Well, I am bringing up the same topic I have talked about many times before. Trying to make sure that my therapist is a 'real' person. I need to know that she is a real person beyond her role as my therapist. I want to see her at the gym. I want to run into her at the grocery store. I would like to see her eating out with her family at some restaurant. Anything to show me that she is a real person with a real life.

I want her to show me pictures of the kids and the things they do at the horse shows. I want to see pics of their vacations. I want to see pics of her home. Basically, I want to know all about her life outside of being my therapist.

Why do I want that so much? Why does that even matter one bit? I don't know why, but it does. I need to see these things. I don't understand why I have this need, but I do.

Would it hurt for her to open up her facebook pics and just show me a little bit of her life? That can't hurt that much can it? I have shown her mine. Shown her lots of pictures. Why can't I see a few of hers?

[anilam]

I sometimes thought about how come that some of us need/want that, some don't care and some (me included) even fear to meet their T in RL. Would surely be interested to read others take on that.

However, regarding your case- the only Q that come to my mind is: does your T share anything from her personal life with you? Personally I'm quite bothered by the "tabula rasa" approach of some T's. I think it can help the client to know stg about their T. I think even I would become obsessed with my T if he didn't tell me anything about himself. We (meaning I) do some small talk in the beginning of the session or when things get tough.
Anyway, just a thought.

[WikidPissah]

(((squiggles))) I am sorry this is causing you pain. I have to admit that I don't understand this kind of thing at all. But I don't think it's a "need" , I think it's more of a "want" or "desire". Surely you won't physically or spiritually die if you don't see T's private life.

As a human being, your T is entitled to a private life, I know you know that. Even if it wasn't a T relationship, if perhaps you were friends, she would still be entitled to keep things private. Even the closest relationships (H & W) (Parent & Child) have private things that they don't share. I would never read H's email, or check his voicemail. I would never read my child's diary. We all have an right to privacy, as a matter of fact I would consider privacy to be a need. Without it we would suffocate spiritually.

Hope this doesn't sound judgmental...it isn't meant to be. I am just trying to point out T's side of this.

[Perna]

I think it is a not being sure of one's self so wanting to borrow another's sort of thing. I use to look my T up in the phone book. . . to make sure we both existed. Since we can't relate to ourselves or others very well yet we organize our and their things, facts of life, like we use to paper dolls/doll houses.

[2or3things]

Do you think the desire is about wanting to feel like you have a "real" relationship with her? (By "real" I only mean typical. I'm not trying to disparage the therapy relationship, but we all know it has limitations we don't encounter in other sorts of relationships.)

What sort of sticks out for me in what you've said above is that you want to see her at the gym, you want to run into her at the store, you want her to show you pictures, etc. To me that seems like it could be as much about the interaction between the two of you as it is about what you'd learn about her.

I suppose it could also be something in you that feels a need to invade others' boundaries. (I myself am terrified of accidentally crossing a T boundary, but sometimes I wonder if part of my terror isn't about knowing how strong the urge would be to make those crossings if I didn't keep it in check. Knowing that T would never allow such a crossing (or else that there would be consequences) I think I've trained myself to fear my own desire for it.)

But it sounds like this desire to cross boundaries isn't something you struggle with when it comes to other people. Is it because T is the one person with whom you can't have a typical relationship? Is it because you feel like she's the one person who could give you the kind of care you want (but that it won't be "real" unless it's not just one-sided or that she isn't giving you everything of herself?

It's tough, I know. And painful. T's are good at holding tight to boundaries most times. And they do it because it's what's best for us, even when we hate it. Just keep looking at it Squiggle, and I know you'll figure out what's good and right, and you'll find just what you need.

[unaluna]

Maybe part of what is going on, since you only ever see her at a church office, I assume that's not HER private owned space with her things in it, pictures, books, etc - so now she's on vacation, and you don't have a place in your mind really for her to come back to, that has her "stuff" in it? Cos like my T's office almost doesn't need him in it, once all the therapy dolls are set up in the chairs! So where is your therapy place, where is she missing "from", in your mind right now? By asking about her "real" life now, it sounds like she has disappeared for you.

I think it's something about the closeness of the therapeutic relationship. They know all about us, and if we really don't know about them, the relationship feels .... off balance. I think it's natural, really. I think as humans we need that intimacy, and to have it but only one-sided just doesn't feel right. So we want to balance it. My T self-discloses quite a bit (but not to the point of going on and on about himself) and it helps make the relationship more real - like two people rather than just T and patient. It sounds like you're feeling a connection and want to expand it and make it the way it should be between two people, more even.

I've had several dreams about T where I am part of his life - sometimes with his family, sometimes just him, and everything is very normal. However, in most of the dreams I realize at some point I don't belong there, and need to leave. I always feel very sad, but resigned.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by Squiggle328

Why do I want that so much? Why does that even matter one bit? ... Would it hurt for her to open up her facebook pics and just show me a little bit of her life? That can't hurt that much can it? I have shown her mine. Shown her lots of pictures. Why can't I see a few of hers?

Squiggle, have you asked your therapist these questions? Maybe she thinks it would be harmful to you to see too much of her life. Or maybe she thinks it would be harmful to her, that she needs this degree of separateness and her privacy from clients. Would knowing her reason why help you accept her decision? Can you discuss with her? There was a time when my T had to back out of an agreement I thought we had had, and it helped me so much to have him thoroughly explain his decision. I learned he really had my best interests at heart, and I was quite touched.

[franki_j]

I can really relate to this. I always imagine my T doing "normal" things, and I wonder how she is in situations outside of T. However, I would not want to run into T when she was grocery shopping, etc. That would be weird, and I wouldn't know how to react. I think I would just like to see her grocery shopping, being a normal person, but I would not want to interact with her while she was doing so. Or sometimes I imagine seeing my T on the subway, reading a book or something, and just being another person on a crowded subway train. To me she would be special, but not to any other person on the train.
Also, my T does not self-disclose at all. I have never questioned her about it or asked her personal questions about herself, but I think that this is part of the reason why I want to know so much about her and am so curious. I definitely do not have this problem in RL with my friends, (ie wanting to know more about them), but with T, because she doesn't tell me anything, I have this intense desire to know. Like WikidPissah said, I know that my T is entitled to a private life, which is what makes me feel bad about snooping online and finding out info about her, but on the other hand, I need to know something about her to make sure she is a real person.
Edit: For example, when I found out that she is not married and has no kids and both her parents have passed away, it helped me to share things with her. She doesn't know that I know these things about her, but without them I would not have been able to share as much of myself. I think it is because I can imagine her maybe getting lonely or sad, and so this makes me see her as having vulnerabilities and being not perfect, which in turn helps me to share my vulnerabilities with her.

Actually, I know alot about my therapist. I have met her kids and husband and even talked with them. At first I was freaked out, but it is okay now. I know where she lives, where she works out, where her kids go to school, where she goes to church, etc....lots of bits and pieces of info she has told me herself.

If I really did run into her somewhere, I am not sure how I would react. Probably freak out! But then again, it would be kinda cool to see her be 'normal'. I do see that side of her when we meet at the church. I see her interact with others on the staff, talk with her kids, etc......

I don't feel that I am wanting to cross a boundary. I just want to know she is real outside of therapy. I know that sounds bizarre, but I honestly struggle with that. We do have a mutual friend that was her college roommate. I see this person several times a month. But everytime I see her, I think about what it must have been like to be my therapist's roommate!

I don't have this kind of feeling about any other relationship in my life. Not one of my doctor's would I even spend a minute wondering about their personal life. Yet, with her, I think about it all the time. I am not obsessed with her, but I do think about her more than I would like to admit. It's like she is in my brain all the time! I don't like it, but I don't know how to make this stop. It is insanity!

[rainbow8]

Squiggle, I think you know by now that I relate very much to your question and your feelings!! I wish I could see my T in RL too. When she mentions her kids, I wish I could see them. I wish I could watch her go about her activities other than as a T. I wish I could see all of her pictures too.

But.....I used to see my former T in the restaurant, at functions, around town, and it was okay but awkward. I had met her family too, and knew her H before I knew her. That didn't change anything positively for me, though I didn't have such an urge to know her, at least. I still wanted our CONNECTION to be more real.

I saw my current T's kids' photos on FB and a couple of her H and it made me feel worse, not better. I stopped looking them up. She said she would show me their photos on her camera, so she showed me a few. I'm not sure. I think that also made me more upset, not less.

I'm wondering if our want is more to be WITH our Ts in their daily life, not to see pictures of it. At least for me, I wish I were IN her life outside of therapy. That's what the yearning is for.

Since we can't have that, what helps is to have that connection in the room. At least we can have that! But it's not the same; it's bittersweet. One day I asked my T what her favorite song, color, food, movie, etc. are. She told me. That helped me to feel that I knew her more. I don't know if there's an answer for me or for you. It's the way therapy is. If our T were someone we knew in RL, we wouldn't have these feelings. It's just their role, and we have to deal with it the best we can. I talk to my T about it, and she understands. That helps too.

I wish I had a better answer for you, but at least you know I understand how it is for you.

[Mike_J]

I don't know, some strange therapist thing. I know I could find out all sorts of "data" about my therapist online if I went snooping but that isn't what I want, don't think it's what you want. What I want is information, not where she lives, but why she decided to live there (she could tell me that without reveling her address).

We want our therapist to be real because we want LIKE them, hard to like someone you really don't know. But that "distance" give us room to fill in the blanks in our mind with what we want, knowing the truth might burst our happy little bubble of perfection?

[eclogite]

My relationship and need to know she's real is closest to BunnyWithin's statements.

I know for my example, it was a need not a want. I absolutely could not open up without "getting" something from her. It was two-fold. I needed her to be real to me and I needed to at least have the impression that she was putting something on the line for me to do the same. I know a lot about her and I know HER well now, but I've also always been overly respectful of (and nearly paranoid of violating) the boundaries she erects. When she really started self-disclosing, I stopped being so interested in drumming info up and obsessing.

AND.. for me, her making mistakes and me seeing her as flawed made a big difference in her finally seeming real to me.

Originally Posted by rainbow8

. I'm wondering if our want is more to be WITH our Ts in their daily life, not to see pictures of it. At least for me, I wish I were IN her life outside of therapy. That's what the yearning is for.

It's so interesting that you say this, because I've had a lot of dreams where I'm in my T's life, so it's a powerful unconscious desire. Sometimes I'm with just him, sometimes with his family and/or colleagues, and everything is always so normal. I like the word "yearning" cuz that's just what it feels like. I wonder why. Maybe it's the connection thing like Rainbow said.

My therapist is back from vacation. Our appointment is tomorrow (Monday). I am rather annoyed at her for some stupid reason. Nothing she has done. It's me and my weird stuff going on!

I still think about where she went on vacation. I want to see pictures. What's the big deal about it? Why can't we spend 5 minutes talking about 'her life'? I actually think that would HELP me, not hurt me. It would make me feel more relaxed with her. It would make her "come to life" for me.

I may ask her tomorrow just to see what she says. I am sure she will say something like, "How is showing your pictures of my vacation going to help you?" My response will be "Because I want to see if you are a normal person that does normal things!"

I wish I would stop this insanity and move on. I wish that I didn't have these stupid thoughts about her life. I hate it!

[struggling2]

hi squiggle,
its weird how the T relationship sneaks up on you isnt it. its such a crazy dynamic. it has definitely thrown me for a loop. its such a profound one for us as clients. its an extremely important part of our life....or atleas that is what it has become to me. its hard to wrap my head around it sometimes.

"how has this person that i dont know and that i only see for 45min a week become so important to me?" and when did it become ok for them to take up so much headspace?

as far as the wanting to know more......i think its a fine line. the more you know the better you feel you know them and they dont feel so much like a T.....they feel like a friend, which has made me feel more comfortable over time. i dont feel like im talking to a stranger.

on the flip side, i think it can be distracting. as i get into harder deeper issues i feel like i need to be able to just walk in and focus on me instead of worrying so much about her. we click so well and i know enough about her family that i can easily spend 10-15minutes making small talk and distracting myself away from what i really need to talk about. a good example of the distraction is i knew she was going to be gone a week but last week she told me it was a family vacation with her whole family and where they were going and blah blah blah....which was ok, but at the same time it made me really sad because my family life feels like such a disaster right now and instead of focusing on that i get all wrapped up in how i will never have what she has....a family vacation with my whole family where we love each other and want to be around each other like that....im just rambling now....but point being i think self disclosure is starting to be a hinderance more than a help...

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by struggling2

"how has this person that i dont know and that i only see for 45min a week become so important to me?" and when did it become ok for them to take up so much headspace? ...

thanks S2; I was asking myself similar questions yesterday and found myself wondering whether (can it be true??) it's because nowhere in life do we find someone who is (a) patient enough to listen to what we need to get out; and (b) charitable enough not to come back with something judgmental.

if true, it sure doesn't say much for the caliber of friendships & other reliationships we find IRL. Wow.

[2or3things]

Originally Posted by Squiggle328

I may ask her tomorrow just to see what she says. I am sure she will say something like, "How is showing your pictures of my vacation going to help you?" My response will be "Because I want to see if you are a normal person that does normal things!"

I understand the urge, Squiggle, and I know it's difficult to combat. From my point of view it seems like you're trying to argue with her about her boundaries, and that doesn't seem like anyone's right to determine but hers. But I'm sure you know that.

And I wonder how it would feel if you found out that she's not a normal person who does normal things? I mean, I don't really even know what that means, cause I tend to think that there's a wide range of acceptable human behavior. In other words, with a few exceptions, I think we're all normal, even people whose lives don't look anything like mine. And I suspect that you know your T's life probably looks pretty normal, too. Why does her normalcy matter so much? Would it change the effectiveness of her treatment? Something else?

Just wondering.

How would you feel if all of a sudden your t told you a bunch of stuff? What would that mean to you?
I know alot about my T. It does help. So i definitely understand why you want more info about your t.

[mcl6136]

Well, I had this desire too until I saw my cold, distant t in a pair of shorts (tiny ones) in the gym....

He is kind of softly fat, and has short pink legs.

It was a real downer...like the moment when you saw Johnny Depp pushing a grocery cart loaded with cheese puffs, cheap beer and the spotted vegetables that are marked down as "manager's special." The therapy was over at that point, in retrospect.

[kiki86]

i know a little about my T but it never really satisfies my craving to know more. i think it's because i want to possess a little part of him or something

[autotelica]

It's a blessing and a curse to know your therapist's life.

My therapist is talkative and shares lots of stuff about her life. I use these times to practice my listening skills by asking her questions, and I try to learn some stuff in the process. Like if she talks about family drama, I'll ask why she feels the way she does. It gives me a glimpse into her personality, and it also helps me figure out what the "healthy" response is in situations.

But sometimes I don't care to hear about her life so much, especially when I can't relate to what she's talking about. It makes me feel like I'm back in the "real world", where I feel like an alien but have to hide it to be polite.

I know this sounds messed-up, but I wouldn't mind seeing my therapist show other emotions. She's either very upbeat/positive or angry (which she's never directed at me, but to her staff or people who call her phone during session). I don't know what she's like when she's sad. So that makes her two-dimensional to me and reminds me that our relationship is superficial.

Originally Posted by 2or3things

I understand the urge, Squiggle, and I know it's difficult to combat. From my point of view it seems like you're trying to argue with her about her boundaries, and that doesn't seem like anyone's right to determine but hers. But I'm sure you know that.

And I wonder how it would feel if you found out that she's not a normal person who does normal things? I mean, I don't really even know what that means, cause I tend to think that there's a wide range of acceptable human behavior. In other words, with a few exceptions, I think we're all normal, even people whose lives don't look anything like mine. And I suspect that you know your T's life probably looks pretty normal, too. Why does her normalcy matter so much? Would it change the effectiveness of her treatment? Something else?

Just wondering.

I'm really not arguing with her about boundaries. She actually tells me a lot about her life. She told me that she went to a gymnastics camp last week with her girls. She talked about it a little, but didn't go into a lot of detail. That was enough for me, so that anxiety about it all went away. She never knew, and never will know that I was having a struggle with the issue of where she went.

As for how her normalcy would matter? It matters because I think I am so "not normal". If I hear things that she does/doesn't do it will make me feel more normal. That sounds weird, but it will.

She has actually told me some of her 'quirks'. She has told me about some of her insecurities, so its not like she is a very strict therapist that doesn't share anything at all. She pretty much will talk about her life as long as I am not using it to avoid talking about my life. She reminds me all the time that I am not paying her to talk about herself!

I am the one who is messed up. I have to know that I am safe with the person I am trusting to help me. I have to know that she is not going away or going to discharge me on a whim. That is something that even after two years, I still worry about. She knows I do.

We have a great relationship. I am just still scared of it.

[2or3things]

Originally Posted by Squiggle328

I'm really not arguing with her about boundaries. She actually tells me a lot about her life. She told me that she went to a gymnastics camp last week with her girls. She talked about it a little, but didn't go into a lot of detail. That was enough for me, so that anxiety about it all went away. She never knew, and never will know that I was having a struggle with the issue of where she went.

As for how her normalcy would matter? It matters because I think I am so "not normal". If I hear things that she does/doesn't do it will make me feel more normal. That sounds weird, but it will.

We have a great relationship. I am just still scared of it.

I'm glad you have a great relationship. That matters so much, right?

As for the rest, though, even if it's not a struggle about boundaries per se, it seems to me that it's at least a bit of a struggle about what she will and won't give you. (And I think that might be about boundaries, but maybe not.) In both cases--about her telling you about her personal life and about her seeming normal--the thing you seem to be saying is that something about what she does in her personal life will have an impact on who you are. And while it's great for a T to model positive behavior, etc. in the moment, therapy isn't supposed to work the way you're looking for it to, I think...

If, for example, you base your sense of normalcy on how much you replicate the sorts of things T does, you'll never feel "normal enough." Because you're uniquely Squiggle, and need to appreciate your own strength and wonderfulness, not take someone else's as your own. It's a T's job to help you get to the point where you're confident and calm enough about who you are. Having a sense of normalcy come from your proximity to her won't work, especially if/when you get to the point of not needing therapy anymore. And putting herself out of a job is generally an ethical T's aim with each patient, as it should be.

I hope this helps a little. And hang in there, Squiggle. I know it's hard, but you'll get there!

[sconnie892]

Originally Posted by Squiggle328

As for how her normalcy would matter? It matters because I think I am so "not normal". If I hear things that she does/doesn't do it will make me feel more normal. That sounds weird, but it will.

Squiggle, this made me think of a quote I saw online the other day. It was something like, when we compare ourselves to others, we are comparing our inner lives to their outer lives. The idea being that people can project a very "put together" outer life while feeling very mixed up inside. Your comment made me think of this. That said, I can completely understand wanting to feel normal by seeing how your actions compare to t's. For me, t appears stable. I do not always feel stable. I want to emulate her thinking it will make me feel more stable.

My t will self-disclose, but only when it is helpful to what we are discussing. I know bits and pieces about her. But in some areas, my mind has "filled in the blanks" where I don't know things. For example, my t's office is very neat and orderly. So, I assume her home is also very neat and orderly. But part of me wants to confirm that assumption. I don't necessarily want to see her house or know where she lives. I just want confirmation that my assumption was correct.