At the beginning of possible relationships

At the beginning of friendships/relationships, is it normal for one person taking the lead the whole time/doing all the pursuing? I went on what I thought was a date with a guy a few weeks back (which I had to make all the first moves when it came to setting up) and it went really well, he gave me virtually every indication of being interested in me at least at some level and we decided to meet again. I suppose I made the mistake of not setting up when/where we would meet again that night, but I didn't think communication would be so difficult.

He will usually reply if I text him…well, at least about 50% of the time. I know he at least reads the texts as he'll refer to them later. Since he doesn't respond to all the texts, I assume he's busy and usually wait a few days before trying again but I'm being told by other people that to show I'm really interested in him I should contact him everyday. I don't want to annoy him (especially if he's busy), besides I don't know what to say usually to start a conversation, unless it's a generic "hey, how was your day?" and I wouldn't want to start with that every single day as that WOULD be annoying. But, no matter what happens, he will not communicate with me in any way unless I contact him first. I think he's shy, but I've thought I've made clear enough that I DO actually want to talk to him, but maybe not.

Basically, I'm just wondering if this is normal and if I'm doing the right thing by giving him "space" if he isn't replying and trying again in a few days?

And if I should contact him everyday, what else should I say to start conversations so I'm not saying the same thing or something out of character? Or should I wait until I see him next to say anything to him (which will be in a little less than two weeks)? Or is there a better way to indicate that he has permission to contact me even if I don't contact him first?

He does seem to want to talk to me…I'm just confused on what I should do. I don't want to "suffocate" him, but I also don't want to seem overly aloof.

I can understand your concern here and it may be something but it may be nothing. Quite possibly he's just bad at replying to messages in general.

What should you do? Well if you feel that contacting him everyday, in your mind would be pestering, don't do it. If it's something you would do with any other person you like, friend or more.. go ahead, I see no problem in it. go with what you feel is right, becuase if you're doing something unnatural to your own behavior already then you're not showing your true colors. Fact is, if it bothers him, once you were a couple, it would probably bother him then too, when you're comfortable doing it and you'll never be able to "be yourself" I hope I'm making sense. For me personally being contacted every day - not obsessively repeated attempts over the course of a day, but once a day to start conversations, it would tell me she's interested but that's not the only way she can do so either... so be yourself.

Also, if you have nothing to say to spark a conversation, should you be even contacting him anyway? I mean, if you're compelled to talk to him for some reason, just refer to why you're contacting him, maybe sometimes you're seeing how he's doing, maybe another time you're just wondering what, if anything, he is doing. Just go with that. Sometimes just saying hi is perfectly alright too! I personally would not think it odd if a girl asked me how I was once a day, it's pretty normal to start a conversation. But that's just me. Its flattering to hear from a girl I like every day. After all if I'm attracted to her, I probably could spend hours of every day just chatting with her anyway.

Hope this helps!
~S4

He sounds aloof. If a man is interested, he Will contact you and make an effort. You've let him know you are interested, so I would back off completely from initiating contact. Personally, I like when the guy takes the lead. Then you know he Is interested and you don't put yourself though all the questions and doubts. Good luck. I've been there so I know how it feels when you like someone and you feel like you're not getting the answers but sometimes they're giving you an answer by Not saying a word.

I do feel like contacting him everyday would be pestering, even though sometimes I want to contact him everyday while other times I don't. I just don't like having the pressure of feeling like I need to be the one always contacting him. This is the same with my friendships as well…if you look at my phone, the vast majority of texts and calls that I didn't initiate are my neighbor asking for money or someone asking me to do a job for them.

So, the whole calling/texting just to say "hi, how are you?" is just…well, not normal to me. I was taught by my parents that you contact people about practical things…or at least with a specific, important topic in mind. Otherwise, you're annoying the other person. Which may be true for some people and not for others, but who knows which kind of person the other is?

And this is what worries me…I always do everything wrong and make someone who likes me dislike me very quickly. And maybe this is part of it…or maybe because I accidentally revealed too many of my negative traits too quickly…I have this problem of being too honest when trying to start a relationship because I thought that was correct behavior but I'm starting to believe that the correct behavior is to lie by omission (not outright lie or misrepresent myself of course, just omit everything that that person might find objectionable and everything even remotely negative…which is basically saying don't be myself because in my real personality I'm cynical and a bit nihilistic, so kinda negative). I've tried changing my personality…becoming "nicer", less aggressive, more effeminate etc. so I would also be attractive to guys (girls like me, but I'm only interested in guys at the moment for whatever reason).

Also, he and I in person can talk for hours…but when it comes to technology not so much. I don't see him person on a regular basis because he lives in another town. The town isn't too far away, but neither of us usually have a reason to go to each other's respective cities/towns.

Although that makes sense, by that logic, only a couple guys liked me in my entire life and it wasn't even that strong of a like…unless it's solely because of my personality, I don't really understand that. People tell me I'm physically attractive…makes me not believe them. I don't know why people would offer unsolicited opinions and make them a lie. If you didn't like the way I looked, you just wouldn't say anything…not randomly come up to me and compliment me, right?

I would only prefer guys take the lead because they either get mad about it or freak out if I do…which is literally every SINGLE time. This is why I gave up years ago…everybody thought this current guy liked me and I should try again. You'd think I'd learn my lesson. Men that might be attracted to me (and me them) are also terrified of me despite my best efforts to NOT come across as aggressive and mean. I'm really a nice person deep down, I just get angry at BS or people bullying someone (especially if it's the guy I like) and I WILL get in people's faces if I really need to. I try just to walk away now…but you can't completely change someone's personality. I realize that when I'm defending myself and/or others that I come across as a psycho b**** so I don't try to do it anymore.

I also know a girl can't tell a guy she likes him because apparently that's a huge insult to their manhood or something? I don't know…I just know they either refuse to talk to me for a long time (if ever again) or get really mad.

I really don't understand guys…I offer myself on a silver platter every single time, but apparently the thought of me as a girlfriend to a guy is traumatizing. Even straight girls usually don't mind if I'm attracted to them, but if I like a guy, it's like the most horrible thing that's ever happened to them.

Blah. I could go on forever, but for the sake of everyone else's sanity, I'm going to stop there.

No, this is not a normal, back and forth relationship/friendship. Takes 'effort' on 'both' sides. This sounds lopsided. You are exerting energy in someone, who isn't reciprocating.

Maybe I'm not exerting enough energy? I mean, since I'm not contacting him everyday like what the norm is.

This is the best and closest I've had to a relationship, I think I'll be fine if it's one-sided. And he just may be really shy.

I mean, why ever respond at all and say that he did want to hang out with me/go on a date with me if he doesn't have interest? I don't understand what someone would get out of that.

Although, I think he likes me as a person, but now that I think about it, I don't think he's physically attracted to me. At least not anymore. I probably wore too much make-up or it was the clothes I was wearing. That was stupid…I even looked at myself in the mirror beforehand and thought I looked like I was going on a date with a girl. I mean, I know better. My only chance for anything even resembling a date in years, and I blow it with something selfish and stupid. Or maybe it's my dietary concerns…I know that would annoy me if I were him. Or my personality…or things I've alluded to about me that aren't a positive. I just wish I didn't have an attraction for almost exclusively men right now…this just seems cruel. I mean, if I'm ONLY attractive to girls, why can't I just be gay? Hell, he probably thinks I'm gay.

One of the things, asked of my, by my therapist, at the beginning of this year, after recognizing a pattern in my relationships, 'will I know when I have stayed too long?' The issue, with my repeated patterns, was that I was expending a lot more energy into them, than what I was getting in return, and thus created a pattern, of just staying several years, too long.

Why, settle for less than you deserve? This new friend of yours, yes, he replies back, on his terms. But he doesn't give back. Never mind, not take the lead, it's you, who initiates all the contact. All self-esteem issues aside, it's you who is doing all the work. It leads to being mistreated, door-matted, etc.

Will, you really be 'fine with this'? Considering your SI, side of yourself(I hope you don't mind my bringing that into this), isn't this the relational way of self abuse? I care, and I point that out. Just because, you aren't feeling confident about yourself, your sexual identity, et al, just because you are starting to find yourself, doesn't give anyone else the right, to not treat you like you matter to them, as much as they do to you!

^^^on that note: I'll tell you, what I know deep down, my therapist would tell me, if having concerns with any relationship. You need to bring this up! You need to talk about it. You cannot sweep it under the rug, you cannot back burner it.

Can say, ""listen, I really like you. I'd like to get to know you more, spend more time with you(what ever it is, that you'd like to see from this friendship), it's just that I 'need' to have a little more balance in this equation. I'd like to hear from you, I'd like for you to initiate as close to evenly, as possible. What are your thoughts?""

That removes, bringing your insecurities to the forefront. Yet, it expresses that you have needs that need to be addressed. And from there, see, how he responds, and from there, you can make a more educated, informed decision, about him and his intentions.

But if I don't expend energy at the beginning, I have no chance. Especially if I want to be with a guy in any capacity.

My friendships until recently have been like this too…generally if I want to socialize, I either have to be in the right place at the right time (like if I'm right there when they're talking about doing something and it would be rude if they didn't invite me) or I sort of "force" myself into the situation so I won't be left out.

Or my friendships may be one-sided the other way, as in they give me more than I can possibly give back.

It's something like this or nothing. Unlike other guys, I can at least feel safe around him and feel like I don't have to watch what I say or that he's going to acknowledge if I say something stupid or have to say I don't know something and appear stupid or that I didn't pay attention at all in college. He doesn't mind the least favorable aspects of me…at least the ones he knows of. Do you know how often all of this happens between me and a guy. Very rarely to never.

So what do I do, wait around years and years and hope someone takes the initiative? And then I WON'T feel safe.

This whole thing with the emotional roller coaster and all and coming to terms with the fact that he won't answer a lot of my texts has led me to self-harm again after I'd been clean for quite a while (not like I'm blaming of course, I'm just pointing it out).

But doesn't though? I mean, doesn't everyone around hear say something to the effect of if you don't love yourself then no one will ever love you, which is the same as not deserving to be loved. So that gives them every right to treat me like I don't matter because I don't since I have low self-esteem.

Isn't it a bit late now? I know there was also an instance that he said something that hurt my feelings (without meaning to, I'm just really sensitive about certain things) and it's been bothering me since. It led to "punishment" self-harm (again, I'm not blaming him or saying it's fault, as it isn't, just stating how things are). I can't talk about it now.

And about this, it's been more than a week since I've talked to him, it just seems unfair to come out of the blue with such a strong statement. I mean, I will have to interact with him again on some level, I really don't want this to turn into a fight.

Besides, he has had to sacrifice what he wants already, so in a way, this kind of seems fair.

One more thing…guys don't even want to be friends with me, so I really should just get over guys already. I hate having feelings that I know I can never express or have reciprocated. I hate that guys think it's so horrible that I would like them.

It's like there's something wrong with me for liking the OPPOSITE sex.

I guess it's dangerous for a guy to even be my friend (if he's single anyway) because I'll probably like him. I know, I know, the horror.

It's a strong statement, yes, but not a fighting statement. Trust me, on that. I've had, to have needs discussions before. It comes back, as bonding, not arguing, whatsoever. Provided, you leave out everything else, about how you perceive the other person as viewing you, just state a need, and see if it can be met. Why is he sacrificing? What is he sacrificing?

I don't know…before (with another guy) just saying that I can't talk at the moment because I'm too upset/depressed to think or have constructive conversation at the moment was fighting words. I mean, it wasn't like I was saying I'd NEVER have the conversation, I just wanted to do it when I was in the right mind, but boy did that tick him off! I was going to apologize until he started texting me some pretty nasty stuff.

But the point is, whenever someone says "we need to talk" or starts a conversation of that nature, it's sure to drive away the other person. Or start a fight. He doesn't seem to be that kind of person, but I don't know everything about him. I just don't want to come off as needy (which I probably already do), aggressive, mean, or a b****. Because I usually come across that way even though I literally have no way of defending myself (and he knows that). Which I realize might mean I'm NOT safe around him since he knows I go down easily and which joints are the most sensitive (I have joint problems). Man, what have I done?

As for the other question, since I have dietary restrictions, if we eat anything, this effects what restaurants we can go to and that's unfair to him. Also, because of my joint problems, he has to deal with me wearing a retainer (which is gross, especially when I have to take it out) or my wrist braces (which are gross because they get gross when you wear them most of the time. And if I don't wear the braces, I really shouldn't lift anything or put pressure on those joints, so that kind of puts pressure on him to do all of that.

As to why he's making sacrifices, I can't answer for him.

There's a way, to bring up 'needs' without it being a 'we need to talk' moment, and a way that's not confrontational, nor displaying a sense of 'neediness'. It's a mature way, to conduct a relationship. It's not feelings based, which is the clincher. Marriage counselors use this stuff, all the time. That's where I discovered my needs list, which my therapist, wanted me to explore before ever getting involved again. Needs aren't about 'feelings', needs are about what a person needs for a relationship to survive. We all have them, men and women alike, young and old. (and all those ages in between). It can even be expressed, in a heartfelt way, via phone, via text, via e-mail, Skype, in person. Asking for thoughts, in return, is a way of bring it to a round discussion.

Recipricosity, (sp?) is a valid need on one of the marriage counseling sites lists. Granted, I am no longer married, nor with any near future plans of being so, these lists are a great resource for navigating the dating/relationship side of life.

I was never taught any of this nor did I have enough experience when I was younger to learn how this works. And I know I always do it wrong. Also, aren't you supposed to compromise in relationships? I sort of feel like having initiate contact as well is more of a want than a need. I'm not sure if I really have any "needs", I mean, I'll take what I can get. I mean, someone replying to my texts and actually having a conversation? I mean that's pretty special for me. Sure, I'd want him to initiate conversation, but that means it's a want, not a need, right?

Having reciprocal contact is a 'need'. I wasn't taught this in childhood, either. I just started this aspect in therapy, earlier, this year.

Relationships are about compromise, yes. It's also about fairness and respect.

Is this relationship, about just having a relationship, for the sake of having one?

Taking what you can get, ADM! (ai dios mios)

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Perhaps my definition of a need and a want are different? I always thought that a need was something that you couldn't live without, like food and water. I'm not sure how that pertains to relationships though…. And then a want was something that would make life easier or better, but wasn't necessary.

Sorry, I'm having trouble seeing why reciprocal contact is a need and not a want.

I can see where compromise and respect could be considered as needs. And life is inherently unfair, so wouldn't fairness be more of a want?

This relationship isn't just about having a relationship…it's about having a relationship with someone that makes me feel safe (which is extremely rare) and doesn't make me feel self-conscious about what I say and do (which is also extremely rare). And we also have complimentary career goals…I really can't see all of these things happening simultaneously again. I haven't even tried really pursuing anyone for a couple years and it'll be a couple more years or more before I'd try again. It may seem like I have all the time in the world now, but in another 10 years or more, I'd be running out of time. I'm supposed to know and understand all of these things already because of my age and have all this experience both in relationships and sexually. It's already intimidating enough as it is, but the older I get, the more intimidating it becomes. So in another 10 years or more it's going to be way too intimidating…and it may be selfish, but I don't know if I can handle being someone's second or third wife (which would be my only choices at that age) because I don't want to be compared to them.

Where I'm from almost everyone are married/in long-term relationships by their mid to late 20's…there's not a lot of choices left as it is. So to find someone in their early 30's who isn't married and is actually mature for a guy? When would that happen again?

This is hard for me as my fear of rejection has kept me from really ever doing the pursuing. If it were me, I'd send him something where you leave the ball in his court. Maybe something along the lines of this: Hey hope your well. I know you're busy, I would like to see you again if possible. If that's something you wanna do let me know. Look forward to hearing from you.

I'd let it lay after that. No future texts/calls/etc. This kills two birds with one stone- you're no longer responsible for the contact, and you're also giving the opportunity for another date. Hope this helps!

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This statement here is contradictory to your opening post. Everything you're saying is about being self-conscious about what you're saying and doing with this guy.

The other thing you've brought up is that you don't understand why it needs to be two sided vs one sided. A relationship by definition is between two people, not one person doing everything required. I can relate to this, as I've sometimes acted that way. But it will never, ever work if you don't give the other person a chance to put forth their efforts and energy into this.

Either they like you or they don't. In my experience, if a man truly likes you, there is little room for doubt. If there is confusion, doubts, being super self conscious, then either he is playing games, effed up, or using you.

I've also found that men (and some women) do NOT like to be pressured. I'm pretty sure you've given him the message that you're interested, don't chase. This makes a person appear desperate, I'm not saying you are, but the appearance of desperation is not attractive to anyone.

Hope that helps and forgive me if it was too harsh.

Because, it takes two people to make a relationship. That's why it being reciprocal, is a need v. Want. I'm not pulling this marriage counseling needs list, out of thin air. There are things, that relationships need to have, to work.
You are posting here, clearly, something isn't gelling. You have unmet needs, by this man.
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Relationships and the Importance of Reciprocity

I didn't find the list, yet, from archives on this one, which is where I am sure, I found it, at this point, I need to delve into my own journals, to find specifically the 'big needs list', but here are a couple more sites, that discuss 'needs', where relationships are concerned, (crossing my fingers, I am not violating TOS, of PC, and if I am, mods please just remove and forgive me, in the spirit of this thread)

The Most Important Emotional Needs

(this one, has almost all the 'big needs' listed, as I was browsing..)

List of Relationship Needs | True Potential Blog

I've already done that…or something similar. He was also in town for a conference and I asked him if he had time if he'd like to meet. He apparently didn't have time and maybe that was unfair to ask…I don't know…it's just that he'd rather go watch 4 hours of rehearsals (not concerts) instead of meeting me/talking to me. I can understand he'd rather go to concerts or going to classes (I don't remember what they're called at a conference) than talk to me. I would also understand why he'd rather go to the banquet whether than doing anything with me because he'll find out who's retiring and whose job he can take.

I also can't take rejection and rarely pursue a guy. But if I NEVER pursue a guy I never have a chance. A guy will never pursue me and even if he does he tries about as little as he can. I mean, I show a little resistance and apprehension at first and they never talk to me again…that's not normal if he's "pursuing me" right? I mean, wouldn't they try more than once? If I act like I don't want to kiss on the first date (which I didn't even know was a date), is it normal to just move on if he liked me? For example...

I'm not self-conscious in person though. I am more self-conscious with any other communication because it seems that the slightest thing will make someone go from liking me to hating me and I don't want to mess up again. I don't know how many chances I'll get, if I'll get any more.

To be honest, I am desperate, but I'm trying not to show it.

I've also noticed that with guys that if you don't respond to pressure they just move on because other girls WILL kiss on the first date (and will actually be aware that it's a date because they're less of an innocent moron than me). I mean, why bother with someone who isn't giving them sex immediately when they could go with someone who would? And don't say that if he "loves" you, he'll just wait no problem. I mean, that's not good for them physically and it's kind of cruel to make them wait unless they have little to no sex drive.

I'm also posting here because I don't understand what I'm supposed to do to…especially since I'm sure I've screwed everything up by mentioning negative things about myself. I really just hate having to hide everything…what are we going to talk about if I have to kill nearly every conversation to avoid anything that isn't 100% positive?

This just looks like a fairy tale…it would be nice if this happened in real life, but someday I have to grow up and be realistic. It's the same with my career, someday (pretty soon actually) I have to wake up and realize that I'll be doing anything but what I want to do. I would be fine with just having a job I don't absolutely hate and a relationship with someone who isn't abusive. Anything more is a pipe dream.

I wouldn't classify marriagebuilders, as fairy tale. I knew, to look there, because, the last support board, I belonged to, some were using, to overcome affairs.

There's good, information, in there.
I'm sorry, your guy, didn't make time for you, while in town at a conference. That's, painful, when others don't make an extra effort.

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I just meant the elements that were mentioned all seemed too good to be true…I mean, that would be the ideal, but the chances of having a relationship where a lot of those elements were part of it, doesn't sound possible to me. I just don't see the majority of guys going to that much trouble for sex. Or at least not without being bitter about it.

And as for the guy, he's someone who's lucky enough to be on his way to getting a job in the career field he actually wants to be in so obviously his career is the most important. So I don't hold it against him for not being able to find a large enough window of time for me. I mean, this conference is once a year, and I'll be here and single all year.

I guess I just made the mistake of thinking that the rehearsals weren't as important to attend, but he could possibly pick up rehearsal techniques and I should have known that. I feel like I was just being selfish thinking he could spare a couple of hours or so from the conference.

There's nothing more than sex?

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