[sunrise]

I seem to be having this pattern lately of one good therapy session, then one "bad" (whatever that means), then one good, one bad. It's hard. Because after a good one, I feel so jazzed for the next one, and then I am disappointed, and feel down afterwards.

So a couple of days ago I had one of the "bad" ones. I had felt from the one before that T and I were working so well together, making such progress. Then this last one made me feel confused and like T is being really inconsistent in session. He says something one week, and I think I understand clearly what he says and means, and then the next week, he seems to say the opposite. This has been going on for a little while now. It just throws me for a loop. Sure, I guess he is entitled to change his mind, but he doesn't actually indicate he has changed his mind, just spits out this stuff that seems to contradict what I thought he meant before. Oyyyy. Makes me feel like I don't know WTH is going on.

Just one example: Since I started going to see him over 6 months ago, he's dropped hints that he wants me to bring my husband with me for couples therapy. I highly resisted this, as in change the subject, don't talk to me about that, crawl inside myself and not hear him, etc. We even talked about it very directly and I felt relief when a couple of months ago my lawyer said my T can't work with us as a couple (in another context) due to conflict of interest. Hearing that from her was such a relief and suddenly I felt all the pressure was off, and this allowed me to spill all sorts of stuff in therapy that I had been withholding. Then one thing lead to another, and I actually changed my mind, and came to see doing brief couples therapy with my T could actually be really helpful. And we brainstormed about this and seemed to come up with a way to do it ethically. And he was really excited about this and I felt really positive. Then two days ago he now seems to have changed his mind and is very cool about the idea and warning me it could be disastrous. And I get the idea he now doesn't want to do this. WTF? His energy and enthusiasm for this are gone. He sits on the couch across from me, so far away, like he just doesn't want to be dragged into this. (He never seems to sit up close right in front of me in his chair anymore, and I miss him.) For 6 months he has so wanted to do this, and finally I come to see it could be valuable and agree, and now he backs off? I just feel like I'm on a roller coaster and don't know what is going on. I feel he's being really inconsistent. If he has changed his mind, it would help me if he would just say "I changed my mind." Instead I just feel clueless and out to sea and like I don't know which way is up. He says "we're messing with the frame." Well, OK, the frame is always an issue in such situations, but why didn't he bring this up before if it was problematic so I wouldn't have to go through all this angst and pressure? Surely this can't be occuring to him now for the first time? I trust him as the therapist to deal with keeping the frame, and since he said over and over that we could do couples, I thought he did not think the frame was a problem. OK, maybe I should cut him some slack and just allow him to be human and change his mind. It just makes me feel totally insecure to have this inconsistency. And this is not the only recent topic about which I feel he is being inconsistent.

So I've been thinking about this for the last two days and maybe one good thing has come out of it. I have reached a decision on something I was really stuck on. It's almost like my perception that T was being inconsistent and indecisive made me see I am the one who has to be decisive, consistent, and strong here. I can't depend on him to be that way. This is my life, my decisions. And I made a big one. I'll share my decision with him next time. I feel good about that. I think I have been depending on T too much to help me make decisions. It's quite a burden to thrust on anyone, and really not his job.

i feel your pain. *hugs* I dont have any solutions but can understand how hard this might be.

[kimmydawn]

sunrise,

You have very valid concerns here and good points to show some of why.

You should print this post out and take it to him. Therapy is hard enough; having a therapist that can't be a consistent "rock" can be close to impossible.

I feel for you.

KD

It's true that it is not our T's job to give advice, or make decisions for us. So I'm glad you have made your decision, and you seem comfortable with that. However, it is his job to lead you insight with consistency. And it doesn't sound like you are just sensing inconsistencies in his actions-- they are obviously there, you just typed one out for us. Did you point this out to him? I be forward and say it. "I am noticing some inconsistencies-- you have told me one thing, then another." (Yeah I'm so tough when I suggest what someone else should do, lol). But I do think it's really important for you to do this next time you see him. Especially regarding how he reacted to bringing your husband for counseling. It was something you were so strongly adverse to, and then you changed your mind. And then T changed his mind! I would want to know what type of a message he is trying to send to you.

[sidony]

I agree he should be more consistent!!! But congrats on making a tough decision! I'd definitely also ditto the suggestion that you tell him he seems inconsistent to you. Maybe he can explain his thinking a little better.

Sidony

okay... i'm not seeing the inconsistency. i mean... if cast it so that he was trying to communicate what it is that he wants (e.g., to see you both in therapy or not) then I'm seeing a contradiction, but I'd be really very surprised that that was what he was trying to communicate.

sounds to me that he was bouncing off you rather. you didn't think it would be a good idea and so he set out to tell you about all the ways in which you might benefit from it.

you do think it would be a good idea and so he set out to tell you all the possible risks.

why?

because it is part of informed consent / making an informed decision and truth is that there are potential benefits and harms

because yeah, you need to make the desicion. so you can take some credit for things going well and so that you don't lose all faith in your therapist if things go badly.

it needs to be your decision.

i'm wondering whether the good feeling comes from a sense of connection and whether the bad feeling comes from a sense of disconnection (when you feel like he is trying to persuade you do so something he wants you to do but you don't want to talk about it).

could be profitable to discuss this with him.

[sunrise]

Thanks EV, kimmydawn, pinksoil, and sidony.

kimmydawn, I kind of was feeling like I was being pushed to be the "rock" by his inconsistency. Maybe not such a bad thing.

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And it doesn't sound like you are just sensing inconsistencies in his actions-- they are obviously there, you just typed one out for us. Did you point this out to him?

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No, I didn't, at least not last time. I was having trouble "getting my footing." I was feeling kind of bewildered in therapy, like WTF? I need to tell him that. Maybe he doesn't know he seems so confusing to me.

There are opportunities to bring my husband for counseling in two different contexts. We could do both or only one or the other, or neither. They are both very different with different goals. My decision is that it would be best not to bring him for counseling with T in the first context. I will do it on my own. I've weighed the pros and cons and this is what I want. And if T suddenly bursts out, "But I want to be involved too," I think I will just smack him one. Then we need to discuss the second context and decide, will I bring him for couples, yes or no? If no, will we go to another professional instead (I have a name)? And if no to that, what next? I feel like I at least have it broken into discrete steps and decision points. Each one brings its own round of discussion and other points to consider. Sigh, this is so complicated and takes so long. That's one good thing about my making at least one decision--at least we can stop spending time on that in therapy and get on to the next thing.

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And then T changed his mind! I would want to know what type of a message he is trying to send to you.

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Maybe that he is getting cold feet about the whole endeavor? If so, it's OK to tell me that rather than leaving me guessing. I guess I'll have to give him permission to be straight with me, or something like that.

[sunrise]

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alexandra_k said:
okay... i'm not seeing the inconsistency. i mean... if cast it so that he was trying to communicate what it is that he wants (e.g., to see you both in therapy or not) then I'm seeing a contradiction, but I'd be really very surprised that that was what he was trying to communicate.

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I didn't really understand what this paragraph means, alexandra.

The inconsistency is that for 6 months he has been trying to convince me to do something and we have talked about the pros and cons all along. He never tried to hide the cons from me. I have been informed all along. And in fact, whenever I brought up a con, he was quick to refute it. Finally, I saw some benefit and agreed. He was ULTRA ENTHUSIASTIC about this and couldn't wait to dig in. Then all of a sudden, next session, he completely reverses himself. Without any explanation at all. I think if he had said something like, "I've been thinking about this and have changed my mind. I now don't think it's a good idea because of X, Y, and Z." But I'm getting no new info, just T reversing course, both factually and emotionally, with no acknowledgment of his prior stance at all. It's like he has a twin brother and sent him instead. (Hmmmm, that provokes some nice fantasies.) Anyway, hope that explains it better.

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i'm wondering whether the good feeling comes from a sense of connection and whether the bad feeling comes from a sense of disconnection

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Yes, the bad feeling comes from a sense of disconnection. It's very jarring when we have been so close before. And so it switches back and forth, one session we are close, the next session we are more distant. It's hard on me.

Got to run. Going out of town....

[withit]

Sunrise, my t used to do this too and she explained to me that she is acting the part of the devil's advocate. At first I resented her for it, also had these ups and downs...today you're my ally....today you're not....when I developed enough trust in myself I was able to handle the devil's advocate part of her....I think cuz I used to entrust her with all the decision-making and expected her to lead me down the right path....I eventually learned to appreciate when she played devil's advocate...she's still my ally and as my ally she's pointing out the risks....
IMO if your dh comes in for any kind of counseling with this t you may start to feel this is no longer 'your' space....there are definitely risks involved...I know I did it and the benefit was that t saw first hand what kind of bs I had to contend with on a daily basis....but in working on the marriage I felt she was not aligning herself with me, rather with the 'marriage' and there was a definite conflict of interests.
I think it depends on the individual issues involved....consider carefully....share with us if you'd like....
Take gentle care,

(( sunrise ))

I'm really sorry you're having a hard time

I have no idea what's up with your T, but I just get the feeling he is doing some kind of reality check, making sure that this is your decision, something you really want to do--rather that a decision to please him, like a mirroring of the enthusiasm he showed about it. You reaction might even be seen by him as an indication of how or why you came to your decision.

I have heard of 'confusion therapy' and I hope it isn't that because I think purposely being confusing just sounds too mean. Cripes life is confusing enough.

Could too, be a case of becareful what you ask for.... maybe he's getting what he asked for and the reality is sobering for him?

I don't know, but sunny, you always are so kind and supportive and you encourage us to talk to our T's about things we are worrying about, posting about, speculating about.... so I have to say that I hope you will talk to him about he seeming lack of enthusiasm and how you feel about it.

ECHOES

i posted a response but internet explorer ate it so this is round two...

> The inconsistency is that for 6 months he has been trying to convince me to do something

and this is what i'm questioning. i was thinking... that your main reason for not wanting to do couples therapy with him was fear that he would side with your husband over you and that you would lose his support. i'm not sure that he was ever trying to convince you do to couples therapy, but i am thinking that he was trying to get you thinking on some of the benefits that could ensue from couples therapy so you didn't simply write the idea off out of fear that you would lose your therapist.

> Finally, I saw some benefit and agreed.

you agreed with what you think he wanted you to do.

> Then all of a sudden, next session, he completely reverses himself.

and starts considering some of the possible negatives about couples therapy.

> I think if he had said something like, "I've been thinking about this and have changed my mind. I now don't think it's a good idea because of X, Y, and Z."

sounds to me like you are trying to figure out what he wants you to do and you are feeling frustrated because you think he has changed his mind.

i'm thinking though that he doesn't want you to simply come into line with what he thinks is best, he wants you to come to your own decision on what you think is best for good reasons.

couples therapy isn't about the therapist taking sides. it is possible to support two people even when those two people are disagreeing. sounds like he didn't want you to make your decision out of fear that he would turn against you... but he does want you to make your decision on the basis of considering some of the other pros and cons.

focusing on pros one week (or for several weeks) and then focusing on cons the next week (or the next several weeks) isn't being contradictory. if you are trying to get at what he thinks is best then i understand how it could look like he is changing his mind and i understand how if it is important to you to come into line with his decision that could be quite frustrating.

> Yes, the bad feeling comes from a sense of disconnection. It's very jarring when we have been so close before. And so it switches back and forth, one session we are close, the next session we are more distant. It's hard on me.

yes. so what i'm thinking...

when you were little... did you have to come into line with what your parents thought best in order for them to approve of you? did you get a lot of 'see, i told you so' if you asserted your right to come to your own decision and it happened to turn out badly? did you come to think that you are incapable of deciding what is best for you and that you better rely on others to make important decisions for you? did you need to come into line with what they wanted in order for them to approve of you?

over time... what can happen is that we don't know what we think anymore... we look to others to decide for us. there is some kind of security in that... but then if the decision turns out well then it can confirm our belief that we need another person to make the decisions for us. if the decision turns out badly then at least we weren't responsible for it. we might even get to say 'see, i told you so'.

sounds to me like he is trying to get you to make your own decision.

when you think your decision is in agreement with what he thinks best then you feel happy and connected and safe...
when you start to doubt that he is in line with your decision then you start to feel full of self doubt and you feel disconnected and unsafe...

not sure if this resonates... but if so... it would be well worth talking to him about it...

and... it is working:

> I have reached a decision on something I was really stuck on. It's almost like my perception that T was being inconsistent and indecisive made me see I am the one who has to be decisive, consistent, and strong here. I can't depend on him to be that way. This is my life, my decisions. And I made a big one. I'll share my decision with him next time. I feel good about that. I think I have been depending on T too much to help me make decisions. It's quite a burden to thrust on anyone, and really not his job.

indeed! if he focuses on pros at one time and cons at another and he does this repeatedly over time... then there is little to be done but to give up trying to figure out what he thinks and so... one makes ones own decisions. when they turn out well then we develop more of a sense of self and more of a sense of competence in ourself :-) when they turn out badly... oh well... if we never made mistakes we would never get to learn from them.

the pros and cons thing... is a great skill to learn too :-)

[SecretGarden]

Well shucks... You have headed out of town...

I have not alot to say except I think you need to confront it... and that perhaps pertains to what Alexandra was saying...you are confused or not sure what is going on so therefore the disconnect... TIme to reconnect.

I also agree with Pink.

I wonder about your taking charge... I think that it is a good thing for you to take charge of your journey and your therapy but does this experience have you questioning your therapists abilities so that you feel like you HAVE to take charge. It is your journey... but you need solid players in the journey I would think.

Just an aside... Might you think of going to couples with yet a different therapist?

Have a great trip....

[lauren_helene]

I am sorry too Sunrise. I'm not in the best mood today it is hard to see anything positive in this therapy experience right now.

Look at a lot of our posts, many of us feeling the exact same way. Rejected, abandoned and unloved by the very people that we once trusted.

Am I the only one who is frustrated by all the mystery in this process? Why can't they just be consistently straight with us?

Maybe Sunrise, he spoke to his lawyer and the lawyer made him back off. I wouldn't doubt that for a second. There is no other logical reason that I can see that would make him change is mind in a nanosecond like that. Does he get the impact this is having on you?

Maybe you need to do my interrogration style questioning next session. I feel good that I got it all out but the continued rejection is really getting stupid now.

[withit]

almeda24fan, I'm interested to hear about your interrogation style questioning. I don't want to hijack this thread, so would you be able to start a new thread on the topic? If you've already posted about it, can you just refer me to the post? Thanks!

[sunrise]

Thanks withit and ECHOES, for your thoughtful comments.

withit, no I don't think my T is being devil's advocate. I know him too well and would pick up on this. ECHOES, and I don't think he is playing at "confusion therapy" (that sounds yucky). Truly, my T is a very straight guy, quite direct, and doesn't play games. And yes, we have definitely discussed the conflict of interest in having my T now be a T to us as a couple rather than just me. We have definitely gone over all the issues multiple times in the last months.

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maybe he's getting what he asked for and the reality is sobering for him?

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Could be, ECHOES. I was out of town for a whirlwind trip and had a lot of time to think about this (like lying awake in the wee hours this morning in the hotel room). I'm still not sure exactly what's going on, but I'm thinking that maybe as I have revealed more to T in the last couple of weeks as to just how far gone my marriage is, he has lost interest in working with us as a couple, recognizing that his usual M.O. might be inappropriate here. He sees he can't really help in the way he usually helps and likes to help, and he is adding that to the potential worry he has that he will hurt me by building rapport with my husband in my presence. The negatives add up for him. That's my best guess now.

[sunrise]

alex, thanks for your long post and especially for posting it a second time after it got eaten the first attempt. Most of what you suggested doesn't ring true for my situation, however, although I appreciate your thoughtfulness. Yes, my T did want to do couples therapy, and very strongly. I know him well enough to know he was not faking.

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your main reason for not wanting to do couples therapy with him was fear that he would side with your husband over you and that you would lose his support

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No, my main reason for dreading couples therapy was that I don't want any emotional connection with my husband and I was afraid I would just lose it in the therapy room with my T present, because I have gotten so used to being honest and genuine with him in that space. I was terrified I would break down and show my husband my pain. And I don't want to share that with him. No, my T did not start considering the negatives of couples therapy only after I agreed to do it. We discussed both pros and cons a number of times over the last months. It's just that suddenly he granted the cons some merit. But they were certainly not new to him or me.

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i'm thinking though that he doesn't want you to simply come into line with what he thinks is best

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No, I want to do what is best for me. There have been other times I sought my T's approval but this is not one of them. This is too important to my life and happiness to let concerns about my therapist get in the way. He tried really hard to convince me to do couples therapy and finally, he won me over and I did indeed see the benefit he was touting. I still see it, but with his loss of desire to be the T for this, the benefit is lost, if that makes sense.

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did you have to come into line with what your parents thought best in order for them to approve of you?

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No, I was quite the rebel and was very independent. Sorry, no transference in this instance!

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when you think your decision is in agreement with what he thinks best then you feel happy and connected and safe

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No, doesn't fit again. We don't have to agree for me to feel connection. I am connected to him when we have a rapport in session, when he sits closer to me and we connect and there is interplay in our talk and thoughts, when he is strongly empathetic and directs his energy at me. Didn't happen last session. I miss him.

okay...

well then i guess all there is left to be done is to ask him where his enthusiasm for the notion went.

maybe he was having a bad day... or maybe he has come around to another way of thinkng...

[sunrise]

thanks SecretGarden and Almedafan for your thoughts.

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you are confused or not sure what is going on so therefore the disconnect... TIme to reconnect

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I think that is it, SecretGarden. I am so ready to reconnect! I hope it will be possible in our next session.

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you need solid players in the journey I would think.

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I still think he is solid. I need to communicate better my confusion so he can clarify. His actions probably all make sense to him. That will be a goal of next session.

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Just an aside... Might you think of going to couples with yet a different therapist?

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Yes, as I mentioned up thread, for the second arena in which we might try couples counseling, T and I have identified a possible alternative therapist for this. The decision will be whether to use T or this other person for that or neither. (The decision I already made was not to use my T for the first context of couples counseling, in fact, to use no one for that, because that is what I believe is best for the situation.) The second context has completely different goals and it might be possible to have my T do it. Or he might be able to consult with the other T on it and then we would go to that person. I feel not ready to discuss this with T at our next session because there is so much else to discuss.

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Maybe Sunrise, he spoke to his lawyer and the lawyer made him back off.

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Interesting idea, Almedafan. I hadn't thought of that. Do T's consult with their lawyers on therapy practice? If not, maybe another therapist/psychologist colleauge? (At any rate, I know he hasn't spoken to my lawyer.)

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Does he get the impact this is having on you?

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Probably not, but that's my responsibility to let him know.

Thanks so much for all your advice and comments, everyone. It was great to come back to them all after my time away.

Alex, I look back on what I posted to you and although much of what you suggested didn't apply to me, it was actually helpful to read what you wrote and be able to know with certainty that at least those were not the issues at hand, so I could focus on what was. If that makes sense...

Wow, I sure have a lot for my next session.

[withit]

Yeah, please do let us know how you make out....best of luck!

[Perna]

Sunrise, it's interesting to me that you bring up a situation that isn't really about your therapy but is more a logistical, almost non-problem. I don't believe you've mentioned what your husband thinks about the whole thing or why you'd want/consider doing couples therapy with your individual therapist. Often therapists "specialize" a bit and if yours is doing individual therapy, I don't know that he'd be a good choice for marriage/couple's therapy?

I don't see any inconsistency, just the same wondering you are doing about should we do this activity/should we not. Whatever you do, it shouldn't affect your individual therapy. I am curious though, why if he recommended marriage/couple's therapy you didn't look into finding a therapist for that (or think to stop individual with him if you wanted him for a different "purpose" therapy) or mention your husband and his wants, etc.? With what you've said though, I would not see this therapist for any couples/marriage work as he doesn't appear to have a clear idea for himself as to what is a good idea or even what he'd like. If he's having trouble getting over the first hurdle of getting together I can't imagine him being very effective as a joint therapist? And now that you have continued on a bit with individual and "spilled the beans" as you say in your individual work, he seems wholly inappropriate to me to do joint work for you.

[MissCharlotte]

Sunrise,

Do you think that maybe the work you have been doing in therapy led your T to back off the idea of couples therapy? I think that is what happened for me when the idea of couples therapy came up. It's surely worth bringing this all up and asking him about it so you are clear on your relationship with him and the work you are doing.

[sunrise]

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Do you think that maybe the work you have been doing in therapy led your T to back off the idea of couples therapy?

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sister, yes, I think that may be it. I posted something similar to ECHOES a few posts back. In the last few weeks I have revealed a lot more to my T about my marriage, and I think some of that may have affected his position. At least that's my current thinking. Thanks for your support.

Perna, some of those questions you raise we are dealing with now. My T is a family therapist who meets with different family groupings as well as does individual psychotherapy. He does lots of couples work and has particular expertise in divorcing couples, but he also will help couples repair their marriages, if that is what they want. He is expert in working with different combinations of the same family, including individuals. This is very common among family therapists. I am aware of the pros and cons of doing family therapy and individual therapy with the same therapist. (I have a good Internet reference that lays it all out if anyone is interested.) You're right, I haven't told you guys the whole story and why it would be beneficial to do couples work in several contexts. T and I are brainstorming on what is best but we don't have all the answers yet. There are different reasons to bring my husband to therapy in different contexts each with a very different goal. For the first context, I have decided it is better to do it alone. That was what the disconnect/inconsistency was last session with T. He changed his mind on his participation in the first context. And as I wrote before, if he is lacking enthusiasm for the process, then it is senseless to proceed. In addition, this particular context was originally his idea and I always had reservations. A different therapist could not fill his role in this first context, so the choice is either him or no one, and I have chosen no one. For the second context, it could be T or another provider or maybe no one. He has identified another provider that would be suitable if that is what we decide. For the third context, it will definitely be the other provider, due to conflict of interest (according to both my lawyer and my T). I'm sorry to be so cryptic, but it would take a book to explain it all and also be more exposure than I think is wise. Yes, my husband will be a part of the decision making process. It takes two to tango. I am working on what to offer and propose to him. My lawyer is helping with strategizing as well as my T. I find it kind of strange you think my issues are non-problems, Perna. They are big and complicated to me and I am getting closer to being able to surmount them, but sometimes I do get overwhelmed. I know a lot of the people here talk about their feelings in therapy and the transference and such all the time, but I also have this very nuts-and-bolts/logistical component to my therapy that is very real and that I don't always like to engage with. Sure I'd like to spend all my time with T discussing dreams and attachment and such, but at some point you just have to deal with the nuts and bolts. Divorce is one of the most painful and life changing events a person will ever go through. I'm doing the best I can, which I am the first to acknowledge often seems pathetic in its slowness and functionality. But I'm still trying. I am glad for the empathy of my T.

[Lemon]

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sunrise said:
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Divorce is one of the most painful and life changing events a person will ever go through. I'm doing the best I can, which I am the first to acknowledge often seems pathetic in its slowness and functionality. But I'm still trying. I am glad for the empathy of my T.

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Sunrise - This is so true. I too will not go into the details of my marriage here, but I really feel your pain in your post and wishing the best for you in your decision making. It made me feel better to hear that you are also working through nuts and bolts type issues and it is functional sometimes rather than emotional discovery (though one can lead to the other). Maybe this is something unique to marriage/relationship issues because there are two people involved and so there is a need to make decisions at times and communicate those decisions to others. That's what I feel anyhow. Sometimes in therapy I'd like to continue to just discuss my feelings, but there are somethings that have to be decided and communicated to my husband and that has to be taken care of as well as my own mental health. I'm really impressed with how you have thought through different scenarios and are forming a plan with your T. I think that is a great way to go about it.

[sunrise]

Thanks so much for your post, Lemon. What you wrote is exactly what I am going through. I do often feel torn in therapy between wanting to focus on feelings, past trauma, dreams, attachment, etc. and the reality of my marriage and all the directed problem solving that involves. I know when I first went to see my T, I was unable to even engage for 5 minutes with him on the subject of my marriage. Now 6 months later we are able to talk a whole session about it and plan for the future. When I compare now to then, I see I have made progress. But I still have a ways to go. Thanks again.