In Session Today : Part III

Hm, another good point. I assume you mean if I (or another client) gets upset and freaks out in some way at MC (or other T), then he "rewards" that by giving me the reassurance I'm seeking. In other words, if the way to get want I want is to say, "I'm freaking out! Please just tell me everything is OK!" and he responds by saying, "Yes, of course it's OK," then that teaches me to freak out to get what I want from him...

Sort of like if a kid only gets a parent's attention for acting out, then they'll keep acting that way just so they can get the attention.

Exactomundo

Last session it felt like she was giving up on me. She said she felt stuck, and wasn't sure I was getting my moneys worth or something along that line. She didn't say it directly, but basically I haven't made any progress.

I don't think I could like anyone more than I like her, and after my first therapist I'm not willing to risk another bad experience with one.
I feel kinda like therapy isn't for me and maybe I'm untreatable. Or that it will be a huge exhausting task to find another one and I'm not sure I'd make it that far. I feel like I'd just start building more barriers because of failing in therapy.

Been going through a lot of stuff about the idea of T dying. And how I wouldn't feel entitled to grieve, how I wouldn't know what he died from, or go to his funeral, or know where he's buried. And how I think grieving someone is part of loving them. So if I'm not entitled to grieve him I don't feel entitled to love him.
This relates directly to an ex I had who I found out this year had died. I didn't feel entitled to grieve for him or go to his funeral, and I don't know his resting place. So I feel I am not entitled to the grief = love.
In a rather more complex way it relates to my deceased mother. T suggested this is the deepest wound. I didn't feel entitled to her love when she was alive, because she gave it to me so inconsistently. So I didn't feel entitled to the grief either. So when she died I felt nothing. I think the key to moving past her death (which I totally haven't) is to try to remember what it was like to feel entitled to love her. Before I realised it hurt too much to love her. When I was little. That's hard. But that's what has emerged from all of this.
At the start of the session I said I felt angry at him for letting me love him. I don't feel that now.

I met with my t. We walked and discussed my depression and sui thoughts as well as sleep issues and bad dreams and my thought disorder problems

T forced me to text my former roommate to plan a time to hang out

So yeh I did that

(((Runcible))) interesting thoughts, that you must love in order to be entitled to grieve. Cuz i dont grieve much, and that kinda worries me. This helps me understand why. Thanks.

I'm sure lots of people wouldn't link grief and love like this, but it's just the way I'm looking at things and it seems to make sense of why I feel the way I do. Hugs.

His comment sounds like he really cares about you and wants to reach you. I was touched by the kind of tenderness in his comment. I dont think he would project his feeling on to you , or worry you felt lonely if he himself felt that way . They are really trained not to make those mistakes. It seems like he was experimenting with reaching you, hoping to test how you did feel.

I had one of those rather nasty epiphanies last week, that some things in my teenaged years that I thought were fine, were actually very, very far from fine. I was in emotional turmoil all week and went in today and expressed anger and disgust and sadness and irritation with myself. I felt very clingy and started crying with 15 minutes left for no other reason than that the session would end in 15 minutes. On top of that, tomorrow he's going on some four day meditation retreat where he will be without any electronics -- which I found out during session! -- so I know I can't email him. Even though I most likely would not have, the fact that I can't makes the clingy feelings much worse.

What I do know though is that I always feel really attached when something important is surfacing and being dealt with. I've been through it before, and it's easier to deal with because I can think "Okay, this sucks, but good work! This must be incredibly important stuff!" I know from experience that I will discuss this topic a few more times and the clinginess will fade, and that also makes it easier, knowing it's (at least partially) just temporary.

This feels like a particularly strong round of childlike attachment though. Maybe it gets stronger with each time it happens because I've been seeing him longer. Or maybe it's just that I admit it (even to him today) and don't repress the feelings.

I'm so tired of feeling so reactive. T told me last week that I was neurotic. When he adds another title to the mix, it scares me. He said I am agreeable and that I don't have the disagreeable part. I also don't have the extroversion part, not at all. I call it being pasive, but I like agreeable more.

A few weeks ago my H and I were going out to dinner. He said, Where do you want to go to this place or that place? I told him that it didn't matter. He told me that I needed to tell him what I want instead of being so passive. The thing is, I really didn't have a preference. I don't always have preferences, sometimes I like what either restaurant has to offer. People like the agreeable trait in me, but I'm not so sure that it is such a wonderful trait. It helps me stay under the radar from others' anger. Plus, it strengthens relationships, which leads to fewer negative interactions.

I feel like I am being negative/disagreeable now at work. PRevious T would more than likely label me as being disagreeable. And he'd agree with the negative part.

I texted T to ask for an extra appt. Cue the crickets. . .I am so tired of myself. I wish I could take a vacation away from me.

Hi Anastasia~ ,

I am so sorry for what you are going through .

Just my own view , forget about labels , there are all ready too many.

We are people , sometimes we hurt , we are no different than anyone else in the long run.
The part the separates us is WE decided to get help. There is nothing wrong with that , at least not in my book !!

Be well , PM if you need someone to talk to.

Take care , later

Keyplayer. 

Intense is not the word for today’s session. I chickened out of mentioning the email, but ended up talking about most of the stuff therein.
“This week has been tough. I dared for a moment to think things might be different, but they’re just the same.”
Thankfully, both of our colds are on the retreat. To my great surprise, she gave me a Christmas card when she arrived today.
“It begins… ‘She called me into the bathroom to help with something, and…’”
‘Take your time, Lost. I can feel you are trying to go somewhere and you really want me to understand that is where it starts for you.’
‘She called me into the bathroom to help with something and collapsed.’
There was a silence ‘The tension at the moment is between forced and complicit.’
‘Can you help me understand a bit more?’
‘I was subjected to information I didn’t want, but at no point did I stop and say “I’m sorry, I can’t handle this.” I hate making comparisons, but the two experiences were so different.’
‘It sounds as though there is a conflict between two parts of you. If you could speak to that part of you, what would you say?’

‘The part that believes I was complicit?’

‘Yes.’

‘I would say that I accept you did the best you could at the time and I…’

I was struggling at this point to say ‘I forgive you,’ so I settled for ‘Though I cannot forgive you yet, I accept you.’

More silence, and then ‘The nights are still so hard. I get a couple of hours’ rest, but only after I have replayed it from all angles.’

‘It sounds exhausting to have to go through all that just to get some rest.’
‘She called me into the bathroom to help with something and collapsed.’

‘I can really feel you trying to go somewhere, and I can feel how difficult it is. I’m with you, and I will be with you wherever, even if we need to go somewhere else. You were somewhere then, and now you have come back.’
It gets a bit disjointed here, but I was talking about how I can tell people I am having trouble sleeping, but I can’t talk about the specifics with just anyone. We had talked earlier about how I accept that I have the coping skills, but it’s one thing to have them and another to use them.
I was talking about how I can tell people I am having trouble sleeping, but I can’t talk about the specifics with just anyone, ‘because I don’t feel able to provide support to anyone whilst dealing with my own stuff and needing support.’
R made a great point about how it is near impossible to have a supportive relationship with someone if you are secretly supporting them.
The session got messy then, because my mum needed to look for something in her office area. R wrapped up and asked how I was feeling. I smushed a few words together and fell over myself in the process before telling her that I felt strong…’which I think is a new word for these sessions.’
‘I was just about to say…It makes me feel warm to hear that you feel strong. Hang on to that.’

Last session of the year next week…feels a little ‘Speak now or forever hold your peace.’

T yesterday. Here's Part 1--amusing beginning, then followup to Monday's emergency session to deal with fallout of my rupture with MC during a Sunday phone call):

Very cold outside, so had my winter hat with a big faux fur pompom on it in sticking out of my purse. As we were walking back, T asked, "Do you have an animal in there?" I laughed and said just my hat...but that I used to have guinea pigs and I could have fit one of those in there. He said, "That could be one of them, you don't know." "Oh no, this is faux fur! Vegetarian here! Plus, I admit the ashes of my last two guinea pigs are in boxes in my closet." "Wow, you really do get attached to things..." Me: Well, one of them we had for like 7 years...

I said I had something to give him but felt awkward about it. Was typed note saying how I was just needing support right now about MC thing, how last session (Monday, which I didn't post here), he'd talked a lot about how things may have felt from MC's perspective, but that wasn't what I needed right then. So for right now, could he focus on supporting me?

When he finished reading note, I said I felt awkward because it probably seemed like I was trying to dictate the session. He said, "Well, you kind of are, but that's OK." He said he was sorry if he missed the mark last session. But that his perspective then--and really at all times, not just with me, but with all his clients--is to focus on what the client can control, not what they can't. Which is maybe more like 50%. And that's what he'd been trying to do. I said I understood that and generally appreciate that perspective of his, but it wasn't what I needed Monday, when I was feeling really raw about MC stuff.

I said it felt like he was more considering how he would have felt if he'd received an e-mail (the love one, plus the follow-up stuff) like I'd sent MC. He said he kind of was...and was trying to get me to think of how MC might have reacted to that, both as a therapist and as a person. I said I had kind of been in a bit of a self-blame spiral, and his talking about that--he'd kept asking me how I would expect MC to react to receiving e-mail--it had made me feel like I was entirely to blame. Like, of course MC would have reacted the way he did.

T said he was sorry, that he hadn't intended to suggest he put all the blame on me. But he said he hadn't gotten the sense on Monday that I was blaming myself so much as blaming MC. I said maybe I had hidden it well, but the feelings were there, the feeling like it was all my fault...He seemed empathic and that he felt bad about if he'd contributed to that. He asked what exactly I'd wanted to talk about related to MC. I'll go into that in next post (I realize much of this is probably confusing without knowing details from phone call or Monday's emergency session with T or regular session with MC--maybe I'll type those up at some point, or at least a brief overview...)

To be continued in another post...

Thank you for getting me in to an extra appointment. I feel like I resolved my issue and I feel so much better. H and I are actively working on making things better so I will be seeking your advice. I haven't become complacent, I am continuing to work hard in and out of therapy.

You kept looking at your watch, It made me lose my thought. I should have told you how it made me feel, but telling you about it would make me feel unappreciative. Again, I don't want to feel this way. Why is everything with me so difficult?

I feel good but worry I'm a bit paranoid. I am saying things and then am thinking I am talking in "multiple meanings." This worries me.

I think I need to backtrack a bit and write about some of the stuff that happened with MC Sunday (and maybe session Monday). Just to get it out. And so maybe it's more clear why I'm so hurt and angry right now...

So, background. I think I posted the sappy "I love you" e-mail that I'd sent MC after the concert last Tues. night. He'd responded Wed. the way I requested, that "of course it's OK," adding that he thought it was "not trivial," and I should discuss it, either with him or with T. I replied Wed. saying I'd like to discuss with both of them, and any chance of setting up a phone call with MC in the next week or two (we've talked on phone numerous times before, including a week or two before). No response. Friday, I e-mailed, "Or I guess we could discuss in session, but nervous about it." No response.

I really wanted to know if he was going to bring it up in session because if so, I wanted to talk to H about it first. If not, I wanted to talk to my T about it (in session Tuesday) to figure out what was up with it, then talk to H. So, because no response...text exchange:

Sat: Me: Worried about session Monday, like if we’ll have to talk about my e-mail and how that will go (I haven’t managed to share it with H). --LT

Sun.: Me: Could you at the very least let me know if you’ll bring it up or leave it up to me to decide?

MC: LT, It is entirely up to you what you would like to bring up in session. I will not bring it up myself. I also agree with your inclination that you and I should not address this ourselves individually. That would be for you and and T. If and when you would like, we could discuss it in a couples session with H.

Me: Thanks--actually my inclination was that I wanted to talk about it with you individually, on the phone at some point (even if not for a week or more from now)--I’d requested that in my initial e-mail.

MC: It would probably be better for you to discuss it with T if you want to talk about it individually, and for me to be clean and consistent about my role as the couples therapist.

Me: So suddenly you’re calling that into play? Why do you always get so weird with me if I mention that word...? Like, I’m feeling particularly vulnerable, so now you suddenly block me out.

Me: The other week, it was OK for you to call me (when I hadn’t requested that) in response to an e-mail where I was upset with you about how you were handling stuff with me and H. And now this is something directly related to my relationship with you, and suddenly that’s not OK?

MC called a second later and said, "I only have 2 minutes, and I'm going to do nearly all of the talking." Which...I was not OK with, because it felt like a decree. Much of the call, which ended up lasting 20 minutes, is a blur. But here's a few things I remember.

He started by talking about how he's trying to be consistent with holding the marriage counseling boundaries, which is why he didn't think he should talk to me individually about the e-mail. Of course, I had to call him on the fact that he has very much NOT been consistent in holding the boundaries. He was trying to deny that he hadn't been more lenient with them in the past. Which is total BS, as we've had numerous phone calls and e-mail exchanges that mostly focused on my transference issues. I finally said, "You've been wildly inconsistent with me," which of course he tried to deny...

He said in past, if we'd talked, was in preparation to talk to H about something. I said that's what I had been thinking here, too, that I wasn't going to not tell H--just wanted to talk to him briefly first, to kind of figure out what was going on in my head. He responded, "Oh." He said how he was trying to enforce the marriage counseling boundaries, how he was trying to be ethical about that. I said, "So, even if doing that is hurting me? Does that matter to you?" Don't think he answered that.

I said how he always seemed to get weird with me after I'd shared love feelings, like after I was vulnerable with him. He said it was different this time. I asked what he meant, saying I'd shared similar things before (the "I love you" stuff, though it had been over a year). He didn't seem to want to answer. I said it's not fair for him to not say why it's different. He finally said he thought the other times were paternal, but this was different. I said it wasn't, how in a (brief) e-mail the next morning, I'd clarified it was platonic. He was like, "Oh."

He said that with him thinking that, I had to understand why his having an individual session with me would have been unethical. I said I wasn't requesting an individual session--that I knew better than to ask for that. I had just been asking for a phone call. He said again he thought I'd been asking for a session, and I said no, that I'd very clearly said "phone call" in both the e-mail and text. He was silent and breathing really weirdly, like he was trying to keep control of himself. Actually, he was breathing that way much of the call.

Exchanged a few words--I was sobbing by this point, and had to think he was aware of that--then he said, "Also, you need to cut back on the outside contact." I was like, "What?" "You need to cut back on it. Now, I know what you're going to say later. I'm not saying you can't text me ever. Just not so much." Me: 'Oh so you're doing this now, right after I was vulnerable to you?" "I'm not cutting you off entirely, just saying you have to cut back. I'm not abandoning you." He said something about the whole boundaries thing. I said, "Do you realize how much this is hurting me, to do this now?" I don't know what he said to that.

Shortly after that, we got off the phone, and I curled up in a ball, sobbing.

@LT, sorry if I'm overstepping here, I'm pretty new, so may be completely clueless. I've just noticed that it seems like this whole MC debacle is a constant source of distress for you - it seems really exhausting. I guess I was just wondering why you and H continue to see him. I realize breaking contact would be really painful, but the continued contact honestly doesn't seem to be doing you any good. I'm not sure attempting to work through the issue with him still in the picture is in your best interests. Also, he is right that it's not a good idea for you two to talk about the transference issue alone. Tbh, that email put him in a sticky spot because he shouldn't be privy to secrets from your husband, let alone ones involving him. Regardless of his past behavior, it's not ethical for him as the marriage counselor to be having all this contact with you without your husband, especially if it involves talking about the transference issue. About what you said about him responding in this way to your vulnerability, I might be wrong, but it seems to me that you chose to be vulnerable in a way that was not being asked for and that you knew was inappropriate. Do you think it's possible you intentionally crossed the boundary because you wanted an excuse for more contact? That would be understandable, but again, I think continuing to have any contact with MC is not helpful to you.

Sorry if that came across really harsh... I do feel a lot of sympathy for you, it's just hard for me to understand how things can be resolved when what you seem to desire is more contact and more connection with him.

It's OK--believe me, you're far from the first who has said that. You're fairly new to PC, but this has been a recurring theme over the past year or two. There have been times when he's helped H and I and where he's helped me individually--mainly within the couples sessions--immensely, like with great insights into me and how my brain operates. I had this feeling that he understood me more than anyone ever had in my life. And he's been there for me with support, too. I went through a crisis nearly 2 years ago and he was really there for me--probably helped keep me alive.

It's just really confusing, because he can be caring and insightful and supportive...but then his boundaries are really fuzzy and inconsistent, which can be terribly confusing. Nearly everything I bring up with him individually, I also share with H--like sharing e-mails with him (including the most recent ones), giving recaps of phone calls. I think H accepts how important of a person he is to me. He's been generally supportive--when I first realized the transference (like 2 years ago), I asked if he wanted to stop seeing him, and he said no. I've asked him that other times, too.

The transference is mostly paternal--which is part of what gives MC so much power over me (because it brings out the childhood needs and desires). I think part of why I stayed for so long is that MC has said that working through transference (rather than walking away) can help to rewrite stories from my past. And I've read stuff online that says, if you don't resolve transference with one person, you're just going to shift it to someone else. So I bought into that. Part of me kept feeling like, I've invested so much, I want to see this through.

And there have definitely been some shifts in me. A year ago, I never could have said the things I did to him on the phone/via text/in session Monday. I'm standing up to him and asserting myself, which I think is important. I'm not seeing him as this perfect father figure (it's helped that he's shared lots of ways that he hasn't been so great as a father).

But now...I feel kind of different about things. I'm not sure if it's because of what MC said to me in this instance, how it really hurt me, like maybe I can't completely forgive that. Maybe it's him showing his true colors, how he really feels about me. And I'm like 99.9% sure there's some countertransference going on--paternal, possibly something else, maybe I remind him of his sister or ex or something--that plays into why he can be so connected with me, then pulls back.

But anyway--I wonder if part of the shift, at least in the past few months--have been from seeing a new T. I'd been seeing ex-T (female who worked in same practice as MC and referred us to him) for 6 years. She didn't seem to be helping me work through the MC transference, and I felt I'd hit a plateau with her in general (like I'd gone as far as I could with her, and she was never the best fit). Plus, she would make judgmental comments amount MC, which didn't help things... I started seeing a new male T 3 months ago, who just has a different approach to therapy. He also has very clear-cut boundaries in general (MC discloses an excessive amount about himself and his life, while T shares very little) and set policies around outside contact (charges for e-mails/calls over certain length, would rather schedule extra session if more contact needed, which I've done a couple times) and I'm realizing the value in that. I feel safer with him. I don't have that same insecure attachment and neediness going on--it's much more secure, even though I've only been seeing him 3 months. I don't think I really feel safe with MC anymore...

I think it may be time to walk away soon--I'm not sure it's possible to work through things at this point. But I want to assert myself. I don't want to feel like the weak, needy person who became so attached to him, like it was all my fault. He contributed a huge part to this. I doubt he'll recognize or admit to that, but I need to leave not because I'm running away, but because I'm asserting myself. Because I'm not the same person I used to be. I'm hoping T can help me with that...he's helping me feel stronger (and no, I don't feel like I'm just shifting the transference to him--the relationship feels very different, and we've already talked about my fears of becoming overly attached).

Edited to add: I know this is already ridiculously long, but wanted to comment on what you'd said about it just being exhausting and not helpful--that's actually something that came up with T yesterday. Like...part of why i started seeing him was that ex-T wasn't helping me deal with the MC transference (not the only reason--I have plenty of other issues!) But...if I'm getting therapy partly to deal with my therapy, then how does that make sense? MC does still help some with our marriage, including as recently as 2 weeks ago when he made some really helpful recommendations--though right now, it's probably just that we're bonded/united against him! So that's definitely something I'm considering. As I said to T, why am I paying someone to cause me pain?

@LT I'm glad to hear you're looking at the situation critically - and I understand what you're saying about needing to leave because you're asserting yourself, rather than running away. Two years is a long time to suffer like this, but it sounds like building a relationship with your new T has helped bring some clarity to the situation. I experienced a similar relationship more than ten years ago, and I can still vividly recall how painful it was... so seeing posts here from people struggling with their T's in this way really tugs at my heart. Thanks for not getting defensive with what I said, I was motivated by understanding the confusion and hurt that this causes you rather than judgement.

LT, maybe if he was your individual T, working through it would work like you said. But as he is your MC and he really should (and always should have) keep mc-boundaries, I don't think the working through it with him really is an option. Use your T, he sounds great!

Thanks, FF. Actually, now that I think about it (looking at my PC join date, Feb. 2015, since I joined to deal with transference stuff), it's been more like 3 years...As it sounds like you understand, it can just be so confusing because there's so much warmth and caring and acceptance that I'm looking for from him...but then it's within not only the bounds of a therapeutic relationship, but also marriage counseling. So much of it has been him talking about how healing working through transference can be--saying I should stay because then I can see that he's not abandoning me. It's like he's keeping me hooked, almost like an addiction. Sort of like, "You need to stay here with me to get better, to overcome the issues that led to the transference. If you leave, you're losing your big chance to work through this stuff from your past." (I'm sure he would disagree, but that's what it feels like...)

Well, it won't be healing if it's not a healthy relationship. Maybe there's just too much baggage at this point? I do think it can be healing to work through transference, but the circumstances have to be right. It definitely shouldn't take years, and I think MC has been irresponsible in allowing the situation to continue this long. To be honest, it doesn't sound like he knows what he's doing. He's failing you by prolonging the situation when he doesn't really know what to do. Meanwhile, you suffer. If he's saying things to make you feel like the only person who can help you with this issue is him, that's incredibly manipulative and unprofessional. You have to remember that you're the one living with all this emotional suffering, not him. I suspect he doesn't want to see you leave because he's come to see this situation as a test of his professional capabilities. I don't think he has the objectivity to evaluate the situation and advise you on it. Have you asked your T if he thinks continuing the relationship is best for you? I wonder if he agrees with MC that what's going on has therapeutic value, or if he sees things differently.

Saw T. Words fell out of my mouth. I don't know how. I didn't mean for it to happen. I listened to myself and was horrified. Then I lost myself at the end and have no idea what I said. Hopefully, I didn't make a scene.

At T1 today, he said something about a little corner restaurant near his office that has been there less than a year. I mentioned that they are doing a "Turkish Experience" (they are from Turkey, but the restaurant normally has normal midwestern fare on the menu) tomorrow night and that H and I are going. He said he was going also. Hm.

It's not that weird, I guess. After I had been seeing T1 for 8 or 9 years, H got a job which includes a house in a small town 4 miles from T1's office. And then T1 moved to the same town. So now he drives past my house regularly on his way to his second office. At least he does if he takes the most direct route. So we're in the same community (population 1400) and it was bound to happen. My first thought was "I hope he doesn't think I am stalking him". But I'm not and he is cool with it. I didn't really think that he was the kind of person who would want to go eat Turkish food.

I told him he can say hi to me (he has said in the past that he doesn't acknowledge clients in public unless they initiate it). It was interesting to hear him say that he could tell people that he knows us through H's work. He said that he has sometimes been caught unprepared when a companion will ask how he knows somebody. He doesn't like to lie, but he also figures that it is not cool to say that they are clients. I hadn't thought about not wanting to lie to a companion as being a reason that a T wouldn't say hi in public. Interesting.

I wondered about that, kecanoe, because my therapist gave me the line about not acknowledging me unless I do so first. I asked her if she was ashamed of the work she does. I didn't think about her being with someone and they asked where she knew so and so, what to say. I think unless they work in a house, they could say they know so and so from the office building or something. That would not be a lie. It wouldn't be hard for my therapist since she has worked in large buildings in a moderately sized city, but maybe not so easy if you live in a small town.

And yet No. 3’s policy was apparently to wave to every client she ran into, be it on the street or in a gym locker room, and she seemed deeply puzzled and somewhat offended when I asked her to follow my lead if we ran into each other in public.

But then it was No. 3.