Trying to move forward

Validation from my oldest went a long way to me seeing my value.

My former manager, whom I really respected, and coworkers, telling me how much leadership they saw from me during the first year of Covid went a long way, and then the people who stepped in to support and "catch" me in the first weeks after my separation.... They were people I regarded as deeply good, intelligent people, and they saw value in me.

Marcus Aurelius said you are the average of the five people you are closest to. A good friend, whom I respect hugely, said that to me, and thanked me for skewing his average higher by being his friend.

You guys see value in me, and you are thoughtful (not "nice", I mean people who proceed with thought), insightful people.

So.... I'm getting there.

I have to work on impulse control. I'm easily baited by her and defensive.

Thank you.

I'll think of you when making donations.

I like that Marcus Aurelius quote.

I worked with a guy named marcus, and i used to call him "marcus oh really us", but i think im the only one who got the joke. Okay, it wasnt a BIG joke. He was definitely a shining star.

You are only human, things will bother you and your wife already knows your weaknesses. Narcissistic individuals can be very cold and calculating in a way a nice caring person doesn’t expect. It takes time to get aquatinted with a toxic persons behavior patterns that are all self serving.

@RDMercer, how did your weekend go?

It was good, but hard.

Socializing and not worrying about drama from her at every turn was good.

Lots of emotions though. I really have defined myself as a family man, as a married man. I don't even want to be in public since we separated.

Can someone give me a reason not to tell my wife off?

I'm still burning with the desire to get angry at her.

Nothing to be gained, I guess.

It’s understandable that you feel shame or embarrassment about not having the family you so wanted. Part of blaming self is a way to think it’s still possible if you change or fix it. Once you begin to see it is not anything you can fix, it can be devastating.

Truth is, some people are not capable of loving the way you want, no matter how hard you try. It’s very possible if not probable that your wife will never actually love anyone. This woman that distanced herself from the group of women your wife follows is not capable of being so cold and calculated. It sounds like she is able to view conversations and continues to find it disturbing.

It’s very important to observe and listen. To have help in identifying the toxic so you don’t end up suffering takes time. It’s hard not to take the bait and react. As I mentioned, I went through hell with my older sister. I loved her and wanted to be close, but she had a pathological jealousy and she wanted to hurt me.

Getting angry and lashing out is useless, it only gives them a sense of power. It’s very hard to comprehend that when you love and really care. Then you have the abuse of alcohol that adds more negative.

You would not want your children to end up with a spouse like this. You want them loved and respected right?

Did your children interact with your wife yesterday? It was most likely hard for them.

I gave them the option. They declined.

I asked on Sunday how they each were. "Fine. This is normal, and it's easier. If she was here, at some point she'd have found a problem and created drama anyway."

It sounds like your friends visiting helped. You are recognizing how much healthier things are with your wife not around. It’s sad and disappointing, yet something you needed to experience to let you know the level of toxic you had been enduring. Too much anticipating some kind of negative is very unhealthy.

That was the kids commenting that there would have been drama.

RDMercer

It’s good that they know they can talk to you about it and you will respect how they feel.

I second this.
When I am really down, I sometimes post crying emoji in my facebook timeline. There is always somebody who reaches out. Often a person In have not been in years. Those chats and meetings are among the lost meaningful encounters I have.

If in fact you had been dealing and are dealing with a covert narcissist in your wife often these feelings of guilt and pity take place. This kind of narcissist is constantly functioning in a loop between elation and depletion This type of narcissist tends to present as fragile and vulnerable and they use this fragile presentation as a way to gain attention and power.

In a family, everyone feels uneasy and learns to live in a love starved state. What becomes most important is feeding this disordered individual so there is some sort of peace. This is what learning to become a codependent looks like.

What struck me in listening to you describe your wife’s behaviors and what these other women have come together in getting their needs met IS narcissistic. They have decided the best way to get their needs met is to become USERS.

There is NO LOVE instead just using. As long as you pity them and feel guilt they control you. The only way to heal is to see your own value. To understand you are not a failure.

It’s understandable that as you see the reality you experience anger. The key is not to seek revenge or lash out. This can be hard, but to lash out goes against your character of being a good caring person.

Open eyes, great post about the cycle of the covert narcissist. I needed that this morning. Thanks.

I so badly want to hit her with a dose of truth.

Force me out of the house, we move away.

Force me me to court, and hear the kids tell the court all the crazy stuff you've done, and that they want no contact.

Recognize there's a strong chance we'll be given exclusive rights to the family home, and you'll be forced to pay child support.

One of my conditions for the sale of the home is that the profits get split three ways, with one being an education trust for the kids, because the deserve that support and should have it.

So... The big payday isn't going to be that big, and isn't coming soon.

Oh... And the kids know our phone codes. They creeped our text messages and took pictures of conversations between you and men we don't know... I don't want to see them, but they are "cringey" according to the kids.

And a friend saw you at a bar with a man last fall. Alone.

Can truth reach a covert narcissist?

Or just wait for my lawyer to unveil all this?

I just want her to face some reality, have a major "oh crap" moment.... And go away.

Confrontations with a narcissist never turn out well. The narcissist always finds a way to turn it around on a person and to blame the other person for all that they themselves have done. There's basically no point, and it always ends in frustration.

Ugh, I’m sorry! How awful and upsetting it is to see the cold hard facts about your wife. Sad how your children have had to witness all the toxic behaviors.

Narcissists are users and they don’t love or genuinely care. Instead it’s all about the high they get when they pursue and catch and control.

They like to manage and control others and be the center of attention. They live in their own fantasy world.

And if they have addiction to alcohol or other drugs it makes it even worse. They already can’t handle reality so they choose to run to the addiction they can get a false high from.

Yeah. This hurts.

What goes through a covert narcissist's mind when they are faced with the truth? Do they just refuse reality?

The truth is the one thing they avoid and they insist on turning things around to blame others.

They do not have the ability to care in any real meaningful way. They gaslight others and they gaslight themselves. They typically only have the maturity level of a seven year old. They can throw horrible tantrums when they don’t get their way or feel they are losing power and control.

It’s even worse if they are alcoholic because they live in constant denials and delusions.

Please know that the anger you experience is not bad. It’s a sign you actually care about yourself and are slowly seeing that you did not deserve to be treated so badly.

This is not the same anger a narcissist experiences in respect to not getting their way and having control over. Narcissists like to have the power and control over others. They see everything as THEIRS. For example, “my house”, “my children”, my hangout etc. it’s not surprising your teenage children don’t want to be around her. This is the age of self development and self discovery not having mom constantly controlling. Yet, in your case they see her problem with drinking and mood swings so they genuinely don’t feel safe.

I had to learn about this myself. I got therapy and every therapist explained to me how to stop giving my older sister qualities she simply doesn’t have and that I was dealing with a very controlling narcissistic person.

Once you learn how to identify this kind of person you start to see how they manipulate and use and are constantly power seeking.

Well, I sent her an email yesterday.

It wasn't aggressive. It was telling her stuff about the kids, a request for a birth certificate for one kid and a request for a health insurance card for a kid.

I told her what finances were looking like, and that if we had to move due to finances or if we were forced out we would be leaving the region for a while.

Her reply

Don't contact me unless it is about the wellbeing of the kids. I'm blocking your phone and email from now on.

I immediately replied and asked how I was supposed to address the wellbeing of the kids if I was blocked everywhere, and that the topics covered WERE about the wellbeing of the kids.

She replied with the same answer.

So I said, I may as well let you know there are real concerns about infidelity while we were married, and said why. It was non emotional, just what I knew.

She replied with

I don't have to explain anything I do to you.

Not a very realistic or "human" response.

RDMercer

From what you have shared, your wife is an expert in withholding and being entitled All she did was show you she has not changed and will use any way possible to punish you.

It’s a waste of time to tell her you now know about her infidelities. People who cheat already don’t care and are just looking for their own ego fix. Given what you have shared your wife is a controlling person and she doesn’t really care about how her choices affects others. Also, she loathes the fact that you have more power than she thought and that she couldn’t bully you into submission.

Also, given that her children don’t want anything to do with her and chose to distance from her on Mother’s Day she will not be cooperative when it comes to discussing their needs with you.

You just got a fresh dose of how cold she can be and that is a reminder of why it’s best for you to let her go so you can find yourself and eventually someone capable of appreciating you.

The

"Righteous and wronged"

Attitude really gets to me.

Nothing matters as much as what's been done to her. And she hasn't caused any of it.

The fact that it matters more to dodge blame than to face what she's done and be accountable to her kids is amazing. That it's more important than seeing her kids is amazing.

I've actually watched some stuff on covert narcissistic collapse. I think that's brewing right now.

On a plus note... This is infuriating, but less than half as infuriating as it would have been 4-6 weeks ago. She's mattering less and less.

Also... Two employers have reached out and asked me to apply for very, very good jobs last week. The first one said the competition and posting was built with my skill set in mind. The second one is even better, and they contacted me the day before it was posted. When I saw it, I thanked them but told them I didn't meet the education requirements (masters degree). They took it down, changed it, reposted it and asked me to apply. If successful it's a big pay increase.

So... Yeah.

One of my wife's former friends told me how much her two BFFs bash me, and have for years, and how much they encouraged her to date snd pursue "something solid, someone she could invest in".

????

Ok.

I'm a good dad. I've got a very, very good job, with more opportunities coming. I'm still in very good shape because I train a couple days a week and because I work hard on our home, yard, cars. I have no addictions. I like to cook and always made meals for our family. I like being married and being a dad.

I think I must be in the top 1/3rd of the dating pool at our age.

Like.... What do they think is out there?

I think I'm trying to rationalize delusion.

The devil caught her ear and she WANTED to listen. To the point where she began to rewrite history. Truth is these are not really friends and that reality will hit her hard down the road. HER CHOICE.

Her choice to abuse alcohol contributed to her becoming more and more unavailable to both you and her children. She never deserved the power you gave her. I think this probably stems from your growing up with an alcoholic parent that was also unavailable. You were too young to understand that had nothing to do with you or your worth.

Yes, you are right in that your wife will learn some hard lessons. She will treat other men as she did you, only to use and discard. Plus her shelf life is rather short compared to yours.

Toxic people tend to use sex as a way to manipulate. Some women think that when they provide sex it has more meaning than it actually does. They give it too soon in a relationship thinking a man will want them more. That tends to not be the case and instead she is just used. Then there are women who with hold and make the man work for it. That often works as men prefer to pursue rather then be pursued. It sounds like that’s what your wife does. Yet, she is not really available in a loving caring way.

One can always tell the degree os narcissism by how a person talks about a partner. Often they will share the most personal details objectifying the other person. This is something I noticed you don’t care to engage in. That just tells me you have actual respect for the other person.

Money is another clue. You can’t really BUY another person. Narcissistic individuals tend to think buying objects secures ownership. That is another kind of being unavailable because things can’t replace real caring.

Then there is resentment where a toxic person decides they are entitled to a partners money when they are not. They often practice bullying and guilt tripping in order to get whatever money they can. It’s a manipulation tactic and you almost gave in and gave too much. You were too willing to blame yourself when NOW you are starting to see the truth.

It’s ok to work hard for someone, but it’s important that person is actually available to appreciate it in a HEALTHY way.

I haven't looked at replies.

I came on here to apologize.

I forgot that I'd voiced these feelings before. It led to some good insights from some other members.

I'm not pandering for compliments. I'm just... Stumped? Confused??

RDM