Grieving my marriahe

The congitive dissonance is really tough. It's the thing that I struggle with the most. How do you wrap your head around that sort of thing?

I was convinced for almost four years that dh had some kind of early onset behavior variant dementia because there was no part of me that could accept that he would treat me the way he was otherwise. I still think he may have some physiological damages, but I am now also slowly seeing patterns of behavior going back many years. Back then, they were milder and I gave him a pass- then they got bad and the bad just didn't seem like the person I knew.

Anyhow, even if he is sick, even if your wife is sick, we shouldn't tolerate the behaviors and treatment we have been subjected to. It took me a while to see that boundaries don't have to be mean, even if he doesn't like them and thinks they are.

Learning about covert manipulations and control tactics has helped a lot too. It's external validation of things experienced. Things that can be very hard to pinpoint, and things that other people will probably not see.

It also helped when he got so out of control that there was no doubt about how messed up he has become. At that point it was like a light going on in my head that no matter what happens, I need to take care of myself first (as well as kiddo). That caused me to emotionally detach from him to a large extent, and as sad as it feels, it's also a blessing that keeps me in a place where I don't succumb to emotions around him anymore. I'm also don't get into involved conversations with him anymore. The pattern was that they always got turned around on me so there was no reason to keep doing it. Nothing ever got solved to my satisfaction. Ever. The power of giving up?

In codependent no more, she says have a love affair with yourself. That's where I am right now- rediscovering me separate from him, and we'll see where it goes eventually. A few weeks ago he was going on in a very self centered way, I finally told him that I was the first person I had abandoned and that i need to reconnect with myself. He accused me of being selfish and one sided! It's okay when we are both focused on him, but when I focus on myself the way he focuses on himself, it's a problem. Wow, lightbulb. Backing away and detaching gives a lot of perspective.

I'm so sorry that you are going through this. If it's anything like my situation, I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Adult children don’t just wake up one day and say “I’m done with my parent, I don’t ever want to speak to them again.” Making that decision usually takes years and many failed attempts to heal the relationship. Cutting off a parent comes with immense grief and lots of shaming.

Your oldest son already wants his mother out of his life and your younger son agrees. They both are trying to tell you how hard it’s been for them. They care about you and want you to be a part of their lives. They genuinely do not want to deal with their mother.

Life with your wife, their mother is too unhealthy for them. Your wife is going to end up having children that will not have her be part of their lives.

Her friends are very much supporting her and believing what she is saying, and adding to it.

Except one, who told me she quit meeting with my wife and her new friends because she found her new friendships and relationships too toxic. This woman said, it was all bizarre to see a bunch of middle aged mothers talking and acting like they were and she wanted no part of it. She also told me one of the ladies has had a lot of negative things to say about me for over a year and my wife has never stopped her.

My youngest saw her texts to her new work colleagues, telling them she needed support to transition out of the house because of all she was going through.

Me and the kids asked her to leave for at least a few weeks. She refused. Her name is on the mortgage as well, so she is staying.

Yes, the weekend with the kids was good and Sunday and today I'm physically sick. My youngest is home from school again because their stomach is wrecked and can't leave the bathroom.

I'm going to have to investigate what it will take to escalate this and have her out of the house for the school year so that youngest will be successful.. That will require the youngest to request this, and I am worried about it appearing like I am pressuring them to do this.

RDMercer

The toxic behavior your wife is choosing to engage in being cheered on by these other women has been causing her children to become ill. Now you know this is not a case of you encouraging them but instead they are genuinely suffering and are reaching out for help in the only way they know how.

Your wife came home to you and your sons freshly determined to announce her desire to walk away from her family. Your children had a good time with you and then they had to witness their mother go up one side of you and down the other telling you that you are a failure. And they KNOW that’s not true. It’s making them sick RD.

It may be a good idea for your youngest son to sit with the guidance counselor at school and share his concerns and see if she can help with finding help for you that you can afford. You can no longer ignore this. This counselor may have resources to help you and your sons that you don’t know about.

This woman that got upset and shared with you that these individuals guiding your wife are toxic is a red flag.

My tolerance for weirdness is pretty high.

I came home, got physically sick. Made myself settle my nerves some.

Made a meal, ate with kids, hung out, watched TV, oldest went to workout.

Feeling relaxed, enjoying being home.

See a loving picture of me and my wife.

Start questioning everything. What did I do wrong? How can I undo it? How can I get her back? I wonder if she'd watch a documentary with me tonight.

WTF is wrong with me?

Also....

My oldest said to me last night.

You grew up on a farm, in an alcoholic home. You were used to being over responsible at a young age. And no matter how much responsibility you shouldered it was never like someone said thank you, you're awesome, good job.

So then you just found or created that same pattern in your adult life, where the responsibility and blame are yours, and you're hungry for some credit and positivity that you never get.

RDM

Your oldest is wise and is showing you he has made an effort to understand how alcoholism
In a parent affects children.

He is right, it’s familiar to you so you unknowingly learned how to become codependent from an early age.

You cannot fix an alcoholic. They have to make the decision to get sober and learn how to live a more functional life which includes becoming much more self aware. Self aware in recognizing how their behaviors and choices affect others.

Alcoholics make bad choices and like to play the victim and see others as the bad guy. They can be very moody and can hide their need for alcohol. They can seem friendly and warm and ok, yet that typically means they have alcohol in their system.

RD, I am so sorry. You sound like you are in such a rough place.

There's nothing wrong with you that wouldn't be happening to anyone else in your shoes. You are a giving, loving person. Perhaps too much so

Positive thoughts for you. It really sucks sometimes.

Wow your oldest has done his homework and has truly excellent insight!

it speaks very well of you, too, that he felt free to say that to you.

I bet he is trying to help you see your pattern so that you can break free from it.

You couldn't fix your household as a child, and you can't fix your household now.

You can, though, choose to break free, rather than unconsciously, reflexively repeating the past.

WOW. Now that's a SMART kid!!!!!!! He has incredible insights that are dead on accurate.

And what probably will also happen is they won't want much to do with you either, because you enabled your wife to abuse them and yourself.

You have known what you should do this whole time but you keep having these "talks" and going over the same old ground.

Your children are MORE IMPORTANT than she is. I'm sure they don't feel like they are with this example of what marriage is.

I go over these same old loops because I feel so unbelievably insane.

The way I identify as feeling on here doesn't correspond necessarily with my actions.

Just sorting stuff in my head

These loops you describe come with being a codependent which is a role you played growing up. Your son is right. YES it can make a person n crazy/feel insane. Go to an Alanon meeting and you will find others who can relate.

You grew up with an alcoholic parent. You ended up learning how to survive in a dysfunctional home caused by alcoholism. You still practice these old skills and carry the guilt of feeling of you being a failure and having the same desires of wanting the ideal home and family life.

Is that what you want for your children?

Your wife went away and you got to enjoy your sons and have fun. Then your wife came home with her disordered dysfunctional behaviors. Now you and your sons literally feel sick and your son is withdrawing and not able to get up and go to school. THAT is part of the loop that you and your sons have been trying to survive. Yes! That is the insanity.

Alcoholics do not develop maturity. They do not learn how to regulate their emotions. Instead these individuals use the alcohol to self medicate to help numb them. It is not unusual for an alcoholic to also use other drugs. They tend to have problems in two main areas work and relationships. It’s not unusual for them to gravitate towards others that also have addiction problems.

When it comes to both work and relationships they tend to fall apart with certain challenges and need a time out to escape.

For thirty two years I have witnessed this in many who try to get sober and live sober. These individuals look for sponsors and in that are looking for a parent figure to help them talk out their emotional life challenges they never learned how to work through and instead began self medicating for. The truth is because of the drinking, they lack true adult maturity.

The reason why this is known as a “narcissistic” disease/disorder is because narcissists do not know how to regulate their emotions and tend to project and create their own reality. They are always looking for an outside answer/reward to settle their inside turmoil and insecurities. These individuals don’t care and love, instead they use and expect others to fit their needs. They love using and expect others to fill their needs and wants “their fantasy”.

There are narcissists and other disordered individuals that become alcoholics and addicts. They never really stop “using” others for their own gain. And those that claim to have special powers and they need to believe that they do.

Alcoholics are immature individuals looking for a parent figure. This makes them susceptible to latching on to a person that may guide them to believe they are a victim and blame others for their problems. “ it’s not you, it’s your husband”. And the problem with this is a person is being advised without the advisor even knowing the husband.

It’s very hard to love someone who is an alcoholic. The damages tend to get passed down from one generation to the next. You see, there is a young teen and he is suffering and doesn’t know what to do with the emotions he is experiencing. So much so that he gets sick to his stomach and can’t get up and go to school. He is already on a path of possibly also developing a self medicating addiction.

Don’t you think he wants to feel safe to love his mother? His mother is NOT SAFE to love. His mother is not even aware of how her behaviors are affecting her own family. LACK OF SELF AWARNESS! And she has some women that are encouraging her to believe SHE is the victim when she needs to see her own disordered dysfunctional part.

I believe that you have been trying. I believe you also tried when you were growing up with an alcoholic parent. You cannot blame yourself for their disease or disorders. There are things you did not know and do not know now. You cannot fix your wife, the only thing you can do is to learn how to stop being a codependent and to accept that your wife is not going to provide you with that normal family life you always wanted. She has been telling you she wants out, believe her and let her go. You and your sons deserve to feel safe to be happy.

This is important:

"His mother is NOT SAFE to love. His mother is not even aware of how her behaviors are affecting her own family. LACK OF SELF AWARNESS! And she has some women that are encouraging her to believe SHE is the victim when she needs to see her own disordered dysfunctional part."

Again, last night, my wife took huge issue that I had found fault with her as a parent, and that I had asked her to leave the house on the weekend.

I replied, I've spent years trying to get you to see that you are doing deep damage to your relationships with the kids. The kids are physically and emotionally sick. They have asked me to advocate for them. They are past their limits and want you out.

She replied, "See? All you do is criticize me!"

I asked, Why is it a bigger deal that I've told you about these things than that you've DONE these things?

She replied with, "There's no moving forward with you. You're just constantly critical."

I've reviewed text strings and emails with my psych counselor for years. She pointed out there is rarely if ever ownership, just deflection.

When my wife cursed me out recently and I said, "You can't speak to me like that, that's too much," I was offensive for being critical of her.

Again, you are choosing to go over this same old ground and never get a different result. You are choosing this.

Find a therapist to help you MOVE FORWARD. The one you've been seeing is not helping you. This is a lost cause and you are in danger of losing your children's respect because you are not moving forward with cutting yourself off from this abuser of them.

Put your kids FIRST for once. Not her and not this weird delusion you're under that she has the capability of being a safe partner for you/mother for them.

My therapist has helped, albeit slowly. She helped me to see I was accepting too much responsibility and to start having more expectations.

There is stuff happening that you all can't see. I am taking steps such as looking for housing, figuring out finances, etc.

I'm not there yet emotionally. This is extremely hard to come to terms with, but I'm letting go. The kids are excited about a fresh start. I'm surprised they aren't more upset about the possiblility of moving and changing schools.

I'm so sorry to hear that. I'm also in a broken marriage now and I didn't do anything with the signs as my wife is conflict adverse so she will leave a problem to grow rather than address it.

Over the years she slowly has changed and we all change over time, relationships should evolve with mutual respect and love. But if she is not including you or distancing herself from you it's pretty much a given that she is not invested in the relationship. I would much rather have my wife angry and argue with me than the years of silence keeping the peace, not having her needs met and slowly drifting apart until its too late to do anything.

I am having feelings of wanting to hug my wife or show physical closeness because I'm hurting and I do care and love her, but I don't want to push her away. It's hard to want to be close to someone when you know they want to avoid being close to you.

How did she respond to your kiss and affection? Do you think it helps or pushes her away more? I'm very scared to do anything to push my wife away anymore than we are.

It sounds like you have done all you can for your end of the bargain. The reality is we can't make someone love us, and though they may have loved us at one point, the feelings just are not there. Both parties have to put in the effort and unfortunately the one who tries the hardest ends up being hurt the most.

Best wishes to you and you are not alone even though it feels that way. One day at a time celebrate small wins and work on yourself and treat yourself kindly.

@RDMercer, good for you that you stood up to her. Of course she won’t like it and will try to turn things around making it your fault. But don’t suck back, stand your ground.

@openeyes

I said before that things began to change during Covid.

The kids were really, really effected by the lockdown. So was she.

I made the mistake of saying things like, "This is hard, but the kids need you. I know you are struggling but so are they. I can't homeschool them and work from home. If I can't work from home I risk being put off work by my employer and I'm the only income."

That got a flurry of comebacks each time, which, each time, culminated with, "But you looked at p0rn and lied about it."

THE DAY I said, "Yes, I did, and I will be sorry for that for the rest of my life, but it doesn't mean you are right ever after because of that," things began to change between us.

As soon as I had any level of expectation from her, things began to change.

The best example, which the kids witnessed happen, was her getting angry at me for the house not being clean enough, though I was working and renovating the house. I was doing dishes at the moment. I replied, "OK, I understand you being upset with the state of the house. Since we are talking like that, please quit putting your take out coffee cups in the sink. They aren't dishes, they're garbage."

She doubled down and got angrier at me. I said again, "I know, you are frustrated with the division of chores in the house, and need me to do different things when it comes to cleaning. OK. But please quit putting your coffee cups in the sink or on the counter for me to clean up. They're garbage. Dump them and throw them out."

That was enough of an affront that she was still bringing it up a year later.

Yes, for real.

The more I say this stuff out loud, the more I realize I have had blinders on for a long time.

I'm starting to look at properties.

This sucks. Both for personal and religious reasons, I believe in marriage for life. This was supposed to be my person forever.

Covid was certainly hard for many people. Lots of businesses suffered, anything that involved people being exposed to other people. This included church services and people who needed AA meetings to help them stay sober. People were learning how to set up zoom meetings. People began having their therapy over the phone. Lots of people were suddenly out of work that suddenly could not pay their bills.

From what you shared your wife was exposed for how bad her drinking really was and how little she was actually doing while you and your children were gone during the day. She was using coffee/caffeine to wake up and alcohol to numb. This did not happen overnight. You are not the first person to be busy and not notice it right away. You are not the first to be treated like YOU are the bad guy and to have anything you did wrong thrown in your face to protect their disease of addiction.

Alcoholics don’t live in the real world, their life revolves around their disease. And they use all the techniques a narcissist used to hide their disease.

I've been house shopping with my kids. They are happy and excited. I found a place with a small apartment attached, suitable for a young man to make his first place. We'll see if I can get financing for it.

I'm shaking writing this, and have been stomach sick all evening.

This is terrifying to me and heartbreaking.

I'm re-examining every mistake, wondering what I could do different or how I could reach her.

I've always felt like I needed someone, like I can do the day to day stuff but needed a partner who was the brains of the operation.

Despite all the responsibility I've had, I always felt like it was shared and like I was partnered with someone smarter than me who will help me find solutions.

This hurts so much and I'm scared. This was our "together" town, where we would build a united future, in our forever home.

25 years together. I don't hate her, I'm not angry at her. I really think she's not mentally well.

It would be easier to be angry.

RDM

RD, your wife has already declared several times now that she wants a divorce. Believe her!

She doesn’t even care about what you think.