Finally Discussing Divorce.

Thanks Perna and AAAAA. I will take yours and everyone else advice and insist on having my own lawyer. AAAAA - TBH I don't think his intentions are fairness, otherwise he would have been a man and divorced me after I gave him a year to sort it all out, almost 6 yrs ago. I think he's motivated by saving money and doesn't want a big court fight because this would surely doom him. He would even make up bold faced lies so you're right...I do have to pay attention to his track record - he doesn't have high morals or compassion for me. He's more concerned about himself - not spending to much if he really is going to do this and not letting everyone know about him being an abuser and bigamist.

When this first happened 6 yrs ago and I was itching to get a divorce right away he indirectly threatened me. He said one morning "I had this scary dream that you would kill the kids" and then he reminded me he has connections. He was implying indirectly, that he's capable of making up a bold faced lie to take my girls away from me. This is why I've gone on this long and stayed like a prisoner basically. All of you know how I protect and love my girls and I couldn't hurt another living person or animal. He has lied about many things in the time I've known him and has no problem with lying.

Lynn, I am glad you are interested in collaborative divorce. As I mentioned, it affords more protection than mediation, and from some of the things you've written, I think you need that protection. In collaborative divorce, both party's lawyers should be collaboratively trained, so you do have to discuss this at the outset so both you and your H can make sure to choose collaboratively trained lawyers (not all divorce lawyers have this training). To find a collaborative lawyer near you, go to the link below. When you find one, if your H doesn't know where to go to get his own, you can have your own lawyer recommend other collaborative practitioners to him.
http://www.collaborativepractice.com/_loc.asp

All of these things mean you really need your own lawyer. You need legal counsel to help you know if something is fair, and because your H has this interest in law, he will be quite a bit more knowledgable than you, so again, this means you need a lawyer to even things out. If he has been emotionally abusive and is controlling, again, you need your own lawyer. Your collaborative lawyer will help you find your voice and not be so passive.

Because your H is so controlling about money, you might consider getting a lump sum payout for your settlement instead of alimony (aka spousal support). That way you can be over and done with his spousal support payments to you and not have to stress each month on whether he will pay or not. Of course, he will still need to do child support payments (unless you make quite a bit more money than he does), but he might be more willing to make those since they are for the kids.

If you do collaborative divorce, you each need a lawyer. Some people who do mediation get by with only one. I do not recommend only one lawyer for you because of everything you have said about your H.

Definitely do not go the one lawyer route, then. Get two lawyers who will cooperate and be civil, but you will each have your own representation.

I'm glad you were able to tell your girls and it went fairly well. That is hard news to have to share. I hope you're able to stay near your daughter's school so she can continue there and not lose her friends. That stability will help her through this time.

Thank you sunrise for taking the time to address these important points. The lump sum route wouldn't be possible because we live month to month and he's strained financially. The house is mortgaged to the max and there's a mortgage on the space we have for the business too. Thanks again.

I called the lady lawyer who's a friend of ours - not a best friend and more his friend. I left her a message and simple said " I understand if you can't tell me any info for privacy reasons...but I wanted to know if my husband asked you to draw up papers. If you can't tell me then I understand but would like at least a referral". She had her secretary call me to say she can't tell me anything because of privacy reasons. I feel irritated she didn't call me herself. I mean I've been to her house for dinner several times and she's been here - don't I at least deserve to be told that one one one? I don't mind that she can't tell me whether he asked her but at least call me personally.

I'm starting to think he probably didn't do anything and I'm just a fool for thinking it would finally happen. I can't call a lawyer myself because I need money for that. So here I am waiting yet again and I feel so completely irritated that my heads hurts. To cope I have to put all this on the back burner and start getting my mind in a better place. I feel like a fool for telling all of you and now this. I wouldn't be surprised if all this stress will cause some kind of terminal illness. Its hopeless for me and I feel like I'll never be at peace with this.

Let's hope it's his terminal illness & not yours. Men who are controlling love to play these mind games. Know you are always in hopes of getting this over with & when the hopes are built up again, it's hard not to feel some level of hopeful excitement about it.

The thing with the lawyer is that is how they handle all their calls is to dump the return calls on their secretary whether friend or not.....it's just how they do their business (nothing personal I'm sure).

My guess is that he might have talked to her about the divorce, but when they got to the financial end of it, found out that it would be impossible. That was the first thing I wondered when you said something was "what has financially changed to make this possible?" If the value of your house is not worth what the mortgage is, & he's in debt with his business, there are no assets to cover the debt. Can't split a house you can't sell. If he gives you the house & has to get an apartment for himself, how would you be able to pay for the house? If nothing has changed financially to make it possible, I'm sure that his lawyer definitely pointed that out & the problem is that no matter how much one wants the divorce, unless you go through bankruptcy & end up loosing everything anyway (but finally getting rid of the debt also), it's almost impossible to figure out a financially way out when you need some kind of stability for your daughters where you are the one who has them living with you.

When financial things get in the way, it makes life all that much more difficult....know that's why I'm where I am & not divorced.....but have to say how thankful I am that I don't have to be anywhere around my husband & there is 2100 miles between us. I haven't even had any communication with him for almost a year at which point he just proved to be the same looser he had always been in our marriage. Not having to have anything to do with him makes the situation easier, but not knowing what stupid things he's still doing makes is difficult also. Just know that absense didn't make my heart grow stronger, but it sure made my dislike for him stronger as I was able to logically look back at the relationship without the emotions getting in the way.

Patience is all we can hold onto in situations like this......there will be a time when you will be free of this mess. I think that each time we go through things like this, it makes us more & more lessen the grief of leaving a person horrible enough to treat you with such lack of respect. Think it also strengthens us to not allow anyone in the future into our life that we would even sense might treat us this way.

Know how high your disappointment is at this point. My understanding is with you & all the emotions you are experiencing.

Lynn, it's so hard to play that waiting game. I understand about your comment about stress. So hard....

I notice you didn't mention if the lady lawyer friend gave a referral, so I'm guessing not. When you see a divorce lawyer the first time, there is usually no charge. That first meeting is usually free, while you get some basic info, and decide whether you want to employ them or not. So I would suggest that you go see a lawyer for one free session, get some free information, share some details about the situation and ask for their advice. At least you will become more educated about divorce and you will have a contact with a lawyer established just in case things go awry and you need legal representation immediately. If you don't have the name of a lawyer, try that website I gave you up thread.

In addition, I recommend that you learn all you can about the family finances. Photocopy bank records, investment records, mortgage documents, etc. Become very knowledgeable about what's happening with money in your household, if you aren't already.

Also, what is your work situation? Do you stay home with your girls or work part- or full-time outside of the home? I would recommend being proactive and doing all you can to bolster your job. If you are not working, consider what type of job you would be able to get, or take a job skills course. And network to build your contacts who may help when you do want to make a change.

You can do these things while you bide your time and wait to make a move or for him to make a move. You can make use of your more or less stable situation now to do things you will have to do anyway once you are separated.

Best of luck, lynn.

I definitely agree with sunrise on this point. It's important for you to get as much information about your financial situation even without his knowing it. The thing is that you are a part of the financial situation because you are his wife & part of the marriage even if he's kept you in the dark & off of everything, you still have financial responsibility in the marriage even if he's the only one with income.

It's also a good idea to learn as much as you can about handling money because when you are on your own, it's something you are going to need to know HOW to do.

I also believe like sunrise, that it would just be a good idea for you to go to a divorce lawyer & get all the possible information you can about your legal situation. The more educated you get yourself the less he can BS & intimidate you with any threats because you can stand up to him with the facts. It's important to know whether your husband is just BS'ing you or whether he's really telling you the truth about the divorce. Knowing your rights also puts you more in control of the situation than allowing your self to stay a passive bystander. When he realized that you have educated yourself about your situation he will also be less inclined to try to intimidate you. On top of that, maybe talking with a lawyer will allow you to find out a way out of the marriage either that, or you will find out exactly why you may be stuck in it because of financial reasons. Which ever it turns out, it's better for you to know for yourself than blindly accept whatever your husband tells you. I honestly can't see that really being YOU since you don't seem to be that way with any other part of your life.

Know it's tough to try to get some level of control when you have been controlled for so long. I am sure that it would be a very good example for your girls to see & learn from to make them stronger in their own relationships later on in their own lives.

I know that when I went to the free consultation of the divorce lawyer I talked to, it was a very valuable learning experience even though I learned that I financially was stuck at the time & still am until anything changes with the economy.

Thank you to sunrise and eskielover for your detailed post and caring. As far as finances go - he does all banking by computer, keeps business accounts separate from personal and has more than one personal account. I know he lives month to month, so not much is there. My name is solely on the business which isn't advantageous if I was a spiteful woman. His car needs repair and he can't afford to fix it. I finally found a law firm which only does family law and offer various types of divorces including collaborative ones.

I'm weak emotionally ATM but I'm trying to buck myself up. When I feel stronger, I'll make an appointment with them. I'll at least call them to see if they offer a free initial consultation today. I don't have a job - I made the mistake of not finishing my University education. Got used to being a stay at home mother and this was convenient for him since it works out well with his control problem. Had my kids late so I'm 50 now and its hard to think I need to start working this late in life. I did work when I was younger but nothing more than retail type work.

It's good you called and found an attorney's office. Don't wait! Call today!

In the US there are legal aid centers for those who don't have financial means or attorney's who operate on a sliding scale according to your ability to pay. Does Canada have anything like this? Will you check?

Like has been said, you have to do everything in your power to do all the best things you can do for you, your daughters and Bella too! It's hard, very hard. Break it up into bits and pieces and tackle them bit by bit. I know you can!!

Thank you Notz. I emailed my husband and said I hope he was telling the truth about getting this done and how I want peace. He said he is trying to get them ASAP and that I would get peace. For now I'm going to see what these quote "papers" say and I won't sign anything until I'm sure its fair. He may have got a referral by one of his friends lawyers to do this as a favor - he's all for getting things for a low price.

I'm thinking he's smart enough not to want a court battle because he'll look like the worst spouse for taking a second wife and thinking I could live without sex myself and still be happy. Not only is he an adulterer but a polygamist. He has a public image to hold up. He always said he doesn't want to live with the other woman who I don't think is in the picture now, because he still wants everything to go to us in the event of his death.

For now I'm going to wait and see what he has to offer. He always said he doesn't want to ever divorce, so getting him to this point is a big deal. He's the kind of person who's will bite, the moment he feels cornered which is why I'm waiting to see what move he'll make. If its not favorable I will get a lawyer to advise me and tell him I want my own independent person to look it all over.

That's great, lynn! I recommend you go see the lawyer even without seeing what your husband has come up with. Just go on your own to get some info and establish a relationship. No need to tell your husband at this time that you have seen a lawyer.

Lynn, I get worried when I you write this kind of thing. I can understand not wanting to spook your husband so you are just going to wait to see what he comes up with. But you must have your own lawyer go over the papers! You will not be able to judge whether the papers are favorable to you or not because you don't know the law and you don't know what the typical settlement for your type of case is (e.g. the length of time you have been married, your education and future earning potential, the age of your children, the child support schedule for your state, your income, his income, etc.). Your husband's offer may be extremely unfavorable, but you won't even know it! Like maybe he would offer to pay $200/month child support whereas the child support schedule says it should be $500! Please please let your lawyer look at the papers, no matter whether you think they're favorable or not. All you need to say to your husband is "I'll look this over" then take the papers to the lawyer with whom you have already (hopefully) met and see what he/she has to say.

And tell him you'll be getting "someone" to take a look at it, because he's already scared of what you'll do. Make the bastard sweat a little

Oh, Lynn! I was married for 20 years, asking for a divorce for most of that time. My husband threatened me with taking my daughter away, and "kicking me out in the street with nothing." I believed him at the time, and I stayed until she left for college. Then, I moved out. Like you, I wanted it to be amicable, not wanting to upset him. He controlled all the money, and he, like your husband, was most concerned about his possessions/investments/inheritance, etc. I allowed HIM to write the divorce sans lawyer, as is possible to do here. One just has to get the forms, and then go to the court for a hearing with a "lawmaster." We split the value of the house which was paid for (he stayed in it). At the hearing, the lawmaster stated to me, "Your husband has substantially more money than you. Are you satisfied with this?" telling me that once I signed the agreement, I could never come back and change my mind. I had wanted out for so many years, had been so intimidated by him, I said to her, "That is what we agreed on."

Like you, I didn't want to anger or intimidate husband. You are a nice person; you like peace, I can tell. I do too. But from my personal experience, I can tell you that you should not be timid about the division of assets. If I had it to do over, I would find a tough smart divorce lawyer to work for my financial interest. After a time, it will not matter if you've angered him. The only thing that will be important between you is your daughters. You will go on with your life; so will he. How you manaage to go one will be greatly affected by your financial condition. How "nice" you've been during the divorce process will only matter in the financial status in which you find yourself after the proceedings.

Be smart about this, please!

Thank you sunrise, Flooded and seeker1950 for sharing your story which is similar to mine. I will have my own lawyer look over any papers I get before I sign them. I appreciate all the advice and I realize my apprehension is from being scared so thanks for calling me out on that.

lynn, I am wishing you the very best. So many here have given you wonderful advice that I hope you follow through on taking. I was also given some similar advice when I went through my divorce over 10 years ago, but I remained "too nice" and didn't want confrontation. Ignoring good advice hurt me because I lost out financially and also lost custody of my children.

Be strong. There is a happier life awaiting you when this is over.

Lynn, I'm really glad you'll have a lawyer look at the papers. I fully support your desire to be "nice" and civil about the divorce proceedings. But a person can be "nice" and still advocate for a settlement that is fair to themselves. I was "nice" during my entire divorce proceedings, but I also lobbied for a fair settlement and got one--with my lawyer's help. My lawyer was never nasty either. Being nice doesn't mean you have to give up your rights or settle for whatever your husband's first choice is. Being nice doesn't mean you agree with your husband every step of the way.

I just don't want you to think that being nice means rolling over and playing dead. It doesn't at all.

My friend IRL needed a tougher divorce lawyer also......she ended up financially in a bad place & has ended up having to sell her house & move into an apartment after her boys graduated from college & their support ended while he's living in style with all the money that she didn't get that was really due to her. They did a stupid negotiation of him paying for her to go to college (at her age which was already in her 50's) to get a career. She was never good at school in the first place & had no interest in college before she got married to him. She had some severe medical issues (several hip replacement operations & a replacement of the replacement & another surgery on the replacement's replacement because of a bone spur).....well, she never went back to school, so all that money that he was supposed to owe her for the schooling, he never had to pay. Don't get caught into those kind of negotiations either. If they try something like that, get the money yourself & pay for finishing your education yourself by the money you have from the divorce.....make sure you have a good lawyer that is looking out for YOU.....because the husband's lawyer can try to make anything sound good at the time & especially if you are a peaceful person who doesn't like conflict.

I've always been a fighter for myself & it's really hard to see people let people walk all over them in the name of peace & then look back with regret in the long run. I have always fought for what was right......from animal's rights to my own & get frustrated when I end up not being able to go in for the fight when I see a serious wrong staring me in my face but not knowing exactly how to fight to make something right.

You are always after the right thing being done.....the problem is that sometimes it really does take a fight whether we like to fight or not in order to make the right thing happen. That is the true test to our desire for our rights is if we are willing to stand up for them in spite of what we are up against.....I think that is what you really want to show as an example for your daughters so they will know that it's ok to do for themselves in their future.....as that is where your direction in training them has been going over the years.....it's always good when our actions reflect our words otherwise, it leaves for a lot of confusion in the eyes of our children. It's something they see whether we realize it or not.

Glad to hear that you are being WISE about having your own lawyer....now for the courage to stand strong through all the really tough things that might come up.

This was part of my divorce settlement and it worked out well. I had to calculate costs of education and that helped us determine the settlement amount. The money I got however was not tied to my going back to school (which I think is what eskielover is warning against)--it just helped determine the amount. I guess if I had wanted to I could have just banked the money or spent it on something else, but I didn't. I went back to school. It is good to do things like calculate the costs of the things you will need the money for--living expenses, retraining/education, etc. This helps justify to the other side why you need the amount of money you propose in the settlement.

A good book to read on the topic of settlements and the variety of things that can go into them is: Fair Share Divorce for Women by Kathleen Miller. It contains some really creative solutions and is good for both women and men to read. (I think the title would put men off, though, so I think that was a bad choice of words!)

I wanted to first thank everyone who responded to this thread and all the good advice. I haven't been on top of keeping certain things organized in the house the last few years. Last night after me and the girls went to bed....he dumped the contents of the kitchen drawers on the counter. Since my oldest wakes up before me, she swept all the stuff into bags...so I wouldn't be bothered. I was livid inside.

He woke up and said good morning like unusual and I promised myself I wouldn't react. He said "that was a lot of stuff eh"? I said "I don't want to discuss it" and he got mad. We then started arguing and going around the typical circles we've been over several times. Since things are so bad financially he can't afford 2 dwellings and doesn't want to lose this house which we struggled to keep. He planned on getting the divorce on paper only...NOT actually moving or living apart. If I initiate things on my own it will dissolve what's meagerly left asset wise which is nothing really - which means I would live in poverty.

So my hopes are ruined for now. For now I'm just going to keep going the way I'm survived for the last 5/6 yrs. I feel embarrassed for posting this prematurely before I actually had real action. I appreciate all the advice and know how much you all were hoping for better results. I can tell by the number of views this thread got, that everyone was hoping for the best for me and I'm sorry to disappoint all who cared to give me advice.

I emailed a mutual lawyer friend of ours - he's a well known criminal lawyer. He emailed me back right away and gave me the name/phone # of a female lawyer who takes legal aid. I'll call her tomorrow because my youngest is home sick today.

The other Halloween night both girls were gone to their friends house and we were home alone giving out candy. Everything was going neutral / civil - he started talking randomly how kids are so cute when they're babies and I thought this was friendly conversation until he said "do you think I should have another baby"? BTW I'm too old to have more kids, had a tubal ligation plus we haven't been together for 5 yrs........ SO I know he's not talking about me having a baby. I was floored to say the least - who the hell asks their legal wife whether he should have a baby. He's 51 and we have girls and he thinks he wants a boy. Then we ended up going around in the same frustrating circle.

He's made it apparent he doesn't want to give up the house, so I guess I need to be prepared for poverty conditions. Either I stay in this high class house with a kitchen I designed and take the mental torment or move and live in poverty. He doesn't want to let us live here with him moving out. He's a complete idiot - who would ask such a stupid question??? Why am I being tormented like this? I'm so unhappy.

(((Lynn P))). I am so sorry you and your children are struggling with all of this. Outside of the 2nd wife, but including all of the multiple accounts he has, and you 'options' - your story is essentially my parents story too. I can relate to all of it just being a frustrating unending mess. Unfortunately i am just the eldest daughter in the situation (like yours, and literally with mine) so i am sorry; i dont know how to help besides offering a listening ear for support and another

((((Lynn)))

My father desperately wanted a boy too. Their first child was a stillborn boy, then came my sister, then came me. My father was 42, mom 38. He never got to have a son either, or any more children for that matter. Apparently, APPARENTLY, God told him "no" - he already had too much on his plate already. Life isn't a game. You don't get to wipe your slate clean, then ask to live your life all over again. Take good care of what God has already given you . Having a boy will not make you a man, having a girl will not make you a woman.

Thank you ((notablackbarbie)) - I saw at first you gave a hug then decided later to add your own feelings. I appreciated even the hug and even more you sharing. I understand my situation is extremely complicated because he's not a rational person, so I know its hard for anyone to solve this. I still appreciate even hugs. I'm sorry you also have unhappy parents.

Thank you also to ((KathyM)) and sharing your thoughts. I told him its important to be thankful for whatever God gives us. When I was pregnant, it didn't matter to me if it was a boy or girl...as long as God gave me a healthy child. I would accept an ill or disabled child. If God wanted him to have a boy, then he would have given him one. If we do get divorced and he does try to have a baby, it will be ironic if he has a girl. There's also no guarantee that boy will be a blessing to him. My girls are smart, compassionate, strong and talented - I'm grateful I have such blessings.

He told me how his brother has his 2nd marriage..... had a girl now 20 with the 1st then had a girl(14months) with his 2nd wife. She's pregnant again and my husband said "she wants to give him a boy". My husband is 51 and if he does have another child, he'll be old when the child is a teenager. He's a frustrating human being, that I don't have the tolerance for anymore. It would be so much simpler if he would want the divorce too - he thinks he can do whatever he feels like and still come home to a supposed normal wife and kids.

(((Lynn))) I'm so sorry that this situation hasn't gotten any better. As your daughters get older they understand more and more of your relationship dynamic; this is what they are seeing as a healthy relationship. Please keep that in mind as you make your decision here. This is not the life you wanted when you married this man. It is not fair.

I agree with you ((AAAAA)). I've been honest with my girls so far and told them details over the years. I was worried this might affect their own choices later in life or I was also worried it might make them cynical towards relationships. I even told my husband, he might be setting his girls up to make bad choices relationship wise. So I point out what a real relationship should be like - as far as honesty, loyalty and respect for each other and how they shouldn't tolerate their husband not coming home at night or at 3:00 am in the morning.

My daughters friends are starting to get BF's and one of her best friends just got out of a verbally abusive relationship. My daughter recognized the red flags in her relationship and tried to warn her friend but the friend wouldn't listen. That boy would verbally abuse her friends and even tried to cyber bully my daughter. Finally the girl broke up with the boy and now he's bullying her. My kids seem to be doing alright but they can see how I'm not happy and I feel bad about that - this is why I have to call this lady tomorrow and start realizing what's ahead of me.