjective experience is why I feel a need to respond to posts like yours. I just wonder if we keep the right focus?

I'm glad you feel better after your session, growly.

It does hit a tender spot with me right now, the things that therapists think but don't say or share, so when kashi shared judgy thoughts about another client, I took it personally. Funny how that works. I've always wondered if my therapist has critical thoughts about clients, so I asked her once and she said she generally is just trying to focus on why the person is there and what they need from her, but that there was this one time several years ago that a client mentioned really liking Sarah Palin and my therapist said she had this though flit across her mind, Sarah Palin? Really? But then refocused back on what the client was there for. I think it would crush me if she'd said something mean about a client.

Wow yes driving, dating, finances all issues that apply to me too. I feel like it was a happy accident that I found a fantastic cbt therapist when living in CA. As a teen I was in a group home setting tied to a psychiatric hospital that had a definite bad attitude about any therapy that was not psychodynamic.

I believe someone there actually told me “only unintelligent people do well in cbt or dbt”. Which is absolute crap, but I carried that bias for years.

There are skills in cbt and dbt that you don’t always learn in psychodynamic. The downside to psychodynamic is to be focused too much on the past, too much on an illness mindset, and dismissing of practical goals.

Thank you for pointing this out!

I agree with you on this! His negative thoughts and feelings about other clients, although human are judgemental and hurtful. Every time he shared those feelings with me I kept wondering if he ever felt that way about me too. “That could be me” is the refrain repeating in my head.

Kashi now recognizes how destructive this is. At first he denied that the word creepy had any correlation to the feeling of disgust. No way he said. Ok then I challenged him on the word creepy being very very judgemental. That’s where he conceded.

My old long term t used to say I can be mad at you and still love you. I hope that thought will help you as it helps me. They are human and don’t just feel one way about us.