[Mouse_]

I am so confused. I have just come from T and feel totally confused and worried. I told T about this problem I have with people. ie, This woman at work whom I've always got on with and liked said something a couple of days ago that has turned me off her. I said I'm trying to see her how i normally see her, but its hard. It was when we were talkinga bout womens rights in Pakistan and her husband is indian and her english and I was taken back by her comments as she was supporting the idea that woman should be kept in their place. Now T said though she too would have disagreed with that view, it would be "mad" to tell this person that I no longer like them becuase of whta they said. That the feeling of disappointment I have is an internal process and not an external one and if for instance I was to say to someone, oh I don't like you now because of what you said made me feel this way, that would be maddness and pyscotic. I said I had no intention of telling this woman how I feel, but what would be wrong with saying to someone that you felt let down now because of what they said? why is that mad? T said if they had abused me personally then yes, its an external event, I told T I feel the whole session we were "missing" each other. I really cant get what shes saying. I did say I realised I was giving this other person my power, but T said your not, its internal. that I have no resislence to being let down and so this feeling of devastation is inside me. I KNOW THAT, but I still connect the feeling with the person who said the disappointing words. But T said that would be maddness to blame the person. I said I'm not blaming them, but I can't seperate what they said to how I feel, then we seemed to be going round in circles and T said its internal process. I mean if I said I heard voices outside of me that made me feel let down, then yeah thats mad. I'm afraid to talk to anyone now incase I am mad and didn't know it. I wouldn't say to this woman you made me feel such and such wiht your views on women because thats not the kind of relationship we have. AM I mad here? is it mad to not like someone the same way anymore if they say something you disagree with? I could lie and say It hasn't bothered me and I see this person in the same way as I always have done, but I can't, I keep thinking about what they said and it makes me almost fear them I guess. Oh heck, maybe this does sound a bit pyshotic.

[Perna]

Other people can't make you feel. You feel from the inside. Somthing outside of you is outside of you. It is not responsible for your feelings. If you listen to the news and don't like what you hear, do you dislike the newscaster? No, because it's just "stuff" and unrelated to you. If some stranger says, "Your mother wears combat boots" (US expression) do you pay it another thought? No, because it's a stranger. If someone you know says something to/about you, especially someone you like or love (or hate or fear), things change because of the relationship, even if the "words" are the same. So you are feeling because of the relationship on your insides not because of the words from the outside.

If T says she cares about you and is there for you, you feel good. If T says she's leaving, going to be away, you feel bad. As you know now, that's not about your T. If a friend has an idea or opinion that is not your own or that you wish you had or that sounds "crazy" the feelings you feel are about you; you don't like the opinion or are jealous or afraid that if you look at the crazy thought you might feel crazy too. The other person should be "allowed" to express whatever they wish, feel what they wish and hopefully we're always interested, wanting to know what they think and feel, etc. (like T's do for us) but that is not our thinking and feeling and not liking someone because of their stray opinion (it's not an "action", she didn't start helping herd all women into homes and lock the door so they had to stay in the kitchen with their toddlers around them) especially when it's the first time you've heard it and you don't have details or discuss it with her and she has no idea of your thinking, etc. is. . .

There's lots of people and lots of experiences. Who knows what hers has been and what her reference points are? What she means exactly? I met a Pakistani woman this summer who had moved with her family as a child to London and when she was 15, she and her 6 sisters were all shipped back to Pakistan and into arranged marriages! Her husband was abusive (as her parents, especially her father had been) and he used her wonderful English and made her teach in Pakistan. Eventually she was able to get him to agree to move to the United States and they did. Once they got their citizenship she grabbed her children and was out of there to a women's shelter and filing for divorce so fast it made his head spin :-) She's been planning that for years! But if I were to decide that all Pakistani men were abusive. . . that would be "crazy" wouldn't it? But that's her experience (and she's Pakistani!) and mine, indirectly. You have a different knowledge/experience/beliefs about women than your friend. I suspect you feel "threatened" like someone is trying to change your beliefs or might have a valid point to make that you don't want to be true? It's kind of like if T were to tell you, "Your mother left you" before you were able to "hear" that; you'd "hate" her for it. But she would not have changed and the words would not be less true, etc. but your internal feelings would be different. I think that's what T is trying to get you to recognize; that the woman, herself, is still friendly/nice, etc. but you don't like the words. Kind of like throwing out the baby with the bath water?

[Mouse_]

Perna, Perna, Perna, I'm going to cut and paste that reply. It was amazing! Thanks

[Mouse_]

I also think it all comes down to not being able to tolerate disasppointment. I hate disappointment, that will feel me with rage quicker than anything.

Well, first I'd like to say I commend you on the work you are doing! I think you're asking and talking about very pertinent things-- things that are in your day to day life, and in doing this I think it can lead to a new understanding of yourself.

If I may, I'd like to respectfully say I think your T. is being a bit judgemental(saying it's "mad" to think in such a way)-- but perhaps she feels in doing so it will push you to further challenge yourself.

I don't consider your thinking of your co-worker is psychotic or anything like that-- I do very similar thinking myself. I've found that I subconsciously have expectations of others-- like say for example: there's a certain neighbor I hold in high esteem because they help all other neighbors, keep their property well groomed and clean, but then I find out they don't believe in recycling their household products(like- paper and plastic). I hear them say that it's silly and a waste of time to do that. Well, I think that my expectations of how I thought of them are altered-- they aren't in the category I put them in! That upsets me-- like they have let me down. But really-- it was my expectation all along-- it's not like they told me that they recycle and then they dont. It was my own belief I put on them. So, in a way, I've let my own self down for expecting them to be a certain way-- they didn't let me down-- though it does feel that way.

Could it be that you had put this co-worker in a particular mindset and then when that was altered it kind of put that part of your world off balance? Some of us were let down when wee little ones-- the expectations that are rightfully expected weren't fulfilled -- it hurt and caused damage. Maybe-- like me, you are fearful of subconscious expectations still not being met?

OH, I wish I could express myself better-- I reread this and it seems a bit foggy as to what I'm trying to say....... *sigh*..... well, I hope I've come across the way I meant to. Maybe I'm way off as to how you internalize feelings about others..... just thought I'd share how it is for me so that you could maybe ponder your tendencies.....

I admire your hard work in therapy and sticking with it.

Mouse-

mandy

[Mouse_]

Mandy, No I enjoyed reading your reply. I was interested reading about why we may feel the way we do, because our childhood expectations were often disappointed. This has caused me most of my interpersonal problems. It causes me paranoia to say the least. I have emailed T since today and she apologised for using the word "mad" and said irrational fears best described what we had been talking about. I so wish I could get through this problem like immediately. So many stupid little things leave me feeling disillusioned in people. My immediately reaction is always to walk away. OH well, hopefully this time next yr I'll be in a better place with this.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I have emailed T since today and she apologised for using the word "mad"

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Oh that is wonderful-- that was nice of her(IMO)

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
So many stupid little things leave me feeling disillusioned in people. My immediately reaction is always to walk away.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Yes, I so VERY much relate to this!

mandy

[sunrise]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Mouse_ said:
My immediately reaction is always to walk away.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Me too. I've realized only recently that this is not the healthy way to handle little ruptures in relationships. So I'm trying to be more communicative when something happens between me and another person that tears our relationship a bit. But my efforts are clumsy at best, and in trying to deal with the problem, I can make it worse. I have no conflict skills because for decades I have just walked away. I need a middle ground between walking away and muffing the interaction with my unskilled attempts at communication.

Mouse, I would not know how to react to your friend's words. It reminds me of a scenario in a book I am reading called Non-Violent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg. Two women are talking and one expresses her views on teenage pregnancy, which alienates the other woman, who sees them as negative, uncaring, and judgemental. The scenario shows how when the alienated woman uses the "non-violent communication" skills described in the book, the outcome to the conversation was very different and lead to greater understanding and a stronger relationship between the two women. It was very powerful. I am nowhere near even 1% along the way toward being able to do a conversation like that.

[Mouse_]

This subject must be a real core issue for me, because tonight I find myself feeling very angry. I just cooked everyone egg on toast and threw the eggs in LOL, now they've got scrambled egg on toast LOL. Oh you can see I'm trying to avoid the anger here by light of how Im feeling. I dunno, its like my core being is about to be challenged. That the only tool I've ever known is to be RIGHT! not to sit with my feelings and allow the other person their existence, NO, NO, NO this is to deadly. I am right, I am perfect, I know everything I'm talking about! yeah right, I am small, and I am scared, and I'm not sure about anything in the big grown up world.

[Mouse_]

I feel like I've got to keep all my thoughts and feelings to myself now too. When I told T about how I felt this woman made me feel T said that it would be mad to say tell a shop assistant that we are feeling angry and let down blah, blah, I knew that. I was never going to tell this woman what I talked to T about today. But now feel like I should never say anything about my feelings to anyone. T said unless of course they have abused me verbally or physically. Maybe I am mad. I don't know how to keep my feelings in, they leak out looking for help. I thought the idea of therapy was so that we could communicate with people in relationships. Now I ain't got a %#@&#! clue whats right or whats wrong and this isn't the sort of thing email will sort out so will have to wait in agony until mondays session.

[Mouse_]

ok now I am mad! I've just emailed T back saying that I am aggitated because what she is saying to me is going right over my head, talking about internal and external truths and the wooden apple on her shelf being real..

[Doh2007]

I once heard that maturity is the ability to hold two opposing ideas at the same time.

E.g., she is a chauvinist and she's a nice person.

Or, she's making me crazy and she also helps me.

[Mouse_]

Maturity? thats a rather simplistic statement to a life long pattern of dysfunction. I'm sure your pretty happy wiht your post.

[Perna]

I think we all look for help with our uncomfortable feelings? It's nice when T "supports" how we feel as being a feeling we are allowed/"expected" to feel given our backgrounds and experiences. I don't think that's the same though as "agreeing" with our thoughts behind our feelings. We feel X way because Y happened and that makes sense but as time changes, we should be able to adjust the feelings, not get "stuck" in them because of Y which happened long ago? To remain stuck in them, through ignorance or unwillingness to change is truly "mad" to my way of thinking.

My husband and I are trying to make out our wills and it's a little entertaining because he has 3 sons and is going the "traditional" route of wanting to "protect" me if he dies first and then all the money gets divided between his three sons after I die. I'm being "greedy" and wanting control of all the money (if he dies tomorrow) as I may live another 30 years and who knows what things will be like then? I want to be able to leave the money to whomever I choose, be the eccentric old lady LOL. There's no "right" answer, it's wholly "feelings" based on who we are as people.

[dalila]

<font color="green"> Dear Mouse,

This is a hard situation. I don’t know how much your friendship with this woman means to you. Is it valuable enough to fight for?

I do get where you are coming from, it is as if you thought she was a good mom and found out that she had slapped her child once or twice before she learned better and she is still spanking on occasion.

It seems that you took her remarks personally – i.e. as if she was telling you that you should be kept in your place. I don't think that from what you say in your postings. It is normal for relationships to change, to ebb and flow. I have had friends whose opinion on some issue caused me to withdraw, but generally, we need to accept that no one is going to feel exactly the same way about all issues as I do or as you do. We have to learn to let others think the way they do and accept that there are some areas where there is not any right or wrong just differences. Like roses, a red rose is a rose and so is a yellow one a rose.

Walking away from others because they do not meet our internal set of measurements is not healthy, but it is a common reaction from those who have experienced attachment issues growing up. One mistake and they are off my friend list! No, we want to be accepted with all our faults and we need to find ways to extent that acceptance to others. An infant learns that mom can be displeased with her but still love her; the relationship is not over but rather strengthened by the little breaks. Trust is so hard.

Tc and be patient with yourself and with the process, it will get better and easier some day. You are doing grand, keep on keeping on.
</font>

[Mouse_]

Delia, Yes. I felt I had "owned" up to T yesterday. TOld her this is what I always do and she called me mad. I emailed her again saying I felt irritable and aggitated that I couldn't get her to undertsand what I was saying and her explainations are going way over my head now and email will not solve it. I went to bed crying, I felt so stupid and dum. I work up this morning to an email from her saying she is sorry, the missintunement was her fault as she was pushing the "idea" and not asking how I'm feeling. That was what I was trying to tell her, how I feel and what can I do to change it. I don't want to keep walking away from people, I know that isn't the right thing to do and I felt she had attacked me for what I was already attacking myself for. I am not mad!

Mouse,
No, it doesn't sound psychotic at all! It sounds like you are having another battle in the civil war, the emotional brain versus the cognitive brain. I would be frustrated at what your T said also. I totally understand what you are saying.

[ECHOES]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
what would be wrong with saying to someone that you felt let down now because of what they said?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Because all of us, you too, have separate minds, thoughts, opinions, beliefs.

Your co-worker is fully entitled to her views and they are about her.

Your reaction to her views is about you (internal).

There is nothing wrong with having thoughts about your co-worker's views. You can think she is wrong or mad herself. But the feeling you have about what she said is coming from inside you, not from her holding the views she holds or the content of her view.

If you think that chocolate is the best ice cream flavor and I think that vanilla is the best ice cream flavor, I might strongly disagree with you and want to change your mind. But you are entitled to choose your own views on the best ice cream flavor. If I'm let down because you choose chocolate instead of vanilla that is coming from me, not from your view on ice cream. Also I might tell you why I think vanilla is best, but I can't demand or expect you to change your view to my view.

Sharing views is interesting and enlightening for the sake of sharing itself. What, if anything, happens from that exchange is not in our control. We might change our view, the other person might change their view.

Neither view is wrong or right. They are just separate.

[Fuzzybear]

[Mouse_]

Echoes, I know all that. My problem is that I can't feel that way. Everyone keeps telling me the same thing but in a different way. What I'm saying is I don't want to feel like my life is in danger everytime someone disagrees with me. To me it feels like a death and I don't know why! I feel so shakey inside thinking about this topic now! I am afraid that I am never going to get past it. I want to be able to smile at someone with an interested look and ask why they feel this way or that. Instead of feeling like I've just been shot and need to run for cover. IT IS NOT FUN!

I give up

[Mouse_]

The only thing I can think off is my adoptive mother was such a terrible match for me. I could never get that feeling right for her. She wasn't mum full stop!...perhaps now I have a template inside me that registers difference in any form. Looking at it that way I am not mad and it would make complette sense to feel the way I do.

[Fuzzybear]

(((( mouse ))))

[ECHOES]

Mouse, yeah, I see that you do know all that and that everyone keeps trying to re-explain it. I'm sorry if my post caused you further aggravation. .

I think maybe the important thing then is that you have done a lot of work and thinking and you know the point where something happens but not all the details. T can help you get there.

It's interesting how the situation with the co-worker seems to have been duplicated in the situation with T not 'getting' you. (and in the posts too?) Do you see a commonality there in how you're feeling about each situation?

[Mouse_]

Echoes, YES!

[MissCharlotte]

Hi Mouse,

I hope my comments don't not cause further angst. I've been trying to get through this post for days! As I read through the thread something popped out at me.

Your anger, disappointment, dread, fear, due to what your co-worker said and how T categorized it are similiar and a description of a negative reaction to a negative situation. However, I saw another way to look at this.

Could the "internal reaction" be related to what was NOT said? In other words, your co-worker said something that triggered an emotional state that resides within you. Could your "external" anger be related to your missing the internal reaction that would have been triggered if this friend had said the nice things you expect of her?

In the same vein, could you be angry because T didn't say something soothing and create the safe, internal state that you experience when she does?

Could you be experiencing anger at the loss of comfort?

I hope this makes sense and not more bother. It's another way of looking at what Echoes said. A duplication of missing something instead of a duplication of intrusion.

Peace