[BlueMoon6]

I have another topic Id like to bring up. This is embarrassing, but its all anonymous here, right?

I get together with my girlsfriends from time to time. Maybe once/week or even twice/week we get together for lunch and/or dinner. I love to chat, I love a small group with intimate conversation, but I also like a big group with the conversation split up. Sometimes it happens that there is one big conversation, and I enjoy that, too. I adore the friends I have made since moving to this area 2 yrs ago. When I get together with them, I plan my food so everything is safe and we go to safe (usually vegetarian)restaurants . The thing I would like to bring up in therapy (and here), but not sure how, is that I need a glass of wine to relax me. I feel more confident in myself once Ive relaxed and had some wine. I dont drink compulsively, but I definitely could if I were not so concerned with weight. So, drinking heavily is not what I would ever do. I have had drug issues in my much younger years, but its not a problem now.

Its as if I feel...not anxiety...or maybe it is some kind of social anxiety. I feel as if I am not good enough. My friends, who know me and seem to really like me. My fear is that they will see what a mentally ill (not that some of them arent themselves!), flawed, selfish, sick, unlikeable, stupid, unworthy, childhish, and all together awful person I am. I feel much more confident and relaxed about myself after a glass of wine. It probably comes down to, again, the way I feel about myself. That I have to dress up and look good, have some wine and then go play with my friends. Im not good enough as I am. I posted a while ago a list of the awful, deep feelings of self-hate I hold and the things I do, behaviors, that might not overtly look like self-hate, but I know they are.

So....I go on with life, being social and chatty, dressing up, heels and make-up, going out with my friends and even having fun, but with deep feelings of self-hatred driving much of how I behave. And, maybe, that is where the glass of wine comes it. It doesnt take much for me to feel relaxed with some wine because I eat so little, one glass will pretty much do it for me.

I will bring this up in therapy monday. I wrote about it in my journal. And its all connected, I guess, with the bigger picture of growing up in an abusive, invalidatiing environment. But where to go from here? Where and how does it end? How can I just feel its OK to me?

[zooropa]

Wow, Blue. It's amazing to me that you bring this up, today, because I was just discussing the idea and fact of self-hate with my best friend this morning (if one can "discuss" something via text, I think yes! lol!).
I was talking to her about some of the changes I've made, the deep, inner changes, that have led me down a path of choosing life & light instead of self-destruction which is the path I was on for a long time. Part of that, for me, was having to choose to live for ME, not living for my kids. I'll stay alive, now, because my kids need me, but I have to LIVE for ME.
But the dirty, icky underbelly of that is self-hate. Because I *want* to put my kids first. I don't WANT to be selfish. I don't want to live so much in my head that I can't be around other people. I have chosen to live, but it's living everyday, every moment, in the awareness of being someone and something I cannot stand, someone wholly unlovable, someone abandoned by everyone who ever got the chance.
Ok, wow. I certainly didn't answer any of your questions there, but those thoughts were in the forefront of my mind already.
I wish I thought I could share them with T. I wonder, how will you bring it up, blue? I just do not even know how to begin to mention it... (if you don't mind answering, of course! )

[skeksi]

I can really relate. I like to have a drink when I go out because it silences the nasty thoughts, you know, "You stupid cow, no one's listening to you/why are you bothering to talk/just shut up" voices in my head.

With T I have come to see that self-hate as a deep sense of shame which is a reaction to the abuse. That has helped me to be less attached to the feeling. I am working on saying, "I feel ashamed right now, and that's because the abuse taught me to see myself that way. But it's not true."

It's not a simple thing to do, and I do it imperfectly, but I'm working on it. I definitely hate myself less when I am able to think that way.

The hard part, for me, is that the idea of me being an awful person feels so true. It's really hard to trust that maybe that's not real.

[jexa]

My social anxiety makes it so I cannot go out with people. Cannot speak with a small group, can't make friends. The self-hate happens like you said here. The voice is so loud. Everything I say is wrong. I wish I could get over it because I need friends so bad. It makes me stutter and sometimes I start to tremble. People think I'm freezing. My jaw chatters. If I have to go to a party, I drink. Too much. I have to go to work parties sometimes and probably drink too much there, too. But I have such a hard time socializing.

I don't know how to get over it. It feels pretty hopeless to me. I'm just saying, I can relate.

[BeautifullyMistaken]

I feel self hatred all the time as well. I always feel like no matter what I do, it isn't good enough and that I always do something wrong. I want to be someone people enjoy being around, ya know? Just put on that smile and pretend there's not a care in the world. Not much of a drinker, however; I like to drink with friends on the weekends cause its a way of 'getting away' (plus I'm more chatty ).

I don't think having a glass of wine is a bad thing, but you also don't want it to be a clutch, something you need every time you are out with friends. Not sure how I can really help in any way, but keep us informed about how it goes on Monday.

[moonrise]

((((blue))))

I 'get by' in social situations like that by splitting off, and part of me can truly feel lovable and social. The other part deeper feels like crap, and like I'm such a faker.

I do a lot of self-talk, corny stuff, like "I *do* have friends. They like me enough to go have dinner. They may not see all of me, but what they do see, they like." And really, I do the wine thing, too. It does make it easier, doesn't it?

I think everyone, mentally ill or not, has self-hate going on in their head. Not to the extent that you do, perhaps, but it's still there. Enjoy going out, feeling pretty, and having fun. Try to ignore those little voices that tell you you don't deserve it, or you're not good enough, because you DO deserve to have friends and to go out. You DO deserve to be happy.

As for how long, I've found that the voices of self-hate have lessened over the years, especially as I 'achieve' things that I've wanted in life - degree, job, family, friends, even just making enough money to go out to eat when I wanted to was a huge deal for me, and helped me talk back to those horrid voices.

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

Its as if I feel...not anxiety...or maybe it is some kind of social anxiety. I feel as if I am not good enough. My friends, who know me and seem to really like me. My fear is that they will see what a mentally ill (not that some of them arent themselves!), flawed, selfish, sick, unlikeable, stupid, unworthy, childhish, and all together awful person I am.
...

So....I go on with life, being social and chatty, dressing up, heels and make-up, going out with my friends and even having fun, but with deep feelings of self-hatred driving much of how I behave. And, maybe, that is where the glass of wine comes it. It doesnt take much for me to feel relaxed with some wine because I eat so little, one glass will pretty much do it for me.

I will bring this up in therapy monday. I wrote about it in my journal. And its all connected, I guess, with the bigger picture of growing up in an abusive, invalidatiing environment. But where to go from here? Where and how does it end? How can I just feel its OK to me?

BlueMoon, I can really relate to what you wrote. Just today I was talking to my therapist about how I got badly triggered in my group therapy this week and how it made me realize how much I still hate myself. Like moonrise, I have a persona that functions in the world to make it seem like I am quite OK, even confident and happy. But I feel like a fake, and I know I am somehow worthless and fundamentally bad. And like you BlueMoon, I sometimes behave in ways that perpetuate the shame underlying the self-hate, as if it is so much a part of my identity that I have to keep it going in order to know who I am. It feels like in order to reverse this self-hatred I have to begin to live in a different universe entirely, not the world I grew up in. No wonder, I guess, that I get so scared. Sometimes it is just plain disorienting when I do get a glimpse of another way of feeling about myself. It also means acknowledging the wrongness of how I was treated, and that means feeling a lot of pain. I can be a big old chicken when it comes to that.

Given the way you describe your having a glass if wine when you go out, it seems almost like a kindness towards yourself, not something to feel embarrassed about. As if you have found a simple way to free yourself from the voices of the past so you can just have some fun with your friends. I think we all deserve that kind of time off.

As for how to feel like it is OK to be you, I can only say that I am still trying to get used to the idea that my therapist really just wants me to be me, and that it is safe to do so in her presence. I think the only way to change this is to be real a bit at a time with safe people and learn that, unlike when we were kids, there will be no dire consequences. Today my T pointed it out to me when I took a small risk with something I said, and had me stop and notice that nothing bad happened as a result. I guess it is paying attention to things like that that may eventually dissolve the self-hatred and shame about being who I really am. Like single drops of water melting a huge salt crystal...

Originally Posted by skeksi

With T I have come to see that self-hate as a deep sense of shame which is a reaction to the abuse. That has helped me to be less attached to the feeling. I am working on saying, "I feel ashamed right now, and that's because the abuse taught me to see myself that way. But it's not true."

It's not a simple thing to do, and I do it imperfectly, but I'm working on it. I definitely hate myself less when I am able to think that way.

The hard part, for me, is that the idea of me being an awful person feels so true. It's really hard to trust that maybe that's not real.

T and I just talked about this today. He said that's what he hates about neglect and abuse...the resulting shame which is the worst feeling imaginable. I don't know if he's ever even used the word "hate" before...but he said it a few times: "I HATE it"

I like what you said about not being attached to the feeling of self-hate, and recognizing it as shame GIVEN TO ME BY SOMEONE ELSE, skeski. I'm going to try to remember that.

In my message to T today, I said something about being afraid he won't like me, and about feeling like the least likable person in the world. And I realized, there aren't very many people I don't like. What would make ME so special that *I* am the least likable person on earth?! It's so egotistical in such a weird, backwards way.

We're all just human, you know?

Blue - I think that it's so hard for us to accept ourselves...but from the outside, I can tell you that it sounds REALLY normal to have a glass of wine to loosen up with friends. Sometimes I think I analyze and judge myself WAY too much. I bet we all tend to do that.

Lots and lots of to you, my extremely lovable friend

[BlueMoon6]

Wow. When I came home tonight, I wanted to go read the responses I got. I thought Id get bashed for having the wine and not being a good mother and going out with my friends! That is TRULY what I thought I would read when I came here! H put the little ones to bed and here I am, its after 11, and I had a good time. I really do not feel entitled to be happy and enjoy myself. I did have a good time, too.

Zoo- That is exactly what it is for me, too. Chosing life over self-destruction. That I have to live for ME. As much as I adore my children and for whatever reason that I cannot understand, they are not enough to make me want to live. I have to have a life that includes them. And, like you, I am so aware of the hateful feelings I have run and I numb out from. I will tell ftt by just starting the story, going out, feelings about being social. How I feel in conversation is a good place to begin. How I feel talking to her, too.

Skeksi- What is it about a glass of wine that silences those voices? It silences the shut-up, no one cares voices. I like this: "I feel ashamed right now, and that's because the abuse taught me to see myself that way. But it's not true."

I think I would feel less shame, too, if I saw it in that way. It would help me to take a step back, this is something I have been taught, but there is nothing shameful and *I* am not someone to be ashamed to be. That is how I feel. I am ashamed to be me. But There is nothing shameful about me. I have to tall myself that over and over. It doesnt stick well, but youre rithg, it FEELS so true. I AM actually telling myself "I love you" in the mirror (I think Rainbow's suggestion) and it almost feels like the love I give to my children I am giving to myself. It just doesnt sink it the way (I hope) it does for my kids.

Jexa- I know you have written here about your social anxiety before, but you would not know that to read the thoughtful, caring and VERY insightful things you have to say. Of course, its on the computer and easy, but to me, you are popular here (!) and well spoken, articulate, friendly, very intelligent, and relaxed with well thought-out posts. What is inside, behind the anxiety, feezing and chattering teeth, is a very likable, fun and comfortable person., Id be your RL friend in a heartbeat.

Even if you'd say, well, I dont know you in person, I think after reading a couple of hundred posts from someone, you get a good idea! You, Jexa would be a great friend and a really amazing, fun and interesting person to have dinner with. I wish I could invite you out with my friends! Im not sure how you would get over feeling anxiety when with people, is it self-hate? Or something else? What do YOU think it is?

BeautifullyMistaken- That IS exactly how I feel. No matter what I do it isnt good enough. Im not enough being me. I have to say or do the perfect right thing and I am NOT allowed to make mistakes.

Moon- Yup. I split, too. I can be social and chatty, and feel disgusting and unworthy, at the same time. And it depends on which "mood" is out at any given moment. I like the self-talk that you do, about correcting the beliefs you have. Thatg you ARE lovable and you DO have friends. And you are SO right. As I was posting the original post here, I was thinking, well, everyone has these voices and issues with self-esteem from time to time, and even more often. Maybe its a matter of degree? Or how much it affects the rest of your life. Or maybe, I am becoming so aware, which I would never call a bad thing, that I am not tolerating from myself self-hate even in a minor form, like needing a glass of wine to relax, or witnessing being uncomfortable with myself even though I know I am with people who genuinely like me.

Ripley- It is interesting that you picked up on the ways I (we) perpetuate the self-hate with small, even minor, subtle things I do. It perpetuates self-hate instead of growth toward self-acceptance and self-love. I think you are right, the only way is bit by little bit, in therapy with T and being accepted as we are, I never felt accepted as I was with dt, but I do with ftt. I am STILL trying to work through her reactions to me with ftt. That is what ftt does, she has me stop in certain situations and to notice that nothing bad has happened. I am still me.

Tree- I think that is the bottom line for me. There is nothing worse than the shame that I have somehow absorbed into my being. It permeates everything and feels like a wall. A wall that I am scratching at. It is the block in the way of every kind of with with ftt. But it is coming down. I am trying to recognize it for what is it, shame from abuse and that I did nothing wrong, that I was neglected and treated abusively, and I feel shame from that treatment. Then I can look hard to see that there is nothing to feel shamful about today. It is so hard to accept ourselves, without fear or shame.. I am who I am.

I did enjoy my glass of wine this evening with my friends, I am aware of uncomfortable moments I have, though I dont know why and Id like to talk about it with ftt. Why one conversation or topic make me feel less worthy than another. Or different interactiions with my friends cause different reactions in me, how I feel toward myself. These are really subtle and not obvious things, but I think they are iimportant and point to larger, deeper issues. I am not even sure which things to bring up on monday. Id have to think about which topic of conversation made me feel better or worse than another.

Well, anyway....I did have some fun

[Kiya]

I haven't read all the posts - but yours brings to mind the social environment we all live in. the images we all digest about what "is ok/isn't ok" what "is acceptable'. there's not a single person living in the technological age that is not affected by out society's standards; fashion, agism, beauty, etc etc... it is amazing that anyone can feel validated in our public environment and I doubt that there are lage percentages of women who do not feel that same self-hate. It eats at the Western world.
There's my 2 cents =)

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by treehouse

.....I realized, there aren't very many people I don't like. What would make ME so special that *I* am the least likable person on earth?! It's so egotistical in such a weird, backwards way.

I read this sort of thing last year and got really angry, saying that it was blaming the victim. but when you said this Treehouse, I remembered an old poem by James Thomson.... who knows, Tree, maybe you are on to something.

ONCE in a saintly passion
I cried with desperate grief,
"O Lord, my heart is black with guile,
Of sinners I am chief."
Then stooped my guardian angel
And whispered from behind,
"Vanity, my little man,
You're nothing of the kind."

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by skeksi

I am working on saying, "I feel ashamed right now, and that's because the abuse taught me to see myself that way. But it's not true."

Wow. That is good.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by ripley

I sometimes behave in ways that perpetuate the shame underlying the self-hate, as if it is so much a part of my identity that I have to keep it going in order to know who I am. It feels like in order to reverse this self-hatred I have to begin to live in a different universe entirely, not the world I grew up in. No wonder, I guess, that I get so scared. Sometimes it is just plain disorienting when I do get a glimpse of another way of feeling about myself. It also means acknowledging the wrongness of how I was treated, and that means feeling a lot of pain. I can be a big old chicken when it comes to that.

More of recognition.

[jexa]

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

Jexa- I know you have written here about your social anxiety before, but you would not know that to read the thoughtful, caring and VERY insightful things you have to say. Of course, its on the computer and easy, but to me, you are popular here (!) and well spoken, articulate, friendly, very intelligent, and relaxed with well thought-out posts. What is inside, behind the anxiety, feezing and chattering teeth, is a very likable, fun and comfortable person., Id be your RL friend in a heartbeat.

Even if you'd say, well, I dont know you in person, I think after reading a couple of hundred posts from someone, you get a good idea! You, Jexa would be a great friend and a really amazing, fun and interesting person to have dinner with. I wish I could invite you out with my friends! Im not sure how you would get over feeling anxiety when with people, is it self-hate? Or something else? What do YOU think it is?

Blue... thank you SO MUCH. I didn't mean to hijack your thread with my woes, I guess I sort of did that. But thank you so much - your post made my day. Popular? Me? I do feel much more comfortable on the internet. If I could just get comfortable with people, maybe I would be the same in person instead of awkward jexa.

It is definitely self-hate. The voice in my head screams that everything I'm doing is wrong: I have the wrong facial expression, I'm standing the wrong way, I'm saying the wrong things, I'm not engaging enough, I'm not smart enough.. etc. It actually says "you", not "I." "YOU'RE NOT SMART ENOUGH, YOU'RE NOT GOOD ENOUGH." What's weird is that I'm fine at work socializing but not outside of work. The voice is much quieter when I'm at work. I think it's because I feel confident at my job since my job is in mental health, and I feel "in my element" talking to people about their struggles.

My T and I are working on my social fears with exposures, like "go out to a bar," "ask a shoe store clerk a question," "make a comment to a person in the elevator," etc. This is supposed to make me feel better eventually, while making me face the scary things and just let people see me tremble. She had social phobia in the past (and still is shy) so she's sympathetic, but assures me this will help in the long term.. I'm scared.

Blue I can so relate to this!!! I definitely use alcohol to feel more at ease in social situations when I feel inferior to those I'm with - like they're more funny and more interesting and more attractive than I am, the alcohol helps me. I know it's a crutch. T has picked up on that, but we haven't truly hashed it out... yet.

I think my feelings of self-hate really came to light after T's and my most recent understanding, how strongly I reacted to the idea that T might think of me as fat, after she used that word in a flippant way of referring to me. That word has so much negativity connected to it for me, and it's full of self-hate! T and I went over, word for word, what comes up for me when I hear that word - ugly stuff, I tell ya. I hate the self-hate, if that makes sense, but it's there, and I have to deal with it. I do believe that it comes from shame, a whole bunch of dirty ugly nasty shame, that we all must work through in order to heal. It's painful, no doubt. But slowly, we will get through it.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by skeksi

The hard part, for me, is that the idea of me being an awful person feels so true. It's really hard to trust that maybe that's not real.

Skeksi, I really liked your post. What you wrote above ^ - the feelings are so true BUT they are a reaction to a past dysfunctional environment. What helped me to work through these sorts of things was understanding this very well (my specific situation, what I was feeling and why I was feeling it. IT was a reaction to specific situations in my upbringing.) With this thorough understanding you can unravel it.

Two things helped me with this type of stuff:

1) I came to the realization that no one around me is perfect. I had a lot of shame and this shame makes you want to be perfect, perfect to the point that isn't realistic. I started noticing that others aren't perfect and they don't feel bad about it. They stutter, they drop things, they trip, all sorts of things and for them it isn't a big deal. When I started acting like this a huge burden was lifted from me. Being real includes not being embarrassed about imperfections.........

2) I worked on my issues right in the moment (at a later date, after some unloading therapy - BlueMoon, it sounds like a great idea to notice what triggered you and then discuss this stuff with your therapist!). For me, I noticed my self worth dropping while in conversation with other women at parties (it never dropped with men. My dad wasn't ever a problem for me, my mom was). So what I did was when I would notice this happening I would tell myself "This woman isn't your mom. Your mom isn't here. This woman thinks nothing bad about you." This really worked for me. I was able to replace those ingrained reactions with new, healthy thoughts.

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by Kiya

I haven't read all the posts - but yours brings to mind the social environment we all live in. the images we all digest about what "is ok/isn't ok" what "is acceptable'. there's not a single person living in the technological age that is not affected by out society's standards; fashion, agism, beauty, etc etc... it is amazing that anyone can feel validated in our public environment and I doubt that there are lage percentages of women who do not feel that same self-hate. It eats at the Western world.
There's my 2 cents =)

I agree, Kiya. I have been affected in various ways by the culture. Its where we live and how we grow up, yet there are a lot of women who are better able to transcend these things than others. They can confidently (more or less) be themselves and feel peaceful about who they are reagrdless of the pressures around us all. I do feel like I can be one of those women. I have always marched to my own drum, yet, there are attitudes that are SO ingrained in me that the self-hate I have for myself points to these attitudes, the cultural ones, and says, "See, you dont measure up, you cant do it, everyone else does, but do you DONT!" If only there wasnt so much self-hate and more self-love, I think my attachement to some of these attitudes would fade.

Did I make any sense? Or do only I understand what I mean?

[BlueMoon6]

Jexa- You DID NOT hijack my thread! LOL! I so appreciate your response to me and I relate to everything you are saying. Some to a lesser degree, but it is there. I know that self-hate. Its as if we have to talk ourselves out of it at the most crucial moments. And it isnt as if (for me) they are formed words in my mind, its a feeling, a feeling of being unable and not goo enough to do or say this or that. What I have found has helped is doing exactly what your T said to do. Try everything and anything out and show yourself, see, I can do it, they do like me and it may progress into...Im fun to be around.

Even that the self-hate is quieter when you are in your working environment where you know what to say and do in most instances shows me that you CAN feel confident and less self-hate with more practice in social situation....RL situations. As I said before, you are insightful, funny and popular (!) here! Just because we cant see your face behind that screen doesn mean you arent fun and interesting to be around.

And....I think you found the perfect T since she has gotten to the other side of this kind of struggle as well.

My 13 yo daughter used to be very, very shy. I assume it was a confidence thing, but she was like that from birth. A shy baby who didnt want too much stimulation or people looking at her. In school (Elemantary) she was well liked, very well liked, but could only have 1 or 2 close friends. It was enough for her. She seemed not to know what to say or do in larger groups and seemed over whelmed. She gained more confidence as she got older and was thrown into more social situations than she would have put herself in. It wasnt easy for her then, but now she has a gorup of friends, and, of course, a best friend, and she has the confidence to get close to a number of kids in her class. I think without the practice she has had over the years, proving to herself that she was able, she would not be where she is today. She may be young, but I think it applies to us adults too! She had to freedom to learn and practice at her own pace, there was some pressure there, but if she could do it, I know you and I could, too

[BlueMoon6]

Dream- I am so in awe of your exchanges with T about the word fat and her remarks, especially that they were flippant. I am so in awe of how well you and T went back and forth about it that I am going to bring it up with ftt. There is so much power in that word for me, too, and there are other trigger words for me that bring up powerful feelings of self-hatred, unworthiness and deep, deep shame. More powerful that I can express in words.

I think there are attitudes about the word and fatness that scare me to the point where I wouldnt want to get out of bed. What struck me, too, was that after journaling and feeling these things, you went to work! Put something on your eyes to make them less puffy and went on with your day! I admire that, those kinds of feelings knock me out. I cant move and I cant go on. You have strength and fortitude (corney, but true!).

It may not seem to be related to the alcohol thing, but it is. One the one hand, there is nothing wrong with going out for a drink with friends, having dinner and a glass of wine to relax. Its nice, its fun, it helps me get out of mommy-mode for an evening and into a more fun mode. BUT, I know there is something more behind it, I know that there are deeper issues all related to what I just wrote above that makes the wine "helpful" to me, helps me forget the way I "really" feel about myself, my social self and my alone self.

I think recognizing these things is a big part of the battle. I had not realized how self-hate driven I have been.

[BlueMoon6]

Sorry for the mulitple posts here!

Originally Posted by Sannah

2) I worked on my issues right in the moment (at a later date, after some unloading therapy - BlueMoon, it sounds like a great idea to notice what triggered you and then discuss this stuff with your therapist!). For me, I noticed my self worth dropping while in conversation with other women at parties (it never dropped with men. My dad wasn't ever a problem for me, my mom was). So what I did was when I would notice this happening I would tell myself "This woman isn't your mom. Your mom isn't here. This woman thinks nothing bad about you." This really worked for me. I was able to replace those ingrained reactions with new, healthy thoughts.

Hmmm....interesting. I also feel less worthy with women than men, but I SOOOO did not think of them as my mother. I have been acting out of the messages given to me by my mother/father, but I dont think that I see the other women as my mother. But, maybe I do. I'll have to give that some thought.........

[skeksi]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Wow. That is good.

And I wish I could take credit for it, but it's just what T has been trying to hammer into my head for years now. It's beginning to crack through.

Originally Posted by treehouse

T and I just talked about this today. He said that's what he hates about neglect and abuse...the resulting shame which is the worst feeling imaginable.

Yes! That's it. It's the worst feeling. Being scared it hard, and being mad is hard, but feeling that I am defective and unlovable? The worst.

[FooZe]

Originally Posted by skeksi

... it's just what T has been trying to hammer into my head for years now. It's beginning to crack through.

Any chance you might be... letting it in?

---

[Kiya]

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

I agree, Kiya. I have been affected in various ways by the culture. Its where we live and how we grow up, yet there are a lot of women who are better able to transcend these things than others. They can confidently (more or less) be themselves and feel peaceful about who they are reagrdless of the pressures around us all. I do feel like I can be one of those women. I have always marched to my own drum, yet, there are attitudes that are SO ingrained in me that the self-hate I have for myself points to these attitudes, the cultural ones, and says, "See, you dont measure up, you cant do it, everyone else does, but do you DONT!" If only there wasnt so much self-hate and more self-love, I think my attachement to some of these attitudes would fade.

Did I make any sense? Or do only I understand what I mean?

Heh - i wasn't even sure *I* made sense. I think i was trying to refer to your concern that everyone would bash you, and to say 'nope - most of us totally *get* it, you are not alone. =)
Yeah there are some ppl who just seem to float through it all and shine. I always wonder how. I'd like to be one of those women, but when around them, i actually feel worse about myself and not worthy enough to be near them to learn
((((((((((((((Bluey)))))))))))))))))

[deliquesce]

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

Hmmm....interesting. I also feel less worthy with women than men, but I SOOOO did not think of them as my mother. I have been acting out of the messages given to me by my mother/father, but I dont think that I see the other women as my mother. But, maybe I do. I'll have to give that some thought.........

it doesn't have to be that strong... for me it's a more "woman" vs "man" thing. it's how we learn to divide up the world as kids, and of course our parents are the ones we usually learn the most from.

i find this discussion interesting, since i don't drink. i actually feel like more of an a*s when i drink because i don't have the level of control that i usually do (nb: i'm the world's cheapest drunk. i'm tipsy at 1/2 glass, buzzed for hours afterwards on one). so i tend to avoid it unless i really know the people that i'm with, because they will know it's not my "usual self". not that my 1-glass self is bad or anything, but just... i don't like being that person? i know lots more people like me when i'm a bit tipsy, because i tend to become belle of the ball, but it's like putting on a facade and i don't like acting that way.

control is so important to me so i find it interesting that so many people want to let go of that. i enjoy wine for the taste, but i think the last time i had anything more than 1/2 a glass would have been when i was 21 or 22. i'll be travelling with friends over xmas/ny and i know we will drink quite a bit then, but i've also known them both since i was 12, so i know it'll be ok.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

Did I make any sense? Or do only I understand what I mean?

Perfect sense to me.