Ack

I really think I am manufacturing a rupture with T. T, on the other hand, who is so so so so willing to see "good" in all of my behaviors and motives, thinks I am trying to make sure I am really, truly safe and cared for since we are getting into such hard stuff.

We were talking about his injury today and the feelings and fears it brought up for me. It was really a fine session, I was able to be really honest and it felt connected and real. But, I don't know, something was pushing at me. We started talking about THE ATTACHMENT, and T pointed out that while we talk "in" the attachment (talk about the fact I love him, he cares about me, we're attached, etc) we don't talk ABOUT the attachment. I told him that I think about it a lot, I just don't talk about it in session.

THAT, of course, led to a big talk about the attachment, about the inherent imbalance in the relationship, etc. And that led to me feeling like I am just 1/28 of T's "work" and basically a big nobody who doesn't matter to anyone and who never has and who never will

Then it was like: "ok! Time's up!". Actually, we went over by 5 minutes and just had to stop. Blah.

I know that a lot of the problem is that growing up, people who said they loved me would hurt me, badly, and I am JUST understanding for the first time...they DID NOT LOVE ME. It wasn't that they loved me so much that they got carried away. It was that they never loved me in the first place. I was just a means to an end. I was just the easiest person around to fool. I was the stupidest person they could find.

SO, how can I believe T when he says he loves me? I don't.

I don't know if I am pulling back, manufacturing a rupture, or just confused.

[Mike_J]

Does it have to be one thing, can you be pulling back and manufacturing a rupture and being confused at the same time. Hey I'm confused all the time. Every therapist/paitent relationship has an imballance. I only have one therapist (like most people), and she has many paients (like all therapists) so what is a uniquie relationship for me is just one of many for her. But when she sees me as one of many paitents, I'm sure she sees all of her paitents as uniquie people and has uniquie feelings for each of us. I would guess that is the same situation for your therapist and how he feels about you.
I actually worry about my therapist, having to carry around all of the cr@p that I tell her, feeling at least to an extent that she is responsiblie for making me better.
I really hope she doesn't worry about me though I can't help but worry about her.
And a child growing up isn't "stupid" they are trusting and need love, all childeren do, and those who don't get it well we have problems but the lack of love in our early lives are NO WAY our fault.

[sittingatwatersedge]

((((((((((((((((((( tree )))))))))))))))))))

I have told T, "I realize I am just one hour out of every 3-4 weeks of your life. If I failed to come back, it wouldn't make any difference to you, not really" (read: not the same as the difference it would make to me if SHE simply didn't come back). She looked at me with such sadness, and said, "you don't think much of yourself do you?" (of course I don;t) but neither did she contradict what I said.
I am literally 0.0015 of her life.

Dear Tree, needing to manufacture a rupture and needing to prove that you're really really safe with T are two sides of the same coin. The trauma person tests and tests and tests, because trauma shatters the concept of safety that is essential to living in the world. Much of the healing process consists in the person coming to a new understanding of relative safety. Not that there are no threats out there, but that not everyone is a threat. This is what I get from Judith Herman and James Chu, anyway.
I am so sorry for the way little Treehouse was treated.

It is scary to realize what a small part of their lives we are and what a large, huge part of our lives THEY are.

[Melbadaze]

I think a therapist loving a client isn't perhaps the best way to express feelings. T doesn't love me, nor do I expect her too, but she says things like I am easty to be with, a pleasure to work with. These for me are more tangable and less complicated.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

I have told T, "I realize I am just one hour out of every 3-4 weeks of your life...
I am literally 0.0015 of her life.

Depends on how you count. Let's see, is your one hour the same as an hour (50 minutes?) that she spends in the bathroom taking a bubble bath (or whatever she does in there), or sleeping, or making dinner, or...

Maybe "quality time" she spends with you counts more than the time she spends grocery shopping? Who knows? Maybe if you add it up you count for, well, let's say, 0.015 of her life? That's ten times what you gave yourself credit for...

Before I left we did try to figure out what I CAN believe is true. I can believe that I'm safe there. At least physically.

So, we've gone 574895743059827984257203 steps backwards and are at "I'm safe". "I'm safe" and "the perp was a ****ing asshole" (but only 1/10 of a time).

Originally Posted by treehouse

Before I left we did try to figure out what I CAN believe is true. I can believe that I'm safe there. At least physically.

So, we've gone 574895743059827984257203 steps backwards and are at "I'm safe". "I'm safe" and "the perp was a ****ing asshole" (but only 1/10 of a time).

That's great. Why the frown face? That doesn't seem like a step backwards at all. Safety speaks volumes about your relationship with t. Would you feel safe with someone who didn't care for you?

I really relate to how heart-wrenching this attachment thing, and the imbalance of the t relationship are.

I also relate to feeling like in the manner of one single session, we take this gigantic leap BACKWARD. It's so frustrating. Like "really??! are we dealing with basic trust... again???!"

One thing that is comforting to me is that my t says I can ask her every single day if she truly cares about me, if I'm a burden, etc. And she doesn't mind reassuring me over and over.

I'm sure your t does not think of you as just another client, but sees you for all your unique qualities and connections.

Originally Posted by farmergirl

That's great. Why the frown face? That doesn't seem like a step backwards at all. Safety speaks volumes about your relationship with t. Would you feel safe with someone who didn't care for you?

I guess because after over 2 years of twice-a-week sessions, I thought I had FINALLY moved beyond just being safe. So, it feels like a step backwards. I know it's good that I do feel safe, and I didn't move all the way back past that. But still.

[googley]

((((((((Tree)))))))

I'm so sorry that you are feeling bad right now. I know that it is so hard to trust that they are there when we can't see them. We don't know how much they think about us out of session (Oh, what is Tree doing right now?), but we do know how much we think about them when we are outside of session. My guess (if you are like me at all) it is a lot. For me it is a lot even if it I'm not replaying parts of session and thinking about next session. I've had this discussion with my T before (and in clinical psychology classes). The relationship between each T and each client is different. Just as the relationship between each parent and each child is different. That does not mean that any client is less important than another. While Ts don't take us home at night, that doesn't mean that they don't care about us and how we are doing. They give us their full attention (or they should) during the time we are there. While it is only a small portion of the week, it does not make it less important than their other clients. And while it is their work, I do not think any good T could do the job they do without putting their whole heart into it. If they didn't they would burn out. They must care about their clients.

I'm not surprised that you are having to go back and work on trust. T being hurt this week can really shake you up. It can stir up questions about dependability, (can I trust T to be there when he says he will), his mortality (what would have happened if his accident had been worse), aloneness (what would I have done if I had really really needed T this week and he wasn't able to help because he had to take care of himself?) All these things are scary to think about.

There was all that on top of you two working on harder stuff. I would definitely want to know I was safe and working with someone who cared about me before getting into deeper stuff. (Which is part of my problem right now with T, I think.) Opening up new stuff is sooooooo hard. It makes us vulnerable again and brings up scary feelings and just seems overwhelming. With all this going on I don't think T is surprised that you return to talking about trust. I've seen two Ts for three years each and we never stopped talking about trust. When we needed to, we would come back to it. It was not a one time thing that was then finished forever.

We would all love this stuff to be lots of steps forward and no steps back, but we all know that is a dream. If it were true then T would go like a snap. Don't be hard on yourself that it seems like you are going one step (or many steps) back. T will go where you need to go to feel safe.

Please take care of yourself. Call T and ask him to leave you a message if you need to.

[WePow]

Tree - keep on being honest with T about what you are experiencing. It makes sense that you feel the way you do after all you have been through. Keep on expressing and reaching out. T may have others they help out, but I honestly do believe each one matters in the heart of the T. The heart is big enough to love many all at the same time. Your T sounds like he has a huge heart that is just filled with tons of love. I don't think he is going to run short on love any time soon. So when you get your hour with your T, I think you will see his heart is in truth filled with honest compassion for who you are.

[kitten16]

Your scientific calculation caught my eye, Sitting! It's sobering to think of it that way.

This thing is, though -- therapists are sort of like teachers. They have a lot of students, sure, but because they're human they end up becoming more invested in some of them than others. I know it's delusional to start thinking stuff like: I just know I'm my T's favorite client, or whatever (and I've been guilty of that), but the truth is somewhere in the middle.

My T once told me that he thought about me more than I knew. It made me feel good!

Anyway, I don't think that we're tiny in our therapists' lives. What they're doing with and for us is so important. We are their work. And they do respond to us. We haunt their dreams just like they do ours. (As in the play Equus by Peter Schaffer...)

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

((((((((((((((((((( tree )))))))))))))))))))

I have told T, "I realize I am just one hour out of every 3-4 weeks of your life. If I failed to come back, it wouldn't make any difference to you, not really" (read: not the same as the difference it would make to me if SHE simply didn't come back). She looked at me with such sadness, and said, "you don't think much of yourself do you?" (of course I don;t) but neither did she contradict what I said.
I am literally 0.0015 of her life.

Dear Tree, needing to manufacture a rupture and needing to prove that you're really really safe with T are two sides of the same coin. The trauma person tests and tests and tests, because trauma shatters the concept of safety that is essential to living in the world. Much of the healing process consists in the person coming to a new understanding of relative safety. Not that there are no threats out there, but that not everyone is a threat. This is what I get from Judith Herman and James Chu, anyway.
I am so sorry for the way little Treehouse was treated.

hmmm...perhaps this will add some perspective? I have been seeing my current T about once a week, for about two years, minus a longish interruption, and I am just beginning to feel safe...and I am fairly sure there are still going to be times when I forget that feeling too...I think it is important to notice what it is that causes our sense of things in therapy to change. That is something we can work with. I think it may even be normal in any relationship for there to be this sort of to and fro motion??

[MissCharlotte]

(Tree)

I think the issue of safety is one that continually gets shoved to the forefront of all of our relationships. The idea of complex ptsd is so convoluted because of the tangled nature of our traumatic experience and how we had to continually change ourselves in order to cope. Remember how long it took to feel safe at all in T? I know for me it literally took years. And when you finally decided it was safe, there would be a session when you realized that the safety concept was like jello and subject to dissolution. So, I think everything else in T (and all other relationships) is the same. We feel safe, held, loved, cared for until something --often something so tiny we don't even notice it happening -- triggers us and we don't feel the same wholeness we felt a moment ago. But that doesn't mean it's not there or that you are manufacturing something. It just means that a part of you hurts and needs some nurturing. It's so confusing when children have to grapple with adult concepts; that is why the idea of love is so confusing for you. But like everything else, it's not black and white. No one is everything to anyone; and the T relationship is SO imbalanced that we rebel against it at every opportunity to protect ourselves from being hurt. But I bet you are important to T. Think of it this way. Of your three kids, which one do you love the most? Horrible question, right? Of course you don't love any one of them more than the other; but at the same time you love them each in different ways because they are all unique in their own right. Nevertheless each of them loves you in a different way altogether. Ach, it's so hard.

Take care of you Tree.

[Kiya]

I remember, i had a T long years ago, who told me she loved me - i was SO MAD at her. i hated her for it. to love me when only ppl who loved me hurt me. to say something to me i could never say back. She had know idea the knife that stuck in me (or the SI that came from that). Like Sunrise said, that is such a complicated idea.
Tree, maybe you are simply growing and pushing the envelope on your own self?
hugs!

[SpottedOwl]

((((treehouse)))))

I know that a lot of the problem is that growing up, people who said they loved me would hurt me, badly, and I am JUST understanding for the first time...they DID NOT LOVE ME. It wasn't that they loved me so much that they got carried away. It was that they never loved me in the first place. I was just a means to an end. I was just the easiest person around to fool. I was the stupidest person they could find.

SO, how can I believe T when he says he loves me? I don't.

I know you know what love feels like.
Love is in the actions, love feels good and safe and warm in our bodies.
Pause, and think for just a moment how you feel about your children and how you love them and they love you. Or the love of an animal, or your higher power. Try to notice how this feels in your body. Just 'bathe' in the feeling of love.

One thing that helped me, was to recognize that 'evil' (for lack of a better word) leaves me with the feeling of confusion. When I start to feel all conflicted and confused, I know it is time to stop and think. Love will never cause confusion. Love does not try to trick you. Love does not guilt you.

Trust yourself, tree. You are a wise and wonderful woman, and deep down you know.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by treeehouse

SO, how can I believe T when he says he loves me? I don't.

Maybe let his actions speak louder than the words, which you have trouble accepting. From time to time I seek "evidence" that my parents loved me. I go over situations from my childhood, looking for shreds of actions that must "prove" they loved me. I try to compile this evidence into a heap in the hopes that the shreds will all add up to a significant mound and then I will have the evidence I need. I'm not saying this is a healthy thing to engage in, LOL, but from what you have written here on PC over the time you have been in therapy, you have so much "evidence" that he loves and cares deeply about you. Oodles of evidence. So maybe you can rely on all that evidence instead of what your T "says" directly to you, from time to time, about his love. Maybe his words themselves need not be that important since you have your mountains of evidence.

Originally Posted by treehouse

We started talking about THE ATTACHMENT, and T pointed out that while we talk "in" the attachment (talk about the fact I love him, he cares about me, we're attached, etc) we don't talk ABOUT the attachment. I told him that I think about it a lot, I just don't talk about it in session.

This is off your main topic a bit, treehouse, but could you explain more about talking "in" the attachment vs. talking "about" the attachment? Do you mean that when you talk "in" the attachment, you are being close and connected and having reciprocal interchanges and really "getting" each other, but yet you are not talking about how connected you are, how you care about each other, etc.? And then talking "about" the attachment would be talking overtly about your connection, caring, love, etc.? It's like talking "in" is more like engaging and being, whereas talking "about" is more direct and "meta", i.e. let's talk about we're both experiencing here in therapy with each other rather than just experiencing it?

If this is the distinction you mean, then I think I experience that too. I think my T and I talk more "in" our attachment than "about." It is a joy to dance with him and experience that, but we don't always say "that dance was great because of X, Y, and Z." But sometimes we do. It can be hard for me to handle when he says really nice things to me very directly. I do better when we are illuminated together in soft, reflected light rather than when he shines the bright light right on me (I get kind of blinded). When he is really direct like this, I try my hardest to sit there and take it, and not immediately try to deflect the light by minimizing his words or changing the subject. It is really hard to sit there and take it!

Originally Posted by sunrise

This is off your main topic a bit, treehouse, but could you explain more about talking "in" the attachment vs. talking "about" the attachment?

What he meant is that we DO talk about the fact that we care about each other, I am very open about the fact that I am very attached, etc. But we don't talk about sort of the...scientific? (can't think of the right word) side of attachment. WHY we attach, what feels good about being attached, what feels bad about being attached, etc.

I know what you mean about how difficult it is to listen to T say nice things. It IS hard to tolerate. I dissociate and can't pay attention.

T left a message for me last night and he sounded so sad. He let out a big heavy sigh and said that he was struck by how sad I was when I talked about being scared that I am not lovable. Hearing him feeling so honestly sad about my sadness made me feel cared for more than any words he could say. It's times like that when I really can feel and understand that T really does care about me.

[ECHOES]

I really like your insight into the possibility of manufacturing ruptures and what results. Thanks for sharing that!!

[BlueMoon6]

((((Tree)))) Im sorry IK am just catching up now. After reading through the responses I agree that feeling safe there isnt a step backwards at all. For one, I think there are often different levels of feeling safe. You felt safe probably when you were with T 6 months. But there is a different level of safety you feel with him now. And Maybe during stressful,m difficult issues, its enough to feel that deep safety you feel with him and with no one else. You have moved beyond just feeling safe. You have established a relationship with him unlike any other. But while bringing up just the things that SAWE said, trauma that makes everyone unsafe, everyone not believable, leaning back comfortably on feeling safe is not a bad thing at all. You are so incredibly fortunate to have reached such a level of safety with him.

So, in a way, it IS moving forward. You have the progress you have made, nothing can take that away, yet you have this soft, comfortable pillow to lean back on when you are shaky and uncomfortable. Im very proud of you

[FooZe]

Originally Posted by treehouse

... T pointed out that while we talk "in" the attachment (talk about the fact I love him, he cares about me, we're attached, etc) we don't talk ABOUT the attachment. I told him that I think about it a lot, I just don't talk about it in session.

It sounds to me like one more of those things you aren't going to have a whole lot to say about till you've mostly moved on to some other space and are looking back on the one you used to be in. I've heard it compared to a fish trying to talk about water. The same way, it's pretty hard to talk about what it's like to be me because I've never been anyone else.

... a lot of the problem is that growing up, people who said they loved me would hurt me, badly, and I am JUST understanding for the first time...they DID NOT LOVE ME. It wasn't that they loved me so much that they got carried away. It was that they never loved me in the first place. I was just a means to an end. I was just the easiest person around to fool. I was the stupidest person they could find.

The way I'm picturing it is that by "loving" you, what they meant was they needed you for purposes of their own that had little to do with your happiness or well-being (and probably not much with theirs, either).

Originally Posted by treehouse

I guess because ... I thought I had FINALLY moved beyond just being safe. So, it feels like a step backwards. I know it's good that I do feel safe, and I didn't move all the way back past that. But still.

I picture progress as something like the tide coming in (for anyone who's never lived near the ocean, I'm afraid this may be lost on you ). For a while, each wave will come up a little higher than the last one. Then, just as you think you've got the pattern figured out, several in a row will fall short and you'll wonder if the tide is even coming in any more. Then, as you stand there pondering where the waves went, along comes another one that'll fill your shoes if you're not careful.

As for "manufacturing a rupture" -- could that be your way of asking your T to show you how he handles some kinds of situations (ones that feel like impending ruptures!) that you, perhaps, would expect to have difficulty with?

[quote=sunrise;1302964]Maybe let his actions speak louder than the words, which you have trouble accepting. From time to time I seek "evidence" that my parents loved me. I go over situations from my childhood, looking for shreds of actions that must "prove" they loved me. I try to compile this evidence into a heap in the hopes that the shreds will all add up to a significant mound and then I will have the evidence I need. I'm not saying this is a healthy thing to engage in, LOL, but from what you have written here on PC over the time you have been in therapy, you have so much "evidence" that he loves and cares deeply about you. Oodles of evidence. So maybe you can rely on all that evidence instead of what your T "says" directly to you, from time to time, about his love. Maybe his words themselves need not be that important since you have your mountains of evidence.

This is off your main topic a bit, treehouse, but could you explain more about talking "in" the attachment vs. talking "about" the attachment? Do you mean that when you talk "in" the attachment, you are being close and connected and having reciprocal interchanges and really "getting" each other, but yet you are not talking about how connected you are, how you care about each other, etc.? And then talking "about" the attachment would be talking overtly about your connection, caring, love, etc.? It's like talking "in" is more like engaging and being, whereas talking "about" is more direct and "meta", i.e. let's talk about we're both experiencing here in therapy with each other rather than just experiencing it?

It can be hard for me to handle when he says really nice things to me very directly. I do better when we are illuminated together in soft, reflected light rather than when he shines the bright light right on me (I get kind of blinded). When he is really direct like this, I try my hardest to sit there and take it, and not immediately try to deflect the light by minimizing his words or changing the subject. It is really hard to sit there and take it!

sorry, not real versed in doing the quotes, and off the subject tree, but "how do you take it?" When t says really nice things to me i often sit and wonder "how can you just f**king sit there and lie to my face, and this is after 10 years with the same person...but a little tiny piece of me wants to believe what he says so much, but don't want the pain if he is just lying

Originally Posted by jbmomg

"how do you take it?" When t says really nice things to me i often sit and wonder "how can you just f**king sit there and lie to my face, and this is after 10 years with the same person...but a little tiny piece of me wants to believe what he says so much, but don't want the pain if he is just lying

You know, I really believe that my T wouldn't lie to me. He has shown me before that he will be honest about things that are difficult, and he has gently refused to say things that I have asked him to say that he doesn't agree with (mostly things about little Tree and the CSA).

But, oh my gosh, it is SO HARD to sit there and take it when he says kind things. It's hard to open up and let them in...honestly, if I can just stay there and not dissociate it feels like a success.

((((((((((jbmomg))))))))) I bet after 10 years of working together, your T wouldn't lie to you.

T and I have been working on this "10%" thing. I try to believe the new thoughts 10% of the time and just allow myself to hold the old thoughts for the other 90%. It's less overwhelming for me and less likely to send me into a tailspin. The idea is that once I get used to 10%, I'll be able to try 20%, and then 30% and so on. I wonder if you could believe what your T says is true just 10% of the time? What if you really let yourself OWN the kind things he says 1 out of every 10 times he says something?

[zooropa]

Originally Posted by treehouse

You know, I really believe that my T wouldn't lie to me. He has shown me before that he will be honest about things that are difficult, and he has gently refused to say things that I have asked him to say that he doesn't agree with (mostly things about little Tree and the CSA).

But, oh my gosh, it is SO HARD to sit there and take it when he says kind things. It's hard to open up and let them in...honestly, if I can just stay there and not dissociate it feels like a success.

thanks for saying that about feeling your T is honest with you, Tree. I really needed to read that and be reminded of what my T said a couple weeks ago to me about how she will let me know if I do something "wrong" (my word, not hers, I have issues of feeling like I'm doing therapy wrong or that she's going to abandon me, etc) and that I should trust her to always do that, so if she hasn't SAID she's angry/irritated/just DONE with me then that's not the case. I have been worrying about that all day, now I feel a little bit easier about it.

Also, I know how hard it is to accept kindness from T, especially when we are in there talking about trauma/whatever and are so engulfed in shame and just a feeling of "badness". I think you SHOULD feel that's a success when you can sit and let those words in and not dissociate, Tree! It IS a success!