Dear T,

i don't know what to say. Last week you took away the fragile trust we had built. You promised me that you would never do anything to deliberately produce anxiety without it being a joint decision... and then you changed the rules. i was ok that you didn't return my call, but when you told me you decided not to because you wanted to discourage me from engaging in testing and re-testing, that was a breach of trust. You didn't talk about that with me, it wasn't a joint decision. You don't understand why i have been calling to test... and you didn't ask.

i want to be me with you. i want to be my authentic self and not the presentation that i am for everyone else. i wanted to learn to be me. i call because in doing that i am afraid of doing something wrong. i call to make sure you haven't been pushed away.

you want me to find ways of doing this on my own... but you never prepared me for it and you never discussed it with me. Now i don't know what you will do. Now i think it's not safe to call you. Now i think you will change the rules whenever you want and i know that means i need to hold back so that i don't fall.

i don't know how to trust you anymore. i don't know what to do. i think you made a mistake, and i want to be able to be ok with that part, but when it means such pain for me, what do i do? This isn't like other relationships. This is like open heart surgery, not a lot of room for mistakes.

i'll see you on Tuesday as scheduled and i hope you have ideas on how to deal with this because i don't.

[bipolar_bear]

I think that is a great post to take to your session.

BB

oh god, that is never going to session with me. nope. i have huge issies with anything that might be seen as a criticism of him.HUge. i cannot say to him that he messed up or that i was at all mad. i can say i was upset but i can't in any way do anything which may cause anger or upset in him, real or perceived.

so no, it won't go. i will sit on it. i will go and tell him how upset i was, how hard those days were and what i ended up doing to myself to compensate... and i am considering telling him i need a new T, or just not going to therapy. i spend a lot of time thinking about therapy, thinking about him and our relationship, but not enough time thinking about my issues that i went there to solve. i feel so much worse and not in a way that moves me forward. i just feel worse generally.

[confused4ever]

I know what you mean gerber (((((hugs)))))) I have a hard time expressing myself to my T when he does something that I do not agree with. It is something I have issues with, speaking up for myself when it comes to someone that has influence or authority in my life.......I shut up and never say my feelings.........then I take it out on me!!!!

I think what you wrote is awesome, and I hope you have the courage to bring it or email it to him. It isn't at all derogatory, or anything, just speaks your feelings in a very positive way about how you feel!! I wish I could do the same!!

[Fuzzybear]

[RiverX]

(((((((((gerber)))))))))))))
I had some very similar expereinces, and they really, really did my head in. And with my vulnerability, when I get triggered like that, my whole body goes into reaction.

This has made me think............. I left that one who did this, she did a few things that were like moving the goal posts without telling me, - like kind of invisible manoueveres, I felt that didnt respect me as an adult, like she was trying to shake my sense of self. What you have said has reinforced what I belive, that it is damaging when they behave like that. Its almost like they dont know the quality of sensitivity they have reached in us.

I know I'm downloading some of my own feelings here, hope you dont feel I'm taking away from your original share, I do feel a great need to explore my experiences with the help of the people here.

I also thought that was a good letter and would be a good thing to show him. But I know that feeling of loyalty which I also had that made me want to protect him/ her/ the relationship, it happened to me with several. The whole thing is such a sensitive connection.
I had such bad expereinces in therapy because of things like this.
One of them moved my session without telling me when I was away on hol, ........... I tried to explain how wrong it was to do that, he didnt get it, justified himself instead. I was too lost then to persue it and didnt want to waste more of my session.

I want one day to go back, I want to be in a fit state to make my point until its gone home, even if it means battering thier head off the wall (verbally, not literally)

Do you know what your Ts training is? I wonder if its the same as mine had.

riverX

yup. no speaky anything bad about T to T. i was trying to work on that but it's gone waaaaaaay back into it's hole now. No showy. No talky.

sadly i have some "evidence" on me of how i take it out on me. Also spent a week undoing many of the gains i had tried to make. He had asked me what i got out of therapy... and one was trying to make a social network, friends etc... i spent the week isolated, drunk and hurting myself.

i have always been a decent writer.. just no courage.

me too

no, you're not hijacking at all.. i prefer discussion and that means two sides. i am very ambivalent about therapy. i have met a LOT of people in mental health circles due to various experiences, both professionals and clients/patients... but i have met so very few who seem to have gone through therapy and gotten better. i have met a number who have gotten a lot better than they were, but then stopped moving forward... some just because of their own limitations and others because it meant leaving therapy and they couldn't tolerate the idea. Some will change T's because they have some kind of need to go through the process again and again... which says to me they didn't get healed, what they got was addicted to the process somehow.

i am sorry your experiences were bad too. i have been hurt in the past so bad it took me 10yrs to try again. But that's another tale...the one of the T that wasn't. Like my T said, anyone can call themselves a "therapist" doesn't mean they have any training. This time i sought out a psychologist for that very reason.

i'd be very interested in discussing your experiences more if you care to share them.

Hey. I had a similar experience with my therapist. He took 3 weeks off and said that we could email during that time. I sent him an email and he responded. I sent him an email... And he didn't respond. I waited a week and sent him another (a little panicky) and he didn't respond. I waited a couple days and sent him another (in which I said 'I feel abandoned') and he didn't respond. He sent me a txt the night before we were due for a session and said he was sorry he had been busy but he hoped I'd come in for a session. I wouldn't have gone back if he hadn't have done that...

In the session I was mad and hurt and felt abandoned and betrayed. I don't express anger either. Don't want him to get angry with me :-( I did say that I felt hurt, though. That I understood that he was busy and stuff... But I said that he shouldn't have promised to email me if that was likely to be a promise that he couldn't keep.

> You promised me that you would never do anything to deliberately produce anxiety without it being a joint decision...

It might be that similarly, that is making a promise that he isn't able to keep. It depends on what is likely to produce anxiety in you, you see. See... It might be that he needs to cancel a session for some reason but doing so will produce anxiety in you. It might be that he needs to change the session time but doing so will produce anxiety in you. It might be that he can't take emails or phone calls but not doing so will produce anxiety in you.

I told my therapist that I felt hurt and stuff in response to his action. I told him that the worst thing was that he made a promise and he didn't keep it. I told him that it was important to me that he not make promises that he is unlikely to be able to keep because if he does that then I can't trust the promises he makes.

He leaned forward through all this... Listening intently to me... He didn't attempt to explain away his actions or justify his actions. He didn't tell me that my response was unreasonable or that he hadn't done anything wrong. He just said... 'Don't make promises you can't keep'. He understood what I was saying.

And then... We talked about times in the past where I had felt like people had let me down. How that felt. The kinds of things that had happened to me and how this incident brought a lot of stuff up for me.

It turned out okay because... He is a kind person who does his best. But... He is only human. It is a mark of being human (compared with superhuman) that mistakes are inevitable. Therapists aren't perfect. That being said the fact that he is trying to help me and he listens to me and he doesn't mock me or hate me goes a long way. His basic attunement goes a long way to repair the rupture in the relationship.

Sometimes I think therapy is about that... Failure of optimal responsiveness. Hurt. Upset. Triggering past stuff. Processing that past stuff. Repairing the relationship. Over and over and over again. Over time... The repair gets easier as we develop more of a trust that such things can be repaired in a way that preserves both of the peoples dignity.

It is important to talk to him about this... And his reaction... Could be very healing indeed. Scary, though, when in the past one simply wasn't able to talk about this kind of stuff because the other persons ego was so fragile that talking about it would have been running the risk of damaging the relationship irrevokably...

Hang in there.

[RiverX]

i'd love to talk more, in fact, I need to. It has been helpful reading your and Alexandra's experiences here. Mine are coming a bit more into perspective. As you said about addicted, that is what happened to me... totally addicted, or, actually, betrayal bonded would be more accurate, which is a form of addiction. (Patrick Carnes: The Betrayal Bond.

It was the combination of good and bad and missatunement .............. they 'M. therapists', - I repeated with several, could get staight through to my soul, - here was the potential for healing and understanding I'd searched for all my life. Great!! but there was an undercurrent from hell, and I could see that in the literature, but I wanted to break through.
It seemed like the price I had to pay was my soul. They would say that is my schizoidness and that its transference, ie, me projecting onto them. Some of it is, but I couldnt get back into reality because they kept doing this stuff. Of course I tried to protest, but it didnt stick.

I do want to go back, but when I have learnt an ability to confront, and stand my ground. And that is something I need to learn for my life anyway.
It was like, as you described Gerba, I was acting out, paralysed, couldnt self activate, all my focus was on conversations in my head, one cant combat that stuff, once it has got inside you, or at least I couldnt then.
"......about a supercharged relationship that is so compelling it can kill you" Patrick Carnes. That totally fitted, no exaggeration.

However, I continued to read the literature and still find I love the understanding and the truth I get from it, so the reality here is all conflicted. But I do know one heals in relationship.
As therapy seems so perilous, my wish, my dream, is for a fellowship for this stuff as an alternative, and be less dependent on them.

I'm not sure when I'll be ready to go back, but it feels like getting quite near. Would love support here to stand my ground with my own truth if I go back.

riverx

you're right alex, he can't promise to never do anything which might make me anxious... but that wasn't quite the promise he made. He said he wouldn't do anything to deliberately produce anxiety, ie anxiety for anxiety's sake. He had said he would not evoke anxiety deliberately... which is not the same. Lots of things would produce anxiety as you said, and lots of them would be intentional acts, but not acts intended to produce anxiety.... does that make sense?

He chose not to call so as to let me be thrown into the deep end. SInk or swim. Figure it out. No plan. No help. No preparation. No warning and certainly no joint decision.

The *only* reason i went back on Tuesday was a wise friend reminded me that he was, as you said, human and prone to mistakes. i told him that. i told him i thought he had made a mistake but this was like open heart surgery and there wasn't a lot of room for mistakes.

Like your T mine did not confirm or dent my words or feelings about him being wrong. But unlike yours, mine did not lean forward nor show me any outward sign of understanding or empathy in this case.

i long for him to just lean forward, like he did at one point a long time ago. i felt so connected then... just reach in to me... reach half way.

we didn't talk about things like this from my past.

we did talk about questions i asked myself about it, like why did such a small thing (seemingly) produce such and intense reaction? why did it undo all the good he has done?

i told him i wanted to stop putting out fires every week... my life is a disaster and will be for the next while anyway, so why bother? i told him we should just move on to other things.

we spent a lot of time with me asking him about how he does things when dealing with deeper stuff...hypothetical situations, etc.

i left feeling empty and dispondent (sp?)... i still feel that way.

i don't know that i am getting a benefit that is worth the cost at this point.

He is a good guy and i can tell he does what he does well. i am just not very sure that what he does is what i need. He is capable of it, but i don't get enough of it often enough to make me feel accepted and safe. i like him a lot but find i am constantly just wanting him to act a little more gentle and tender with me.

i am not asking for him to tell me he cares, as nice as that would be, i am wanting him to show me he does through his body language, actions and words. Lean forward, speak softly, use that soothing tone... too much to long for?

i feel so lost and desparately sad. A deep cloud has settled over me and i am finding it hard to do anything..

i understand... i do. Forgive me for being muddled and slow right now. Something has sort of caved in on me in my spirit and i feel so very very sad.

learning to stand your ground is important but a catch 22, as if you knew how you wouldn't need therapy as much. That is why choosing a gentle T would be important to you. Right now, while you are not connected and attached, and subsequently influenced to submit, write down the things which make you feel betrayed or otherwise unheard.

write down things like rescheduled appointments need to be in advance if at all possible, set firm goals that aren't moved on you... and so on. What sets you off about what they do is as informative about you as it is about them as well. So a new T would learn a lot about how to relate to you and about your issues. At this stage you are more likely to write your true feelings, albeit tainted with some anger, and that will be helpful as well.

i hope this helps you. i do wish to keep talking, but right now i feel so very bad.. it will be intermittent.

[MissCharlotte]

Oh Gerber,

Your letter is beautiful.

(((((safehugs)))))

[RiverX]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Something has sort of caved in on me in my spirit and i feel so very very sad.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Yeah, yeah, THAT is just how it was/ is for me.
I feel like I so much want to protect you........... because I couldnt protect myself at the time. Just like you said: </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
learning to stand your ground is important but a catch 22, as if you knew how you wouldn't need therapy as much

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Hey, why am I telling you to do what I couldnt do???

I went in open and needing and longing, and trusting.
And then these things happen, and the betrayal bond kicks in, that is, it gets more itense and I keep trying to go back and 'firefight' very accurate way to put it, feelings mounting, needs mounting, I was going back to firefight, each time losing a bit more of myself, like a heamorrhage, and the 'other', the T gets even more powerful and etc.

Do you think maybe your T. is 'misattuned' to how deep and how important some things are? and I dont mean how important they are to you, I mean actually IMPORTANT?

Gosh, I know that feeling of depletion............. it worries me because so much of what you are bringing is really valuabe stuff, I am sure because of the emotions you are having. It feels like heamorrhaging value when you take it to someone who isnt responding in a way to contain the seriousness.
I'm sorry if I sound too negative and frighten you when you need strengthening, but ................ I feel there must be a better way.

What you said:
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
write down things like rescheduled appointments need to be in advance if at all possible, set firm goals that aren't moved on you... and so on. What sets you off about what they do is as informative about you as it is about them as well.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
yes, that exactly what I've been doing, and I've learnt alot about myself and deep damage that I carry and need to deal with. I think, as you suggest, I also am learning what I need and perhaps to insist on it. And if I cant get it, to leave without betraying myself.
But whats happened to me now is that instead of wanting a good therapist I want to go into one of those offices and

until I feel I have stood my ground. I know thats not the way therapy is meant to be, but thats the way the universe has been handing it to to me??

I understand about how you feel and how sad, I can so understand it. I worry about being too needy and being unhelpful and putting on pressure or something............
god what a mess!!

And all that said, I loved my T. and in some way still have faith it can be resolved and sorted out and healed.
thanks for listening, I want to be helpful and I probably just end up being needy.
But I'll let you know how it goes, I feel nearly ready to go back in fact I did pick up the phone ...............

lots of warm wishes to you,............... talk again maybe, when you feel like it.
ps, I think talking here has been saner and honester than the therapy.............
riverx

> he can't promise to never do anything which might make me anxious... but that wasn't quite the promise he made. He said he wouldn't do anything to deliberately produce anxiety, ie anxiety for anxiety's sake. He had said he would not evoke anxiety deliberately... which is not the same. Lots of things would produce anxiety as you said, and lots of them would be intentional acts, but not acts intended to produce anxiety.... does that make sense?

no. i don't really understand. do you mean that you think he did what he did solely for the purpose of producing anxiety for anxieties sake? he just... i dunno... enjoys making you feel anxious? gets a kick out of it? does it just because he can? is that what you think? it wasn't that he was trying to show you that you CAN cope with a little anxiety after all? it wasn't that he was trying to help?

sure it misfired. because of how very intense your anxiety was. and because... you don't trust him not to be malevolent, i guess. s'ok. i'm not sure how much i trust mine, either.

can you get into a DBT program at all, do you think?

i don't think he did it for kicks... he wanted to discourage me from needing him to reassure me that "we" were ok. But he said himself that when he decided to do it he knew it would make me anxious. *That* part was going against his promise. He made a decision, a plan of action which he knew would result in anxiety and that was it's purpose... to make me anxious. It was meant to be constructive, but he left out the part in which he made the joint decision, or prepared me for how to deal with it.

So, his intentions were good and were aimed at my long term benefit, but that makes no sense without showing me skills first. i had no idea how to deal with it... how to reassure myself... and i have a history of SI and other destructive behaviours... then when i found out why he had done this... the deliberateness and then the feelings of betrayal... no skills to deal with this... no skills to cope. i ended up hurting myself and spiraling into a very bad state.

Not calling me back felt bad.. and i was not prepared or able to reassure myself, but the reasons he chose feel like betrayal. He was supposed to make joint decisions and he should have taught me ways to cope on my own. My history of trying tcope on my own with those issues is not great.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Do you think maybe your T. is 'misattuned' to how deep and how important some things are? and I dont mean how important they are to you, I mean actually IMPORTANT?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

i don't understand what you mean by this... can you explain?

try reading about schema therapy... not that it would be the best choice for you, i don't know, but it might help you figure out some of your own patterns. i have found the reading quite enlightening and somewhat depressing as i realize the things i do to sabotage myself.

what type of T's were you seeing? It might be a matter of the wrong approach for you as well.

i don't mind talking some... but i find it hard to make my thoughts cohesive.

Hey. Thanks for explaining a bit more. I think I have a better understanding of the situation now.

So... He did it with good intentions. He thought that you would get through the week okay. He thought that if he didn't reassure you then you would reassure yourself and realise that you could reassure yourself and so... That would help you some.

But he misjudged how anxious you would feel. And he misjudged your ability to cope with that. And so... You ended up being retraumatised. Which isn't your fault, of course. But that is what happened.

> But he said himself that when he decided to do it he knew it would make me anxious.

I guess there are degrees of anxiety. I don't think he knew how much anxiety you would feel.

I guess that was why I wondered about DBT. Because one thing DBT is supposed to give you is some ability to self-soothe through hard times.

i am pretty certain there isn't any DBT here... there doesn't seem to be anything other than straight vanilla CBT here.

you're right, i am pretty certain he didn't bank on how upset i was going to be .... esp when i found out why he hadn't called. Feeling betrayed is a big trigger for me and he knws that... and being a schema T he knows the issues behind emotional deprivation... it just doesn't make sense.

when he explained his rationale to me i could see he was visibly surprised by my rxn. He also said later that one good thing was that he got to see just how deep this runs for me.

Have you asked about DBT?

Optimal frustration is when the therapist isn't able to meet some need that you have. The idea is that when the therapist isn't there to meet the need then the person finds themself meeting their own need. That results in strengthening of the ego / self.

But that didn't happen. Because (as you said) you aren't able to deal with frustrations. But I guess he is going to have to figure something out. Because he isn't perfect. Because he will burn out if every time he is imperfect you go on to hurt yourself. So I guess it is back to figuring out self soothing and emotion regulation and alternatives to self harm.

That is why I suggested DBT. Skills skills skills...

[RiverX]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Do you think maybe your T. is 'misattuned' to how deep and how important some things are? and I dont mean how important they are to you, I mean actually IMPORTANT?

i don't understand what you mean by this... can you explain?


</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I cant find the words myself at the minute. But I hope the words will be found. ..........in time..............

riverx

If i were more susceptible it might be triggering to worry about my problems causing him to burn out. i don't expect him to be perfect, and i don't self harm every time he isn't.

Hope you are doing well.

hey there. i didn't intend for you to be triggered by my suggesting that your response to anxiety might result in him burning out. i was trying to convey that your response to anxiety might well indicate that you need to develop some self-soothing skills such that you can keep yourself safe in triggering situations. i guess that that is something that he has learned from this situation too. when he said that he didn't think that his failure to return a call would result in unbearable anxiety.

have you heard of DBT at all? the dbt skills training is focused around helping people develop skills of mindfulness meditation / self soothing, emotion regulation, and interpersonal effectiveness. while DBT skills are traditionally taught in a group therapy setting one can learn them in individual therapy and / or by oneself. has he talked about contracting not to self harm at all?

i have heard of it but barely.... i can ask about it. We did talk a lot today about plans, lists and so on... but i am frustrated with the way the conversation is going. i see what he wants from me, but i want baby steps and it upsets me that i have to keep saynig that... i feel like i am not doing enough and he is unhappy. He says he isn't but then later it will happen again.

what does it mean? DBT i mean...

i am terribly sensitive to abandonment alex. Then that becomes a cycle of terror and feeling tupid for being afraid.

i would never go along with a contract for SI or for suicide. i had been doing really well, it happened this time because all my mechanisms were overwhelmed and because i was afraid i couldn't rely on him or turn to him. Now that we have talked it out i know i can call him if my own efforts are failing.

a contract would add to the anxiety when i would already be feeling trapped, that would worsen things. What prevents SI for me is having a safe and secure alternative. Until i can do it myself i need him for some of that. That would be enough for most times it ever occurs to me. i actually went 10yrs without any self harm... i can get back there, but he has to be willing to step slowly along with me.