Communication problems with my kids

For those of you that haven't kept up with my subject being scattered all over this board, I've been having communication and understanding problems with my oldest son and my youngest got involved in it. My oldest son's family had a birthday party last Saturday, and it appeared that I hadn't received an invitation so hubby and I didn't go. We took the gifts over the next day. They weren't home so we left them on the doorstep. It's usual that the parents tell the boys to call and say "Thank you." It got late on Sunday and no call, so I called to see if they had gotten it. It started a fight between my oldest son and I. He wouldn't listen to reason. Then later, my youngest son came over and I asked what had happened at the party because we didn't show up. He told me he didn't want to get involved but later that day, both he and his wife told my hubby what had happened. What the??? Anyway, I feel that I need to express my feelings about the games that have been played since my daughter stopped talking to me. I want to express myself with the FACTS as I see them and keep it short and sweet. This is what I want to say and would like feedback from all of you to see what fault you find with what I have to say. I know I can sound really harsh when I don’t mean to. So… for your consideration:

1. FACT: I have depression and anxiety. I am not “crazy.” My D/A are under control with medication.

2. FACT: Depression and anxiety can warp my thinking but only when they are not under control.

3. FACT: Feelings are neither right or wrong, bad or good, they just ARE. It’s the action behind them that is important.

4. FACT: When I reported Karla to CPS, I wasn’t doing it TO Karla, I was giving her boys a voice in an abusive/neglectful situation.

5. FACT: It backfired because for one, the worker didn’t do her job. She’s known for it.

6. FACT: Karla was already too angry with me, for whatever reasons, to listen to me if I tried to talk rationally with her.

7. FACT: At the time, I had no choice if I wanted things to change for the boys.

8. FACT: Except for the few times I’ve made the effort to bridge the gap between my first-born and I, I HAVE honored her boundaries and will continue to do so. That DOES NOT preclude further attempts for reconciliation on my part.

9. FACT: David told me at the time that any invitations to family functions were “blanket invitations.” It was up to whoever was the most uncomfortable to remove themselves from the situation.

10. FACT: About two years ago I was asked to not attend a party because Karla was going to be there but that I could come afterward. To me, it was a recinding of the original decision.

11. FACT: I could stay away from the party, but I could not walk in after everything was all over. My perception of myself was of a whipped cur sneaking in the back door because I wasn’t good enough to join the main festivities.

12. FACT: I dealt with a difficult situation in a way that was best for me.

13. FACT: Karla was in town the weekend of this last party.

14. FACT: There was doubt whether she would leave on Saturday or not.

15. FACT: I have always received an invitation when there is going to be a birthday party, with that one exception.

16. FACT: For whatever reason, the eVite did NOT get delivered to either of my email addresses.

17. FACT: I did not assume that I was invited simply because Jerry was.

18. FACT: I did not “go over the edge” or “pitch a fit” either time. The only time I did that was three years ago when my depression was completely out of control. Unfortunately, meds for D/A fail at times, so there is no guarantee that it will not happen again. Friends and family members can tell that the illness is taking hold when you know the person who has it. It would be extremely helpful if someone notices something is amiss and brings it to my attention because I can’t always tell. It sneaks up on me sometimes. I would expect that my family would understand and seek to clarify any misunderstanding if it happens.

Ok, after re-reading what I just wrote, I would change prefacing every item with “FACT.” I would just say something to the effect that I was going to state some facts.

Do I sound accusative at all? If so, please tell me where and I’ll reword it. They are all going to be on the defensive, anyway, so the less reason I give them, the better. (errrr I really don't like all those "FACTs" but right now I'm too lazy to delete them all.)

((((((((( sept ))))))))))

i read all of the facts and think this...you were not once accusitory to a single person, and you didn't not bring alot of feeling into it. i think this is a good way of explaining actions based on the facts as they're stated.

you've accused no on of acting out or anything. you've just stated the facts as you see them and, therefore, explaining your past and present actions...basing them on these facts.

that's what i see. is that what you're wanting to come across with? if so, you've succeeded in my thinking.

love and gl,

kd

The only thing I disagree with is the short part. Thats a long list! But I think you stated things well...*checking for I-statements* Yep...looks good to me.

However...I bet this will be met with hostile feelings simply because you are pointing out negatives. People don't like to be told their faults...gosh knows I don't. But I think all your statements are fair. You did a good job of keeping your "feelings" out of the facts. I'd listen to ya...

(((((Tomi)))))

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Kimmy}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Thanks! That's exactly what I wanted to accomplish! So glad you think I have.

Yeah, I know it's not very short, is it? Maybe I can pare it down to the bare minimum. I'll take a look-see. I already know it's going to be met with defensive if not hostility simply because that's the way they are, not to mention my bringing it up.

Do you think I could change the wording any so it doesn't point out "faults"? I'll check for that, too. If you've got any suggestions, I'm all ears.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{1day}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Instead of eliminating some, do you have a top 10...5 etc? Pick the ones that are really bothering you...or are the root of other problems listed, and deal with those? Also, look to combine them. It will make them longer to say, but they won't be any less valid or true.

Does that help any?

Hmmm well you know me Sept... <font color="blue">

I think you have all the information there, but I have a real problem with "I" statements because IMO those who are not aware of such needs (like on a psychological support board?) think "I" statements are purely egotistical. <font color="green">

Do you think you can write these statements more subtlely, and SEND them to the parties involved? Don't put them in a list (which is easy for us to read) but in paragraph, letter form? It might not do ANY good, but at least you will have been able to voice your perspective. After all, their reactions is all about THEM.<font color="purple">

Really, the information is needed by them ... as from where you are coming, and how you see things. Ask them and allow them to voice their perspectives also... and that might be the beginning of communication. Maybe. It's frustrating, isn't it?

i can't put it any better than how kimmydawn did. i think you have done a wonderful job of expressing yourself without accusing anyone.

people are different and they see things differently. an open mind is needed in order to communicate. if people close their mind and do not want to understand where you are coming from, there isn't much you can do.

the way you have wrote how you feel is better than i could have ever done in your shoes. there is no anger in your words, only a request for understanding on where you are coming from. i hope they can open their minds and at least try to understand. their facts differ from yours i am sure, and maybe this will open up the door to communication and they can express, in the same manner you did, how they see things.

i believe writing is the best start to communication. things can be brought out without the fear, anxiety, or anger of a reaction. i only hope that they can open their minds, consider how you see it, write how they see it, and not accuse you of anything but being open, honest, and asking for a little understanding.

"before you pass judgement upon me, read this turmoil between my ears that most call a mind"

i wish you the best. take care
grace

Already thought of eliminating why I called CPS. It really doesn't have anything to do with now. After all, we haven't spoken going on eight years. Guess I thought of that because it got thrown in my face the last time I talked to my oldest son. Leave what's in the past where it belongs.

Combining facts is also a good idea! If I look at it in outline form, it would be the number with anything from a-c and on.

Yeah! You're good, lady!

I had already thought of the "I" statements and how they appear to someone who doesn't know how to communicate, like my son! He doesn't know one single rule!

My first thought is to write and send, but my experience is that my oldest son will just push the delete button and never respond. I want the DILs to hear, too, so I planned on saying it in person. Maybe I should have posted my intention of giving them time for rebuttal.

I don't really expect it to do any good, except for the fact that I'll finally be standing up for myself. So far, I've just been keeping my mouth shut. Result; I get run over all the time.

Hopefully, just the fact that Mom said something will change things. I used to be very vocal. You think they'll sit up and take notice? I sure don't expect them to change their thinking.

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"before you pass judgement upon me, read this turmoil between my ears that most call a mind"

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hehe That's a good one! They already think I don't have a mind! LOL

The biggest problem is they expect everyone to think and act the way they want you to. When I spoke to my oldest son, he wouldn't listen to reason. He didn't accept the fact that the invitation simply wasn't in either of my mailboxes. He thought that if my husband and his youngest brother knew the particulars, then I should have, too. He was angry and justified his anger so he wouldn't have to give it up. My youngest did say that it was his brother's wife that made the big deal, so by the time I talked to my son, she'd got him all worked up and he obviously felt he was standing up for her. I've seen it happen in person. They feed off each other. Hell! At least they stand united... sometimes! Sometimes they work against in each in the same way.

Thanks for your opinion, though. Seems I've accomplished most of what I wanted to; like keeping emotions out of it and not sounding like I was accusing anyone. They're still going to have a problem with it, but hey! I need to do what I feel I need, right? Who knows. It might just get them going in another direction.

Please allow me another post?

Sometimes even - especially - when what we are saying is correct, the person hearing it isn't really receiving the full message. Most ppl who are confronted are immediately, automatically, put on the defensive... and once they make a stand, it's tougher for them to backtrack. That, to me, shows the advantage of putting words in writing.

When we put words into writing, we have time to reread and edit... leave it a bit and come back with another perspective. When we receive something in writing, we have time to, by ourselves, react... reread,.. absorb... and maybe even find the true intent of the writing. We can allow ourselves to accept some or all of it, finding words of reply that fit without demeaning ourselves, and maintaining our sense of dignity.

(((((((((Tomi)))))))))))

I am just reading this and feel for you.

One thing that may help too is to write down your thoughts (like you have) and then leave space for them to clarify what you said and have them respond. This may take some emails back and forth or meeting in person with a letter....either way I think that if you can discuss each point with them and communicate each item with them. By leaving them room on the paper or email to respond (let them know that you want them to clarify each item)...it may help.

I just came back from my therapy apppointment and we were discussing communication problems....she said to me that there are 3 sides to every story - yours, theirs and the words said. It made so much sense to me...I thought it was thought provoking to me

I hope you get through this....I know how much better things would be for you if things could be settled.

Good luck hun.
xoxo

Sis Tomi,
I would have thought the same way that you did. If I did not get an invite then I would have assumed that there were problems between my kids and I and would have not come. I guess common courtesy to me is to give everyone an invite...even if it is a phone call.
I do not think that you are overeacting...especially after reading past posts about things that have happened between you and your kids.
This sounds difficult..and my thoughts are with you.

Jessica

I like your list, I don't think is either long or loaded with "I" Statements.

What I don't have clarity is what you want to accomplish with it. Do you just what to pour out your facts and heart? Or do you want reconciliation? Or do you want to reach a civilized relationship?

I would make my objective as clear as my facts before I shared it with anyway... that's my two cents.

{{{{{{{{Sky}}}}}}}} You can respond as many times as you want! Please don't feel that your responses are unwelcome or limited.

I agree 100% with you for prefering to write things like these, but I know my oldest son. The matter is settled in his mind. He's right and I'm wrong. There's really no hope of changing his mind. What I'm doing is asserting myself and maybe making his wife think that she's the one that over-reacts... or at least, in this one instance. Talk about someone that needs to learn to STOP, THINK, ACT!!

My initial thought was to put these "facts" on 3X5 cards, read them and let them give their side of it. However, my oldest son likes to confuse the issues, so I'm thinking of not letting them speak until I'm done. Maybe if they hear the whole thing together, it will add up on the right column. When they come up with arguments, I'll validate their side but repeat my side; "I understand what you're saying. This is what I'm saying." Something like that... My youngest son would read it, think about it, discuss it with his wife and THEN talk to me about it. Not so with his big brother! He goes with his immediate feelings, cements them, and woe unto you! He's usually always wrong. Only heaven knows how he's so successful with his business! Life with him has usually been like this --> Once in a great while, he'll give in to what I've said but only just to get me to shut up. Just the same, I feel I need to say something at least to let them know I'm not a blithering idiot sitting in my corner where I was told to stay.

It's really a sad thing when your own kids make you feel that way, isn't it?

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she said to me that there are 3 sides to every story - yours, theirs and the words said.

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I'd never thought of it that way! Of course it's true! So many times we let our hurt or anger do the speaking for us and if you're knuckleheaded, like David is, you don't want to take it back! He'd rather rant and rave and scare the hell outta me!

Ok, I'm getting convinced to let them comment after each point. But... I don't waaaannnnna!! hehe It might be easier for my pea brain to handle, too.

Thank you so much for agreeing with me!! It just goes to prove that I'm not the crazy, brainless idiot they think I am.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jessica}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Thank you {{{{{{{{{{{{Gloria}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Thanks, too, for asking what my intent is. You've made me stop and give it serious thought. Perhaps it's the fact that I'm tired of the games but mostly, I'm tired of them acting as if I don't know what I'm doing and have emotional erruptions/melt-downs on a whim. They choose to not understand, discount what I say (worse yet, call it a lie or fabrication) and toss me aside like a dirty rag. In my culture, the matriarch is Respected simply for who she is. On top of that, I haven't done anything for them to treat me like they do except for having kept my mouth shut for many years. I did it in respect for their differences, but they sure don't reciprocate! OOPS! An insight! Methinks I should incorporate that thought into the list, but then... I would bring feelings into it. If you or anyone else reading this has any ideas, please post them.

Thank you for making me think!

Ok... first re-write. I've left the numbers so that it's easy to see where I shortened it or combined.

1. I have depression and anxiety. I am not “crazy” or “brainless” and have not suffered any kind of brain damage. My D/A are under control with medication. When my depression and anxiety are not under control, they can warp my thinking, but only then.

The definition of Depression is “anger turned Inward.” A person with depression tends to blame themselves for anything that goes wrong, therefore, I, at times, wrongly blame myself, not anyone else.

3. Feelings are neither right or wrong, bad or good, they just ARE. It’s the action behind them that is important. It is my habit to STOP, THINK then ACT.

9. David told me at the time (Karla and my situation) that any invitations to family functions were “blanket invitations.” It was up to whoever was the most uncomfortable to remove themselves from the situation.

10. About two years ago I was asked to not attend a party because Karla was going to be there but that I could come afterward. To me, it was a rescinding of the original decision. I respected your wishes and stayed away from the party, but I could not walk in after everything was all over. My perception of myself was of a whipped cur sneaking in the back door because I wasn’t good enough to join the main festivities. I dealt with a difficult situation in a way that was best for me.

13. Karla was in town the weekend of this last party. There was doubt whether she would leave on Saturday or not. I was prepared to continue to Respect HER boundaries, regardless.

15. I have always received an invitation when there is going to be a birthday party, with that one exception. For whatever reason, the eVite did NOT get delivered to either of my email addresses. I did not assume that I was invited simply because Jerry was.

18. I did not “go over the edge” or “pitch a fit” either time. The only time I did that was three years ago when my depression was completely out of control. Unfortunately, meds for D/A fail at times, so there is no guarantee that it will not happen again. Friends and family members can tell that the illness is taking hold when you know the person who has it. It would be extremely helpful if someone notices something is amiss and brings it to my attention because I can’t always tell. It sneaks up on me sometimes. I would expect that my family would understand and seek to clarify any misunderstanding if it happens.

(Iffy on the wording) For years I’ve kept my mouth shut about many things I don’t agree with within the family IN RESPECT for each other’s differences, but it’s time I spoke up for myself and ask for the same respect I’ve given as best I could.

They are sounds very good Tomi.

Several people, Sky, for one, I think have mentioned submitting them in writing. Could you possible send them and email with the list AND deal with it in person? Give them some time to "prepare their side" so to speak? Or to come up with suggestions/fixes?

All I know, is I do best in writing. It allows me to think things through, get the wording right, and NOT be interrupted. I avoid verbal confrontation at all costs. It may just be me...

I like the changes. (((((Tomi)))))

If I promise to think about it, would you be okay with that? I hate verbal confrontations, too, but there are some things that are just too important to deal with through email, I think. It's for sure I won't get a response from them if I just send it through the mail.

I want you to do what is best for you. If you sent it and didn't get a response, you can still do it in person. In fact, I would suggest sending it AND doing it in person.

That way you can always reply, "Well, I sent this to you. You had time to come up with your rebuttles (or whatever)".

Do what makes you most comfortable, you're the important one here.

I don't mean to be a pain but I insist, make your objective (what you want to accomplish) as clear as everything else...Not to be cruel or anything, but, I can see how you feel, and I can hear your facts, but I still don't have clarity in what your goal is... and If I don't ( and I am an "outsider") I have to wonder if your kids will!

Why don't you make the number one of your list the purpose of bringing this up. Here is an example:

1- I want to bring to you some facts because, I would like to be able to communicate with all of you in a positive and respectfull way. I recognized that we are a long way from a cuddling,loving, nurturing manner, but perhaps we should accomplish at least "civilized manner".

and then go on with number 2 listing your facts in what ever way you are comfortable. If you children know where you're heading with this, perhaps they will be more willing to listen, otherwise, it might just sound like "here goes mom nagging again..."

Sorry to be so blunt...Lots of love and respect to you.

Ok, Hun. I think I've got it... In some gentle way, I'll preface the email, sent to each of them, letting them know "there will be a quiz later." That's a phrase we use as a family, but I'll be more straightforward.