Named trauma, some for the first time ever

I wrote a bit about this in another thread, but thought you may understand it better here?

I had to write a list of the historical trauma, and some things I have never ever ever mentioned to anyone else came out. It took a lot of courage for me to email it to T. We are about to start dedicated trauma work, really talk about things, which believe it or not in the 19 months I've been seeing him....we haven't yet.

Now I feel.....scared. I feel I've been punished, or will be, for having said what I have said(written). I also weirdly feel that half of the things I wrote down "don't really matter" and are insignificant and I ought to just get past them.

Feeling very exposed and vulnerable and anxious and many other things right now. Can anyone relate?

I feel a strong need to hide away, crawl into my bed tonight and not get out for a few days. How ill I face my T, after he reads some of the horrid things about me?

((Jane)),

YES, I know exactly how you feel and have experienced this myself. Even though you feel you have told something that will get you in trouble, or is wrong or are afraid you may get a reaction that will hurt you somehow, you did do the right thing. Whatever it is, you have carried this burden much too long and you really do deserve to finally talk about it.

I do believe that in the 19 months you have been in therapy you have not discussed something traumatic that you never told anyone else. Some of these deeply hidden hurts can only be revealed when a patient has "trust" enough in a therapist to discuss them.

Whatever it might be and whatever way you reacted was the only way you knew how to react at the time. It was just where you were at the time skill wise, maturity wise no matter what it may be.

((Hugs))

I felt the same way after disclosing some stuff to former T... Your T sounds like a really good guy, and I don't think he will be judgemental... I know it's scary though. Just keep breathing. Can you get in earlier to see him? or maybe have some phone contact for reassurance?
When I first told former T, it kinda came out unplanned, and it really threw me for a loop. I panicked and called her. She was able to get me in right at the start of the week (out appointments were at the end of the week). I was terrified that she would judge me or think less of me. She was actually really awsome. She reminded me that the stuff was not my fault, and all the shame/embarassment belonged with the abuser...

I stayed home today, I am also physically sick with a horrid cold that I was keeping at bay, but it really hit hard yesterday. But mostly I just needed to hide from the world.

I was up so late last night, crying and sobbing and being super worried about what my T would say or think about me. And having memory after memory playing through my mind constantly. I'm exhausted.

I sent my T another email asking him to please not read the attachment in the first one. I was too late, he read it first and emailed me this morning. He said that it does not change his impression of me nor his willingness to work with me. He told me to take good care of myself and he would see me next week.

It feels kind of a cold response to me, I don't know what would have been better. I feel awful........

To me he was just giving you a simple response that was to reassure you that you are not being judged, to take care of yourself and he will be there for you. Some people don't do well with writing too much and prefer to do face to face therapy/comforting/and support.

I think you should write down how you feel whenever you struggle, allow yourself to calm down because you did take a chance with this, and yes, thats a big deal for you. You can even use this thread if you need to, whatever you need to do we all support you and are here to offer you "comfort". Most of us do know how hard it is to open up, you are being "very brave".

(((Big Bear Hugs)))
OE

I so don't feel brave. I feel that I have been a wimp and stayed home to avoid the world, too worried how I may respond to people feeling as sensitive as I do today. I find being sick reduces my ability to cope even more.

I put a film on this afternoon, a friend told me it was hilarious, and parts were but it made me cry buckets of tears. It was called Tammi. I was looking for distraction from these feelings and thoughts that keep rising up.

You are probably right about my T. When I have brought up hard things in the past he seems to get really serious in his demeanour. I asked him about it one time and he said that when things that are so difficult and take a lot for me to say and have great meaning, he feels that he needs to treat them with the seriousness they deserve. He is very cautious to not say anything that may stress me out more, and has previously told me that he purposely doesn't respond to content of a difficult nature when I email, as he believes I really don't want him to. He is right.

Thanks for helping me to remember that OE. I really would like for him to have told me to not beat myself up, or use more comforting words. I don't know. I need to do that for myself I guess.

Anyway, my boy will be home soon so need to put a happy face on.........

You have a bad cold, you stayed home and took care of yourself, you did the right thing. Also, sharing something that challenged you with your T is "brave" even though part of you feels it is wrong somehow and you should have held it in. You need to be strong for yourself when you have these feelings that tell you you are unworthy and I know that can be a challenge, I have had those struggles too, that is why I started the thread about that "void".

Jane, it is "not" nor "has never been" that you are/were a whimp either, or that you were ever unworthy in any way. The truth is, from what I am observing and seeing, many people do not have the "skills" to listen to others who are struggling emotionally and simply validate the emotions but instead send a message to the person who struggles to stop feeling.

This is something that really does start early where children are taught to "behave" and behave is to do one's best to not be upset or angry and instead just behave and be quiet. It is not unusual for a parent to believe that the child needs to develop the same values as the parent including their taste and how they value things too. In reality, a good parent is really suppose to help each child develop their "own individuality" and also respect the individuality of other's too.

The "healthy" message from a parent is "I am pleased with you and whatever you like to have and do that is productive for you". However, most of the time the message is sent where the parent is pleased when the child only accepts and expresses the likes and tastes and desires of the parent. And with this sets the roots of how we are suppose to surpress our emotions and how a parent begins to send messages of how "not to feel" and "stop being a baby". Also, often what takes place as well is when there is more than one child, the children are not taught how to care about are respect each other, instead they look at each other as "competition for the parent's attentions and affections". Yet, none of the children end up really forming their own sense of being "ok" with their own likes and desires as an individual.

What I hear a lot from you is how you began to follow the path of pleasing and knowing how to care about others without having the right to your own emotional challenges, or even the right to have your "own" and "value your own" too. So "now" that you genuinely do struggle you feel you are wrong or whimpy and that feeling of "fear" is very real because OMG you actually have "emotional unmet needs".

When you did "share" something with your therapist your fear is more about "if" he will actually "validate your personal pain" because that is really what you need him to do "with you", that is really what a therapist needs to have the skill set to do that is important to actually helping a patient "heal".

You are a mother, and you do give the right kind of "care" to your son. What you want is to have that "yourself" too. Jane, that is where the need to "cry" is coming from too. It is "ok" to finally allow yourself to do that too, it is necessary because it leads to finally getting to a point where you can "verbalize" and "understand" that very deep need in the "now" while you are working on "healing". And the emotional challenge often fluctuates between "anger and sadness and just plain fear and guilt".

As you work through whatever you needed to have "help" with, genuine comforting and validating "help", you will slowly gain your sense of "empowerment". That takes time Jane because as you do "get" those needs met, you will "grieve" the people around you who "failed" to provide that not only to you, but each other.

That is what I noticed taking place when I was called into a "drama", actually a couple of "dramas" just this past weekend. I also talked about having a really bad day Monday of last week too. I talked about how I was treated too, even the motion made by my husband to "cover my mouth" too and how he kept saying "stop" and then presented what "he" thought and the situation turned around to become "about him". Honestly, it is amazing how many people do that too, even those who are supposed to be "professionals". I can actually see that in my records, and so can my T.

Your "needs" are right on track and normal Jane, you deserve to sort through them because when you do, you will be one more person who will be able to offer that "right" support to others. It does take time to get there though, but I think it is helpful to understand "where this healing path is leading".

(((Caring Hugs)))
OE

Oh, OE, you are so generous with your responses to me. I appreciate it. ((((OE))))

I am a flippin mess. I need for my T to reassure me somehow that he doesn't now find me repulsive. That he still cares about me. That I am not disgusting. I need, need need....and that is such a vulnerable place to be in. And I feel intense fear that like others in my past, once I trust and open up......he will hurt me.

I have stayed off uni again today! There is some issue between 2 people in a group that I am working on a project with(yep, group work issues again!!!Arrrgh) and I can not face it on top of this! What if it is my fault too? I don't know of course, but I can not risk it..........I am too emotionally sensitive right now to deal with it. So as group leader(why did I say yes when they nominated me!!!!!) I called a meeting for Monday.....4 days away.

Anyway.....I got side tracked......I am hiding from the world because I feel too overwhelmed to deal with any more stress in my life.

And I am too terrified to reach out to my T for help. I sit here, alone, turn to no one(not saying you all are no one because I do appreciate the support here, but real life support is what I need) and keep bursting into tears as memory after memory flips through my head and I realise I told T all about the shameful ways that I responded. Not just the trauma, which is horrid!!!!!! What will he think?

I am stuck in this loop, and despite using all my strategies, and in fact trying to be kind to myself(which I still suck at but try).....I am still here. I know, it may not take the pain away, but it may calm the trauma responses.

Gah! I am rambling like a idiot now. Please excuse this, I am just overwhelmed.

I just need, desperately need, some to catch me, hold me and tell me it will all be ok. I suppose though, I need to find a way to do that for myself.............

ok, blurt over.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((Jane))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

and holding.

I understand it's scary because you let something out and it sounds like what you let out is a big part of how you feel vulnerable too. I can tell you are in a cycle too. Jane, you can't stop it, you just have to let it work through and then it "will" receed again. I know it can be exhausting when so much just comes forward, but you are going to get through it, I promise, and your T is not going to turn you away, he is going to help you work through it.

Do you have any Klonopin or something to relax you while you work past this bad one?

Jane, you do not have to appologize, you are not doing anything wrong, you are not being inconvenient in any way. We are here to listen as much as you need to vent and get support. We know just what you are feeling too, I know I have been there too. Easy now, this will pass and you "will" begin to calm down again. It's perfectly ok to allow yourself to feel too, just remember a lot of this is "not happening now" too. All that is happening now is just that you are finally allowing yourself to let it come out so you can get the help and support you need to work through it. It's time for you to address this and work through it and "heal", no one is going to desert you, I promise ok?

You are not rambling like an idot either. You are making sense and you need to allow these emotions to surface so you can verbalize them. It's ok, it's part of the processing needed in trauma work.



OE

Jane, I doubt that any of the things in your past are so horrible they will repel and alienate your T - I doubt any of it is anything he wouldn't expect to find - the details may vary from patient to patient, but the overall themes are pretty consistent, histories of abusive relationships, traumatic events, etc. You are in that place I know so well - feeling like the things that happened to you were somehow caused by you, were your fault.

They weren't. They happened to you. Someone else did them to you. Remember that.

Did you necessarily handle it well? No, possibly not. Does that somehow make you a bad person? No - how are any of us suppossed to process and get through irrational events in the heat of the moment? It's not easy. Some people are "good under fire" and some aren't. That's why not everyone could be a cop or a soldier or a firefighter. It doesn't mean that those of us who aren't as calm in the moment of crisis are somehow "less human". There is a learned component to all of this, too - that is what you and I and others here are doing - learning to cope. Things happen, we can't change that. We can change how we react to them, and how they affect us.

I too have longed, longed for someone to just tell me "it will be ok" at times of crisis. I never got that. Is that somehow a sign something is wrong with me? Or is it the people around me? Yeah, I vote "not me, them". They are the effing a-holes who "don't get it" or just plain don't want to or even can't "get it." When the people in your life are emotionally stunted, incapable even of reacting the way normal people should and do, it makes it hard on you. But at some point, it hits you, it did for me, and I promise it will for you, that lightbulb moment, when you realize you aren't the one with the problem, they are. And that in itself is liberating.

I hate to say it, but it is family that will screw you over the worst. I have had a couple of times in my life when I had serious issues of one kind or another, when just a kind word even from immediate family would have made such a difference. Let alone other kinds of support. But I never got it - usually, just the opposite, they would compound my problems by being cruel or unfeeling or derisive about it. Which is too bad, because "normal" people don't react that way. They are just FUBAR. All there is to it.

I will tell you how I tried to help someone last week. One of the young PT's at my gym who I work with was in some hot water with his boss. He had continued to do a little free-lance training on the side after he hired in there, at a very minimal fee, for some people from his church with certain physical limitations and not much money. As far as I'm concerned, that is a really nice thing to do, and "harmless" in that it's unlikely those people would afford to join and pay the kind of fees the gym charges anyway. Well, the boss found out, and that is a no-no per corporate rules at this place. So, he had to face being called in to "talk about it". He was kind of concerned they might fire him.

Now, there was honestly not much I could do about that, one way or the other. I'm not involved, it technically isn't my concern or affair. But ... he's a sweet kid, really nice, genuinely cares about his clients. So, I did all I really could do ... gave him a big hug and told him that I would be more than happy to speak with his boss or anyone in the corporate hierarchy and tell them exactly how great I think this kid is, both as a PT and as a man. And I think that little gesture helped him feel better. Luckily, it turned out ok, they kind of disciplined him a bit by changing his schedule back to working more on weekends, but he was OK with that anyway, because he just started back at school to finish his degree and was losing some time on other days anyway.

That is the kind of thing people should do for each other - loving kindness, support. But a lot of people just don't, or can't. Which is a shame, because it seems we got stuck with people like that.

((Mowtown)), That was such a beautiful thing you did with that young man. It took you a lot of time to really be able to get to that level too. And a lot of people do not understand that about people who struggle with "complex PTSD" either. Honestly, and sadly, a lot of professionals don't really get it either which is "why" so many are misdiagnosed who struggle with complex PTSD. And quite honestly, a lot of people who battle severe depression have similar needs and emotional challenges and "stress" to a point where they become exhausted and even turn it all inward to self punishing thoughts of "unworthiness".

It takes time to work through whatever has contributed to your own emotional challenges and even feelings of "it must be my fault". And in all honesty, sometimes someone can be triggered backwards because of how other people actually "do" blame them and don't have the where with all to "consider" the emotions of the person who is struggling. It is amazing how so many people respond with "I think and make something all about themselves or their need to self protect", and how much they "fail" to allow another person to "feel" their emotions.

I actually talked about that today with my older sister tbh. I had a window of opportunity where I explained to her "why" her own daughter pushes her away sometimes. My sister's reaction immediately was all about whatever "she" felt she did and that her daughter was wrong. THAT IS NOT IMPORTANT, and people JUST DON'T GET THAT. I talked about the "dramas" I had to deal with this past weekend. I went to my parents and here "I" am with PTSD and yet I was the only one who just "allowed" others to vent their emotions instead of trying to tell them "not to feel in some way".
And then when I went to my father and asked "him" what happened, I just "listened" and my older sister kept needing to shake her head in disagreement and needed to make it worse and motioned into "catastrophizing".

My poor niece was clearly overwhelmed and just NEEDED TO VENT and not have anyone cut her off, talk over her and push her to the point where she did not get the chance to just "vent". Sometimes the best thing to do for another person is just shut up and allow the person to express their emotions what ever they need to "feel" and just comfort them. It doesn't mean it's up to you to "fix" them, often the best way to "help" another person is to "acknowledge" their emotions because it really is cathartic for a person if they can "just let it out" instead of "just dealing, just ignoring, just forgetting, just, just, just".

Mowtown, I have seen you gain so much because of how you have finally been "validated" the way you deserve, the way your own family still unfortunately denies you, however, you are finally recognizing that "yes" that was never "your fault". And quite frankly I have noticed that you have been able to actually be there for others, and you really do "acknowledge" them in very "healthy ways".

I feel that Jane needs to find her way to that too, but it's going to take time for her to be courageous and "let things out" and begin to slowly understand how much of whatever she has storred is "really not her fault". It really does take time and patience to get there though. This hardwired message so many of us receive that we are not supposed to "express our emotional challenges" is just plain "crap", we are simply not designed to be that way.

Thanks Johnny. And that was lovely how you responded to the young pt. You are right, more people need to be showing loving kindness towards others. Me included I am sure!

These stood out for me, I feel a need to respond, to explain myself somehow.

Yes, **** happened to me, pretty horrid ****.(I'm sorry, I swear a little when super stressed. Swearing is not such a big deal here in NZ as I understand it may be in the states, so excuse me if it offends anyone. I don't intend to). At the moment it did, each and every moment...... I let it happen. I guess I learnt very young to not fight back, not speak up...so I blame myself for that, but can see how maybe I could try to come to terms with it not fully being my fault.....but I am not there yet.

You mention coping in times of stress. I am actually pretty good at that when it involves situations not impacting me emotionally I guess. In my last role, just last year, I had a client arrive at the office with what appeared to be stab wounds and carrying what appeared to be a rifle. This client locked themselves in our bathroom. I managed to talk them into opening the door and convinced them to not take the various narcotics they had on them, at the same time trying to ascertain if it was in fact a firearm, and convince the client to allow me to call an ambulance. The client became overwhelmed and I had to co-ordinate my colleagues to call the police, liased with the armed offenders who came to minimise the harm to my client and to anyone else. It all ended fairly well. No one got hurt, the client did have a rifle with them and had been shot, not stabbed. I lost some of the trust my client had put in me, because I called the police, but that came back. I work well under pressure in these sorts of situations.

When I talk about the way I behaved after, I am not meaning just then. Or in the day or 2 after. I am talking about behaviours that developed that endured for periods of time....that I see as intensely shameful. These patterns have repeated at times of huge stress, and I can not stand myself for them. I can't even bring myself to write about them here, I sat here just now and tried to type the words of just one....but I can not. I wrote them and gave them to my T though. I hope, in time, to come to understand why I did these things, and find my way to forgiving myself and being able to go forward and be less affected by them.

Johnny, your intense fear of people finding out that you had been in a psych hospital, I think may be similar to how I feel. I have told one of these things to a couple of people in my past and have ended up being intensely humiliated and hurt each time. I hope to get past this.

ps. what does fubar mean?

It's ok, you don't have to share if it's too hard right now. Sometimes people "react" to stressful challenges in ways they wish they hadn't, but, it's really important to consider whatever lack of emotional outlet and support one had available too. Often the fight or flight response can seem irrational, but again, it all depends of whatever one sees as a way to either escape or try to fight back.

It's very important to keep in mind the access to getting help, and the maturity level at the time too. It's important to remember that what is "now" has a lot more maturity then faced with challenges in the past. Also, in the "now" you have an outcome too, that is never really there during a stressful event or trauma.

The most "important" thing to understand is whatever did take place, however you did react, was based on a lot more than you realized, your sense of self and self worth plus a lot of your history that led to your choices that stem from the way your childhood created your deep set opinions of yourself too. Also, often "shame" can be something a person "hides" and tried to make up for in other ways, often "alone" because they don't have someone that they feel they can go to for help without feeling whatever it is will just be worse for them. And that is really what you are showing when you are finally trying to talk about some things and are terrified your therapist will somehow judge you badly instead of "help" you.

It "does" take courage, it "is" scary too. However, you need to be brave and sort through it all, you definitely deserve to have that take place, even though you have so many emotions and fears about it. Remember though Jane, "everyone has skeletons" and have done things they are later ashamed of doing. Therapists hear so many things, I know my therapist has.

((Warm Hugs wrapping around you to comfort you and to encourage you to keep on trying and knowing you are really a good person)))
OE

((Jane)), thank you for putting this into words. What you feel is so similar to my situation, except that it's friends not a therapist I'm worried about. Reassurance, caring, kindness - all these things I long for but receive from very few.

I don't have anything particularly helpful to offer, but did want to say thanks.


Bluegrey

Jane, FUBAR is US military slang for "F-ed Up Beyond All Recovery" or sometimes "Repair". In other words, a hopeless situation.

Trust me, we swear like drunken sailors on leave here in the US, at least in the midwest/Great Lakes. It's the "Bible Belt" part of the country in the South where people are much more socially and politically conservative and religious that there is more of an inhibition to not only swearing/cursing in public, but things like public displays of affection. But even that changes as the culture becomes more homogenious due to media/communications, migration, etc.

I swear a lot now. Didn't always used to. It can seem kind of vulgar at times, appropriate/casual at others. If they don't like it, well, you know, **** them!

Now, on to something more serious "I need, need, need...." Like Bluegrey said, it's another commonality with those of us in the C-PTSD club. We all seem to have these unfulfilled needs - we didn't get what was needed in childhood, and it affected us in negative ways.

Notice, you didn't say "want" or "desire" - again, the words DO matter. Need - it's a requirement, a necessity, like oxygen or water. Now, if you simply "wanted" something, that would be one thing, and I could see maybe feeling it was inappropriate to "want" at times. I "want" a Mercedes. I "want" a million dollar house. I "want" the latest designer couture whatever. Would the person survive without those? Yes. Could a reasonable case be made that a person who obsesses about wanting some frivolous luxury item is maybe being inappropriate in some way - yes, IMHO.

But, how about "I need a car for transporation" or "I need a place to live" or "I need clothes to wear" - in our society, you DO need those things. I don't know about other places, the second two are absolutes here - it's kind of tough to survive outside in a wet, continental climate where winters can dip to -40 degrees Celsius with heavy snow and ice, and it's against the law to go around naked. Now, a car, where I live, is pretty much a necessity. Granted, this is Detroit, the Motor City, the capital of auto production, so over the years, our political leaders were influenced by the auto industry to promote private vehicle transporation, and our public transporatation is very rudimentary compared to most major urban centers. But, many places, it's "necessary" to have a car to realistically effectively function in that society, not just a want or whim or desire.

So, would you feel guilty or shamed or wrong if you said "I need clothes?" Of course not. So, why feel that way about needing basic human kindness. That's all it boils down to.

I worry about it, too. I am too clingy and needy to the people I have met on this journey, and at times I think I am so unworthy. Except I'm really not unworthy, and I hope that I can give as much, if not more, than I get out of these relationships. I just need love, friendship, and in my case a bit of the fathering I never got in real life. So, I try to meet guys with similar interests, who can give me just a bit of that.

In my head 'I need' is almost immediately linked with, "you're too needy" which means I am unlovable because of my 'needs'. Because my needs are wrong, too much, bad etc.

Right now, I told my son that I need a bit of quiet time, and almost immediately I feel guilty for having a need at he same time as he does....his is that he wants ALL of my attention almost ALL the time. After taking him to the library, playing soccer for ages and hanging out, I feel on the verge of boiling over with irritation, and I just 'need' quiet.

Eventhough I finally got him to understand(we have talked before about either of us needing time out) that Mummy can't play 100% of the time with him. I wish I did have the capability to give him my full attention more, but frankly right now my head is full of this intense pressure I feel fit to burst.....I don't have enough for him.

GUILT! Need = guilt(and therefore shame) for me in so many things that I do! This is going to take so much work!

I just feel so screwed up!

There is a tiny part of me that can see that I am worthy, that I do matter, that I am lovable and that part dearly wants the rest of me to see this........but it feels like there is a 10metre wall of brick reinforced with steel and barbed wire between these two parts. And on the wall movies play of all the hurt and pain I've experienced as a reminder.....DO NOT PASS, this way lies even more hurt and pain, is it really worth it? DO NOT PASS.

((Jane)),

What you are discribing is mostly the PTSD talking. It's important that tiny part that says you are worth it gets stronger. It will with time and patience.

Yes, what you are working through now is the hard part, getting it out and all into words, yes, it's hard work. People who don't know about PTSD truly cannot appreciate how much work it really is either. That is why "support" from people who do is so important.

Remember, the "Need = Guilt" is what you were told growing up, but, it is also a symtom of complex PTSD too. In fact a lot of people who struggle, including myself, has to distance from family who tend to reinforce the "Need = Guilt" in their comments.

As far as your son is concerned, you did spend time with him and all children want our attention all the time. Your teaching him about taking time outs is important, he will need to be able to request that himself at some point too. And he will also need to learn that "need doesn't have to mean guilt", he needs to understand not only his needs but the needs of others too.

((Hugs))
OE

Jane, I am sitting in the same place you were. My T asked me to write out the trauma in detail as I remember it.... I couldn't deal with reading it out loud or with seeing her read it so I gave it to her as I walked out the door.... Now I have to sit with this all week.

But truly I feel stupid and dumb for thinking this is traumatic... My T has worked with women who have been victims of some horrific criminal acts .... Terrible terrible stuff...

I just need to grow up and get over myself.... It was 35 years ago....

((Readytostop)), You just need to finally be able to talk about it and work through the surpressed feelings you have about it. It doesn't matter if someone else went through something worse, PTSD is PTSD and you have the right to grieve and be comforted by someone else who understands these needs and how to help someone struggling.

((Hugs))
OE

Hun you do not need to get over yourself. You deserve to have your pain heard and to heal from it. This stuff is hard!!

I think you are so strong to have written it out in detail. I never have yet...just made a list of the events. You are very brave!!



sent from mobile via tapatalk

Yes Jane, that's exactly right, thats the smart part of you that needs to grow and blossom. But for yourself too Jane, and you are right, that's hard because just like you when I share things I feel "guilty, like it's wrong and someone is going to tell me so too, yeah I know the feeling quite well.

I know Mowtown felt that way too, but since he has realized and been supported to feel better about himself here and there by people that have healthier senses of "emotional needs", he is blossoming and he is amazing at how supportive and caring he is, and it's so genuine and from the heart. And you know what that is? True emotional maturity, not this crap people hand out about "don't feel, don't share what you feel".

And Jane, but strenthing that part of you that tends to get shut out from getting stronger and developing emotional maturity to "feeling and sharing", you will make gains too, it's definitely there.