[sunrise]

I had my first session back with T yesterday, after a 3 week break. It was OK. Just OK.

He seemed to want to go through the littany of events of 3 weeks. I didn't. Things that happened a couple of weeks ago are old news to me, I dealt with them, I can't even remember the associated feelings.

I feel "us" slipping away. These days, he seems so much more directive than he used to be. He used to let me bring up the topics I wanted to discuss. Now he asks very direct questions about what he wants to discuss. Usually about the divorce. He asked all about progress on the divorce. Sigh. I obediently gave him all the news. I can talk on most any topic. I guess I am pleasing him and giving him what he wants by answering his question. He is not really my therapist anymore, is he? He has become only my divorce coach. I am sad.

Nevertheless, it was very nice to see him again. I did try to connect on a few occasions. Not much success. Our best exchange was a rather lengthy dialog on an article I had read on divorce and how it related to my own process. He was really interested in this, and so was I. It had lead me to some new insights and a new way of feeling about the process and I wanted to share that with him.

As we were winding up, we were talking about what 2008 will bring (for me, the divorce, finally!). I asked him about his plans to marry and he said they had spent time planning the wedding over the break. He talked a little about how wonderful his current relationship was, which I love to hear, and then said to me, "you know, I was married before, for 20 years. I am divorced." He is telling me this stuff as if I have never heard it!? He has talked about his divorce umpteen times with me, using it as an example of marriage and divorce, etc., to help me with my own process. I know all sorts of details about his former marriage and his divorce. In fact, the first time I learned he was divorced, I had real difficulty with it, and it sent me into a depression. (I felt completely hopeless--how could someone like my T, so knowledgeable about relationships and marriages, be divorced? If T couldn't make a marriage work then it was pointless to even try.) We worked on that in therapy and it was really significant for me, and I thought deepened our relationship. And now, T is asking me if I know he is divorced? If I know he was ever married? It made me feel really rejected, like he couldn't even remember that he had shared with me this most basic of information about himself. I felt like he was putting me on the plain of "every-client". Maybe he has told some clients he is divorced, some he hasn't, can't remember what he's told dear sunny, just one of his many clients. I felt very distanced by that exchange at the very end of our session.

A few hours later that evening at home, I got an email from him. The subject was "Good to see you today...." And he wrote a few lines about that, referred to a couple of things in our session, said he'll see me next week, and he thanked me. ???? It was a very nice email, and not something he usually sends after a session. It made me feel really good, like we were close after all. Maybe next time I just need to skip the session and have him spend 5 minutes of his time sending me an email that helps us connect. I wonder if he felt the disconnection at the end of our session and was trying to offer a little extra support and care and repair by this email?

I don't know. I still love him but I am very sad too, as I feel him slipping away from me. I wonder if this is the beginning of termination? You just start losing the closeness and finally when there is nothing left, there is no point to go to therapy anymore, so you stop. Is that how it is? It's painful.

[Mouse_]

Sunrise, I don't think thats how it is when therapy ends, but I'm not completely sure, the email was a very nice.

[confused4ever]

I don't think that is how it is either Sunrise,.......(((hugs))) I am sorry there was not much of a connection, maybe he wanted to just get caught up and you wanted to talk about other things, like you said that was two weeks ago, you handled it, you put it in it's place, but he wanted to make sure it was put to rest and didn't leak out later down the road. I think therapy lasts until we feel we don't need it anymore, not the other way around. I could be wrong, but how are they to know if and when to stop seeing us, if we still have unresolved issues! I think because your T has gone throuhg a divorce (mine has also) he knows how painful things can be so in his mind maybe this is the most important thing he see's getting you through right now, the other stuff later. I know when I meet with my T that is all we talk about lately, even though there are other things I need and want to discuss with him, but he is trying so hard to help me through this process that is what is on his mind in sessions. Just a guess, wish things were different for you!

[krazibean]

has he ever initiated an email to you before? that was very nice of him. i can barely get my T to answer my emails, let alone email me herself!!!!

[Kiya]

Sunrise - (((((((((i'm so sorry))))))) yeah, that is how therapy ended for me with the one T i felt very close to. She started doing the same things, telling me important personal things as if they were the first time (i had always been under the impression i was the *only* client she had told, so the meaning fell away). I felt more and more of this was happening, then she started posing some really odd therapy suggestions. i wasn't sure if she was gettin alzhimers or what was happening, but I felt i was losing her. I could never correct her when she made those mistakes because she geuninely thought she hadn't told me before or what ever. I finally said i was done and ended it. I wanted to stop therapy before losing her totally and just walk away with the good things i had had. We still send email updates every now and then... and about every 6 months we meet for tea just to catch up. but i have been very clear this is not therapy and i will not answer her theraputic-like questions while at tea. I love her, i care about her, i couldn't stand to lose her entirely.

I hope it is different for you sunrise. (((((((((hugs))))))))
Kiya

[sunrise]

Thanks, mouse, krazibean, confused, and Kiya.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
has he ever initiated an email to you before?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I think he may have done it before, but not right after a session to say "Good to see you today." We have email exchanges occasionally and they can be really nice and make me feel very good. Both of our emails are always very brief (and also very informal). It is not me going on at length and dumping my problems to him and expecting long emails back. We do not do email therapy. But his short and sweet emails are very supportive. He is not afraid to show feelings by email, if that makes sense, and uses lots of exclamation points and emoticons. He's just very sweet by email. I lap it up.

Kiya, I'm sorry to hear about your experience with termination. That sounds very painful I hope it will be different for me too.

I still have not responded to T's email. He asked me a question that needs a response, but I haven't done it. I want to say something more substantive than what I usually do in an email, in response to something he said in session. I hope that is not a no-no. I've never done it before. I don't want to monopolize his time outside the hour I pay for, so I don't want a substantive response back from him, but I think what I write to him could be a good thing to take up at our next session. At our last session we briefly touched on payment for his services, in a general way, like his billing practices. He said something like, "and sometimes I spend all this time on phone calls and meetings for my clients when I am not with them, and all this time goes by and I realize I'm not being paid for this. So why am I doing it?" He is looking for a new billing solution instead of his current practice, which is rather relaxed, and not in line with what many other professionals he works with do. (Remember, my T not only does therapy but is a divorce coach and interacts heavily on his clients' behalf out of session with lawyers, financial experts, child therapists, etc.) So I feel especially sensitive that I don't want him spending his unpaid minutes on composing a substantive email back to me. The more I write about this, the more I realize I shouldn't say anything substantive back to him, but should just send a brief message back with a smiley.

[MissCharlotte]

((((Sunny))))

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I don't know. I still love him but I am very sad too, as I feel him slipping away from me. I wonder if this is the beginning of termination? You just start losing the closeness and finally when there is nothing left, there is no point to go to therapy anymore, so you stop. Is that how it is? It's painful.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Sunny, do you think that T wrote the "thank you note" because he sensed your feelings? Maybe he felt the lack of closeness too and thought that if he caught up on what went on over the course of the past 3 weeks that would bring him closer to where you were?

The first session back for me was blah also. Tonight, I was discussing with T how hard it was to reconnect and he said, "isn't it for everybody?" But tonight was......well.......closer than ever.

So, hang in there. I bet T was trying to get close and it was difficult for both of you. Tell him that you need to re-establish the therapeutic relationship. I would imagine that it's very difficult to differentiate between divorce coach/therapist because the divorce is such a big part of your life right now and T wants to make sure he takes care of you?

Tell him whta you need. I know, you can tell him by return e-mail!

It sounds like a beginning of a new phase--not the ending.

Peace

Hey. I would email him whatever you like. It is up to him to let you know of his boundaries around email contact etc and it sounds like you have been very sensitive to that. If he asked you a question that needs a response... Then you could respond by email. And simply say that you don't expect a response (that you appreciate that it takes time to compose one etc) and that you would like to discuss it in your next session. What he does with that is then up to him.

I don't think it sounds like the start of termination.

Can you tell him that you feel like you have lost a therapist and gained a divorce coach? That you miss your therapist? It sounds like he did appreciate that you were left feeling a little flat after the session. Maybe a little disconnected. I think it can be hard for therapists to know how best to recconect sometimes. They would like to, and they try... But it can be hard.

Can you tell him that you felt hurt that he forgot that he told you about his divorce? That it really impacted on you when he told you. That it was a little hurtful to find that something that really impacted on you was something that he forgot?

I think... That the way back to an emotional connection is to share the vulnerable feelings.

[Kiya]

My last T charged $5 a minute for phone calls that lasted over 5 minutes (give or take) and finally started charging for emails (because she was getting swamped) so they were you could write only 5 pages a week and then she would charge $5 for each additional page. People knew not to expect a response unless it was urgent and they wrote that they needed one.

For me - I write, not talk. so we ended up only reading my weekly emails and discussing them, so she said "Maybe i shouldn't charge you for your emails" - because we would have had nothing to talk about. My "writer" gets around my internal censor which refuses to let me talk often times....ahh babling again.

[sunrise]

Thanks, sister, alex, for your thoughts on termination. I am glad you think it is not the beginning of the end.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Sunny, do you think that T wrote the "thank you note" because he sensed your feelings?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Maybe. His email was a surprise to me, so I think maybe it was in response to his feeling that something was amiss especially toward the end of the session (when he apparently was unaware that he had told me before about his marriage and divorce). But I don't think he knew what the matter was, just was aware of the disconnection and the increased distance at the end.

sister, it makes me feel better to read what your T wrote about doesn't everybody have trouble reconnecting? Thanks for sharing that.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
sister wrote:
Tell him that you need to re-establish the therapeutic relationship. I would imagine that it's very difficult to differentiate between divorce coach/therapist

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
alexandra_k wrote:
Can you tell him that you feel like you have lost a therapist and gained a divorce coach? That you miss your therapist?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Yes, the roles are blurred. I have a lot of trouble with it but mostly just resign myself to it. Once I did go in and say I just wanted him to be my therapist that day, and we talked about it some. But we haven't talked since then on that. It's getting to be more of a problem. For example, a therapist has a confidentiality agreement with his client. What goes on in that room between T and client stays there. But a divorce coach does not have a confidentiality agreement and can share with both lawyers, or other team members, anything he deems useful to the process. So there are some things I tell T and he goes and blabs it to other people. I have to trust that he will do nothing to hurt me by this, that he will use good judgment, not compromise me, etc. I do trust T, but I have a hard time with this. In our session yesterday, he told me he had told opposing counsel something I had told him previously. I cringe to think he told my H's lawyer what I said--it is not something I would ever have shared with him myself, and I worry T does not represent me well and now my H's lawyer will think ill of me. I just hate that kind of breach of confidence, but it is expressly allowed and I can't get out of that. It makes me feel so exposed and like I can't be completely open with T. T has told me before that if there is anything specifically I don't want him to share with others, to tell him. I told him I didn't like that and suggested instead that everything be confidential and if he specifically wanted to share anything with others, to just ask me and I would give permission (or not). And he said OK. But that was quite some time ago, and he is not following it. Cringe. What else is he telling people? Trust erodes....

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
alexandra_k wrote:
Can you tell him that you felt hurt that he forgot that he told you about his divorce? That it really impacted on you when he told you. That it was a little hurtful to find that something that really impacted on you was something that he forgot?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I feel unable to tell him those things. Too hurt. It would hurt even more to put that out on the table for T and risk more rejection. What is he to say if I bring that up? "Well, sunny, I really can't remember what I've told you and what I haven't. I have a lot of clients, you know." That would not make me feel better at all.

I still haven't emailed him back.

I feel like this kind of flat and disconnected session is morphing into a rupture.

Hey. I understand about your not feeling able to bring those things up. I understand because... I'd feel the same if I was in your shoes. There are things with my therapist, too, that I simply can't mention to him. Like when he says he will do x and he ends up not doing it. I'm really hurt when that happens. But I can't bring it up. Because if he blamed me or didn't think it was an issue or if he got all defensive... I'd feel mortified. And I simply am not strong enough to deal with that. I can't afford to take that risk.

On the other hand, I think that taking risks in disclosing stuff that is hard is what results in increased feelings of intimacy. If you take a risk in sharing something that is hard (hard in the sense that it would really hurt if he responded badly) and then he responds well - then that results in a feeling of being deeply understood and connected and stuff. That is what is healing.

But finding the balance between risk and self preservation. It is hard, yeah.

Er... I email my therapist. I email him those things that I couldn't possibly say to his face. I don't like to talk about them in therapy, but I will tell him by email. He gets to think about how it is best to respond... And I can share things that way. It is somehow less threatening for me. I don't know.

Is there anyway that you could write this down and give it to him? Or tell him by email? Or something like that? I just wonder if... You need to find some kind of measured and manageable risk to do with this stuff. Something that is a little risky (if you don't risk anything you don't stand to gain anything intimacy wise) but somethign that is also manageable.

Not sure what that might be...

[ECHOES]

sunny, what a nice thing for him to do, sending you a meaningful email.

What about replying like you would like to, then adding that you would like to continue talking about it next session?

I hope you'll tell him too about what you are saying and feeling about the billing and your worry about him taking time to email when he doesn't get paid for it.

I think some "extras" are including in our fees. A phone call here and there, an email, a few extra minutes once in a while. I think the fee is more global to include those kinds of things.

[sunrise]

alex, thanks for understanding how I can't bring up that topic with T for fear of hurt. I can see you really get it. I liked your comment about the balance between risk and self preservation.

ECHOES, T and I discussed his billing last time, and I don't feel a need to revisit it right now. He is a professional and needs to bill for his time. I do contract work sometimes, and it is respectful to oneself to bill for every minute. If you are continually doing "free" work, what does that say about how you value yourself? These are my thoughts, not my T's. He is struggling a bit now on how or whether to change his billing practices so as to better reflect the work he does outside of session for his clients. ECHOES, I do think you're right about the therapy fee being somewhat global. If I keep my emails infrequent and short, I think this is within what he can provide to me for free.

That said, I just emailed T a rather long email! This is a first for me, and I hope I don't get censured. At the end I did say this was something we could explore further at the next session, so I hope he understands I don't expect a time-consuming response from him. I included the information he had asked me about (related to an article we had discussed in session) and expounded on that at length, relating it to stuff in my own life. And I also told him how uncomfortable I was learning he had shared what I had told him with the other lawyer. I raised the therapist/coach dichotomy and let him know I missed the confidentiality we used to have. So, I put a lot of stuff out there. It was kind of scary (high risk, as alex wrote), but I think it will be a good starting point for next time. (Unless other issues have arisen!)

[ECHOES]

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ECHOES, T and I discussed his billing last time, and I don't feel a need to revisit it right now. He is a professional and needs to bill for his time. I do contract work sometimes, and it is respectful to oneself to bill for every minute. If you are continually doing "free" work, what does that say about how you value yourself? These are my thoughts, not my T's. He is struggling a bit now on how or whether to change his billing practices so as to better reflect the work he does outside of session for his clients. ECHOES, I do think you're right about the therapy fee being somewhat global. If I keep my emails infrequent and short, I think this is within what he can provide to me for free.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Since anything and everything is important in therapy, I do still believe your thoughts and feelings on this are appropriate and are expected there. It is actually unfair to T to censor. Like a book with a chapter or pages missing...

I'm glad you found a way to reply to his email in a way that felt comfortable to you.

[sunrise]

ECHOES, I don't think I'm censoring my thoughts on the billing policy from T. What do you think I need to share with T on this topic that I haven't? We already discussed this issue last time (and have on other occasions too) so I don't feel like anything has been censored. ?? It seems like it's been dealt with and is minor compared to other things we have never discussed, haven't discussed recently, or have dealt with inadequately--things where my need is much greater. Unfortunately, sessions are only 50 minutes long, and I try--not always successfully--to make the best use of this time that I can, by being in the moment, letting myself go where my need is greatest, etc.

As I wrote before, for the first time ever, I just sent a long, revealing email to T, in which I shared with him some things I had not shared with him face to face, important things. It was a big deal to me that I did that--it took some bravery to click on "send." I guess I was being too quick to pat myself on the back, because now I read that I am censoring myself and being unfair to my T. I think I need to take a break.

[ECHOES]

sunny, I'm so sorry if I offended you. I didn't mean to at all. I had to go back and see what made me say that and it's:

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
At our last session we briefly touched on payment for his services, in a general way, like his billing practices. He said something like, "and sometimes I spend all this time on phone calls and meetings for my clients when I am not with them, and all this time goes by and I realize I'm not being paid for this. So why am I doing it?" .... So I feel especially sensitive that I don't want him spending his unpaid minutes on composing a substantive email back to me.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I understood that to mean that he doesn't know your feelings. That maybe sharing that would clarify and specify for you what he feels comfortable with so that you can feel comfortable too.

[sunrise]

Hi ECHOES, sorry, looks like I overreacted. When I wrote I was sensitive to his spending extra time, I didn't mean that I had hurt feelings or anything, but just that I was respectful of his policy (boundaries). I feel his policy is reasonable.

I am feeling a little sensitive right now because I sent T this long email, with some hard stuff in it, and he didn't respond at all. Oh, well. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

It is really striking to me how many people here on PC had bad first sessions back after the break. It's like a plague upon us.

Hey.

Emailing is taking a risk, yeah. I'm... So glad that you found some way to tell him what was on your mind. :-) Really.

That being said... I surely understand some of that agony about waiting... Waiting... Not knowing how they will respond... Every time I send my therapist something that is hard I worry about how he is going to respond. But that being said, it gets easier with time. With him repeatedly responding well.

It might be that your therapist won't email you back. Maybe he would prefer to discuss it in the session with you. How long to you have to wait until you see him again??? Hang in there...

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sunrise said:

I don't know. I still love him but I am very sad too, as I feel him slipping away from me. I wonder if this is the beginning of termination? You just start losing the closeness and finally when there is nothing left, there is no point to go to therapy anymore, so you stop. Is that how it is? It's painful.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I feel as though it is just the opposite. That if termination is going to occur, the closeness has gotten so intense and beneficial that you are able to transfer that love and use it on yourself and others outside of the relationship. I don't think you would feel as though there is nothing left. I think you would feel as though everything is beginning.

[sunrise]

Thank you, pink, that is a hopeful outlook. I had kind of thought it went that way too, but with recent disconnect, I was wondering if maybe I had it all wrong, that our degree of connection had peaked, was now declining, and would wither away to... termination. I really appreciate everyone here saying that depressing scenario is not the case!

I had the best thing happen today. I went to see my own financial planner instead of the shared one I had been using with my H. It was great! This is going to be sooooo helpful. I feel 10 times better than yesterday, like maybe I won't have to be a bag lady after all. As we were wrapping up, I said to the FP, that my therapist knows and loves you. Who is that? she asked. I told her who my T was, and she said, "gosh, I love him too," and laughed.

[ECHOES]

(( sunny )) I think I say things wrong or the wrong things. I don't think you overreacted. I'm really sorry that I misunderstood.

I see what you're saying now. Thank you for explaining more.

I hope you heard back from T today. It sounds like he's giving your email a lot of thought and consideration before he replies.

[sunrise]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
alexandra_k said:
Emailing is taking a risk, yeah. I'm... So glad that you found some way to tell him what was on your mind. :-) Really.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">alex, I think it may have been a mistake, since he hasn't responded. Big boundary transgression. Whoops. He is off work now until Monday, which is the day of my next session, so there will not be a response. Live and learn, I guess.

I am still feeling really good about my meeting with the financial person today, so I am not going to let this email to T thing get to me. Really!

Oh no. Please don't write it off as a mistake / boundary transgression just yet. Waiting is hard... Tormenting. I get that. But please please please please please give him a chance to respond in session. It might be that his boundary thing around emails is that he has decided to respond to emails in session rather than by email.

Wait and see.

He might surprise you yet...

Fingers crossed for you both.

I'd really be super dooper surprised if he didn't bring it up in your session. And... I'd be really appalled if he wasn't good about what you said (and appreciated your honest communication with him).

That being said... I'm terrible at waiting...

[lauren_helene]

Sunny I understand your feelings. I am going through something similar.

However I believe that you and T built a very strong foundation. I bet he thinks so too and that is why he believes you are stronger and ready for whatever is coming next in therapy.

I like the email he sent you also. I don't think it is the beginning of termination just the next phase.

In your first paragraph you mention not being able to remember the feelings of the past 3 weeks. I struggle with conveying emotions/feelings in therapy and lately my T has been acting the same way very business-like and matter-of-fact.

He often will say 'what is that person's name again' or he'll say 'I forgot what is that story again'....however, he also remembers things that I have said to him word for word almost two years ago.

That tells me he remembers and is trying to get me in touch with my feelings. Could this be true for you too?

[chaotic13]

Sunrise,
Just wanted to say that I've emailed my T on several occasions but she never emails me back. For the most part this is OK, except for once when I emailed and where I included a request for an earlier appointment in the message. I thought she could have at least asked the secretary to call me and say there were no openings. Anyway, even though I don't get a response to my emails, I have found some benefit from sending an occasional "session overflow."

If he doesn't write back, don't assume its a negative thing. You and your T seem to have a good face-to-face relationship. Maybe he just wants to talk with you face-to-face.