emotionally withdrawing

Our sessions have been pretty interrupted lately, and I can feel myself emotionally withdrawing. He was sick for a couple weeks then I was away for a couple weeks. We had two sessions then he took a couple weeks off. We will have a few weeks of sessions then I'm off for a month.

Our first session back (where we had two before he took two weeks off) was kind of light. I told him about how things were for me going back home for a while. Things went really well. Had a terrific time. If I had a complaint it would be that I didn't go back for longer. Our second session back he started off by launching into this 'I guess it is hard to know what to talk about' speel. Basically consisted in 'it would be so much easier to just keep things light and superficial and not do any real work'. That pissed me off a little, but I wasn't really sure why.

He said (made it sound like he was offering me something AMAZING) that I could send him two emails while he had his two weeks off. I didn't look ecstatic and he seemed a little disappointed in that. He never limited emails before - and I haven't been inundating him with them so I don't really see a need for him to impose limits now. I guess he was making an implicit promise 'and i will respond to two emails'. But I've told him off before about not making promises he can't / won't keep. And basically... We have been here before with respect to emails. He said... 'You don't know if you will email me, do you'. And I just shrugged my shoulders. I don't think he sees how much he burned me with that already.

I have spilled my guts to him via email. Really told him some stuff that was hard. And he either doesn't respond or he responds with something like 'looking forward to seeing you in our next session' and that is all. Not adequate really. Not for the kinds of self disclosures I've made.

I'm pissed off about his saying that stuff about keeping it light and superficial vs doing real work because I don't think that he should be judging what constitutes 'real work' vs 'light and superficial'. I don't think it matters WHAT I talk about. There is stuff everywhere, really. What matters is what we do with it.

What does he want me to do? Cry about how my mother abused me and my father abandoned me? Oh yeah, thats right, he does. Well %#@&#! that. That ain't helping me that is getting me caught in old cycles of ruminating. Why doesn't he trust me and work WITH me and simply value what I do offer him?

So... I'm emotionally withdrawing. 'Cept I got a bit upset last night. Started wanting to email him. 'Cept I won't. Because not emailing him is the only way to make him see that he %#@&#! up royally with respect to emailing me. He really did. And I'm not prepared to go there again because he sucks at emails and I have no reason to expect that he will all of a sudden have figured out how to do that.

Fed up.

Keeping it light before breaks is kind, so we aren't left an emotional wreck and without support at that time. Sounds like it isn't what he wants either and he's admitting it's hard for him.

About the 2 emails: that might not be about you really. It could be that others innundated him with emails so he set a boundary about that for himself and is applying it to everyone.

It sounds like the interruptions are making therapy difficult for now. It sounds like you want to be back into a routine with him and that you're missing him, maybe wishing he wasn't going off for 2 weeks. I hope when he's back and you and he get settled in that things will feel more comfortable for you.

{{AK}}

> Fed up.



Maybe being fed up can be productive...

oh Alex, i remember how upset you were about some emails. You're absolutely right to be angry about it. i know i would be very taken back by sudden imposition of limits that had never been needed before. WHenever T suggests that he doesn't want me to escalate a "clinging" behaviour now i call him on it... yes, i have had such behaviours but they have **never** escalated, they plateau and then fade.

but sometimes it's a routine for them, and they dont really stop and think - which they should, but i understand how repetitive patterns go. Of course, that hurts too because we then have to think about the fact that we aren't the only client or the only one which presents certain problems... maybe 7/10 clients need that limit. i am SURE he knows you and who you are, but maybe he just did what he does 7/10 times.

as far as the emails themselves? yeah, he sucks donkey butt.

wish it was better... do what is right for you..

I'm glad you could put this here alex.

You know how you were punishing yourself yesterday? Well to me this email thing sounds like more punishment, both directed at you plus him.

You know, you could email him, but with a different focus this time. Try something different. You're emotionally withdrawing. Why don't you use the email to try to connect to him? Connecting can hurt. But it could also be a healthy step forward.

I know you're real mad at him. Why don't you save your mad for your next session. Be mad to his face and get your response there and then. Then you'll have a chance to see that being mad is okay. It doesn't make you a bad person. You get mad in an email, you know he won't do emails good and it will once again be punishment for you and him.

Give him a chance to talk to your hurt part alex.

If it's still too risky, that's okay. You can talk to us here. We'll stay with you until you get to see him again.

Just try not to use the email, or lack of emailing, as a punishment on yourself.

Sending you warm thoughts.

hmm . thinking about this more.

you could email him the 2 times and like 15 pages each.

Seriously though, you know when i call T and once when I gave her some things i wrote, we didn't talk about all of it. Some, admittedly I can't remember. But she did say that the phone calls are times when I can say things that are too hard to say in session so I believe she's fully aware of those things I said and wrote, but feels I'm not ready to talk about them unless I bring them up or we get to them in session. She wants the session to go in the direction I choose. She does not want to 'direct' the session and that would happen if she broght them up. I could say "let's talk about the phone call or the stuff I wrote" and she would then go from that point of me directing the session and talk about them. This has happened with a couple of the phone calls.

Just some thoughts.

I guess I feel like there is a different aspect to the online me than there is to the in person me. Emailing him is about sharing some of the online me. It is really important to me. And... He doesn't seem to know how to respond to emails. Really doesn't have the hang of it at all. I do believe he is trying... But he says things like 'I'm not sure what is needed' or 'I don't really know what to say'. It just... Isn't working out so well with the emails.

I don't think I have inundated him with them. Maybe some of them have been a bit long... I think it is more that he simply doesn't respond to most of them, though, and then I blew up at him about that. And so he promised that he would email me back. So I took another risk with emailing him. And then he didn't email me back. And last time I disclosed something to him by email he responded just to say 'I'm sick so I'll probably have to cancel tomorrow's session'. I feel like I've given him plenty of chances. And he has blown most of them. And when I'm feeling badly... If I don't get a helpful response then I just feel worse than if I hadn't emailed him at all. I know he is asking me for another chance. I guess I just don't think that he knows what to do with that chance.

I don't really like to talk about the stuff that I email in person. I don't expect that he knows what to make of that... He seemed to come to the view that it was better that I email him that stuff than not communicate it to him at all. But he still seems to view email communications as somehow second rate.

Sorting... Sorting the 'better' from the 'worse' forms of communication.
Sorting the 'light conversation' from the 'real work'.

Why can't he just see where things end up and leave it open? Why can't he just leave it open that something that HE thinks is light might actually be something that is significant and meaningful to me? Why can't he just leave it open that something that HE thinks is significant might actually be me putting on a performance to make him happy?

I do like him really. I'm just feeling... Frustrated.

I'm not sure about the self harm thing. Bob said it might be a form of self-harm, funnily enough. My posting on the boards while blocked. I thought it might be about taking some form of control. Like how my mother would blow up at some point most evenings. I could wait with trepidation... Or I could do something to trigger her off so I would be all prepared and so I'd get to relax after she had gone off and calmed down some. Better to be blocked for what I do understand then blocked out of the blue when I don't see it coming.

I guess I need to... Teach him how to email. Show him how. The trouble is that he isn't really giving me anything to work with.

He seems to think it is about compiling a letter-like response. And that is hard work, it surely is. He doesn't seem to see that you can

> quote a bit

And then just insert the odd remark. Typical therapist remarks like 'does that remind you of xxx' or 'that sounds like the time you did y'. or even 'I see what you are saying' or 'that must be hard'.

He doesn't seem to see that he can do that. Maybe if he got the hang of that then emails wouldn't seem so overwhelming.

I dunno. Just feel fed up sometimes.
I don't want him to be inadequate
But sometimes he does seem...
Bumbling
Oblivious
A little bit stupid.
Or something.

:-(

Or maybe that is me.
Maybe it is me who is feeling
bumbling
oblivious
a little bit stupid.

because i don't know how to show him some things...

i don't know how to show him that some of the stuff i email really is me pouring out my heart.

i don't know how to tell him that it is really important to me that he can respond to that in that medium.

i don't know how to tell him that i'm really trying to do the work in the best way that i know how.

i don't know how to tell him that i'm scared. that i'm doing my best. that i feel like he doesn't notice or care that i'm doing my best sometimes.

he just wants me to walk the established path.

talk about your past...

and then you will be cured.

and i...

need to walk my own path.
need to find the path that is right for me.
maybe i'm making things harder for myself.
maybe i am.
but it is what i need to do.

i miss bob.
sometimes...
i felt like he understood me
in a way that most people don't seem to
projection, maybe
but why can't i have that projection for my t?
maybe i want to turn my t into bob
with the emails
:-(

i don't feel so well

i read something yesterday that resonated with me. it was about how when clients finally start to talk about transference that is typically manifested in their talking about the transference that they experience with OTHER figures in their lives. their spouse or a friend or their boss or whatever.

that after some time... if it is received well... then the client can start to experience (and talk about) the transference that they experience with their therapist. but it typically has to go by way of the first. to kind of test the waters. to kind of see how the therapist responds to different aspects of that.

i guess bob is kind of my test case. he brought out some of the best of me... he brought out some of the worst of me. i know it isn't really about him, of course. he doesn't really feature anywhere in there at all. but what he symbolised for me... that... that is what brought out the best and the worst. and i try and talk to my t a little about how much bob meant to me.

and i think he responds with distaste. i know he responds by trying to change the topic. maybe he feels a little bit helpless. doesn't quite know what to say.

he doesn't need to say anything. just needs to shut the %#@&#! up and listen. maybe say the odd thing to convey non-judgement and empathy and understanding. just something to convey that he can handle that. something to convey he can hold that.

so when it starts to transfer to him (to my idea of him) i have some faith that he can handle it.

i think he wants to circumvent the first and get to the second.

he doesn't seem to understand the second can only come by way of the first.

> I dunno. Just feel fed up sometimes.
> I don't want him to be inadequate
> But sometimes he does seem...
> Bumbling
> Oblivious
> A little bit stupid.
> Or something.

I too am having to deal with a T who sometimes really seems (to me) not to know "wha's happenin'". I think he really does not. It is frightening to think that I am right, and that he does not. Why is it so frightening? Does he, like so many people, really not want to know? And if that is true, should I be frightened by that?

An example of one thing he does is: almost whenever I say something that he regards as "wrong," he tries to "correct" me. He cannot let it go, even temporarily. Here's a thing that prompts this kind of behavior by my T: when I make it plain how frightened I am of people in general. He seems to need to tell me that I have no need to be frightened. Am I then supposed not to be on my guard with anyone?

It appears to me that both my therapist and I am frightening each other by our fears!

I guess what he does is not necessarily, by itself, frightening. Maybe I am picking up a broadcast of fear and denial ("I don't want to know about it.") on his part, maybe I am just reacting to those in my past who did not want to know what was happening to me. And even if he is broadcasting such a thing, should that frighten me? Am I not separate from him? If he is afraid, why should that make me afraid? In fact it does; what he does and says makes me confused and I only later realize (I think) what has happened. He appears to be broadcasting a cloud of "right thinking" like a squid with a squirt of black "ink," in order to not get "punished" by those he sees as being "in control" -- the "big people." And he sees me as one of them.

And I get taken in by his actions. In fact he is broadcasting the cloud in order to confuse me (whom he sees as a threat) but since he can mostly only alter his own thinking, he also gets confused. He does not see himself doing that. That leaves both of us confused.

This reminds me of something that happened to me quite a few years ago. I was walking in a parklike area near where I lived, and a blue jay started squawking at me. It occurred to me how ineffective the blue jay's attempts at defense really were. What could a small bird do to a threatening predator of my size just by its small voice? Not much, really, if I, the predator, realized how small the bird really was. Its actions served more to address its emotional needs than to rectify the actual situation (if I had been a real threat).

I think I must have almost totally confused anyone reading this thread. Writing my thoughts down really helps me a lot!

If I could offer another suggestion, some T's don't "do" email very well, due to privacy concerns. As we all know, unless email is sent through an encryption of some type (does he have that service?) there is a chance confidentiality could be compromised. That's why they don't (usually) respond to them, or respond much, if they do. And most don't encourage sending personal info or something you'd talk about in session, by email. that's the way I've found it, anyway. Hope you are feeling better. I know it's hard.

alex, it sounds like your T is just not an "email guy," and you are going through a lot of angst continually wishing he was and trying to make him into something he is not. Everyone has limitations, even our T's, and they have different approaches. Your guy does not do email therapy, for whatever reasons he may have: just is not into this techie stuff, thinks it discourages clients from opening up in person, takes too much of his time outside of session, is worried about privacy concerns, etc. Who knows. He does face-to-face therapy. Can you take advantage of what he does offer instead of trying to change him and being frustrated when he does not send you the "perfect" email response?

My T definitely has his preferred modes of communication. He is not a "phone guy." I have learned not to call him because he does not respond at all or soon enough or whatever. It is just not "him." I also know that if he tells me in session that he will phone me later about something that he will not, so I don't get disappointed when he doesn't. But he is good face to face and very sweet and supportive when he responds to my infrequent, brief and to the point emails.

It is interesting that you say your face to face self is different than your email self. Can you try to lessen this dissonance and just be the "real alex_k" no matter what form of communication you are using? My T often talks of being authentic, bringing our outer self that we project to the world in synch with who we know ourselves to be "inside." Maybe your email dilemma is a little like that. Can you just be alex_k no matter if it is by email, phone, or in person? Then you won't feel such a loss at not being responded to by email, because you can address the same concerns in person.

a T I used to see did that with me, was unclear about emails and never responded. I played head games with myself and always, always, felt hurt and abandonned......shame, anger, and alone

with the T i am seeing now, I flat out asked her. "Can I email you some of my poetry or thoughts every now and then??" and we talked about it openlly. I said to her, "Just don't think I understand why you are doing this or that. Just keep me informed about why you didn't answer the email or tell me why you are setting this limit." It saves a huge amount of struggle in my mind and i feel like i'm not guessing at her motives. We even talked about what to do if she felt she was being emailed too much by me....I said, "Just talk to me. Tell me why and what you're thinking."
in the past 4 months i guess that i've seen her, i've emailed twice and we always talk about it in the next session. One of the things that helped me the most was to explain that I cannot handle any more mind games. Just tel me your motive and I will also explain mine. Just please don't leave me guessing. It justs adds more to the original problem i am seeking help for.

However, you can view it as some kind of self-protection and protection of you in a way from your T's point of view. Nothing is secure on the internet and some patients that are really troubled could turn around and use this against a T as far as confidentiality goes.....

It helps me the most to just put it out there. No more mind games. Just tell me what you are doing and why...and God willing, I will try my best to do the same.

Hope it's ok if I jump in here. I started e-mailing my T w/short thoughts or things I forgot soon after I started seeing him. It never occured to me to ask him if it was ok. He always answered, but in brief one or two sentence e-mails. I told him one time that my thoughts run differently when I type than at any other time. He just nodded.

Shortly after, we had a phone conversation (we have had only about 4 in a year) I told hime he sounded angry whenever I spoke w/him on the phone. He seemed surprised and apologetic. He said it wasn't true at all.

Recently, the phone thing happened again and I mentioned it again (in an e-mail). He said he has a very difficult time responding to clients when he doesn't have visulal cues. He mentioned that he has gotten scared of saying too much on the phone or e-mails. He's afraid that because he can't really "read" somebody completely that he tends to say very little and stay businesslike so he won't be misinterpreted. I guess I can understand that, however from this end it's tough. It did prompt me to ask him finally if e-mailing was ok. Duh!! Never occured to me it wouldn't be. He quietly said "yes" and I left it at that.

Suddenly I am wondering if men have more of a problem in this area than women. Or is it just therapists?

Maybe it is frightening to think that they don't understand because if they (a therapist) doesn't or can't then what hope is there for us being understood? Maybe... We simply aren't understandable after all...

> almost whenever I say something that he regards as "wrong," he tries to "correct" me. He cannot let it go, even temporarily.

That would hurt / annoy the hell out of me.

Especially when it comes to emotional responses. Sometimes our emotional responses are outside our cognitive control. You might well know (on a particular occasion) that people aren't trying to hurt you. Unfortunately, that often does little to alleviate ones fears.

Maybe... You are afraid of people and you are projecting your fear of yourself onto him a little (in thinking that he is afraid of you)? Just a thought...

> This reminds me of something that happened to me quite a few years ago. I was walking in a parklike area near where I lived, and a blue jay started squawking at me. It occurred to me how ineffective the blue jay's attempts at defense really were. What could a small bird do to a threatening predator of my size just by its small voice? Not much, really, if I, the predator, realized how small the bird really was. Its actions served more to address its emotional needs than to rectify the actual situation (if I had been a real threat).

Maybe... The Jay was distracting you from its nest?

Just a thought...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts :-)

Hey Winterbaby,

I know that my therapist isn't worried about privacy at all. In fact... I suggested that to him and he looked a little bit puzzled. He offered me his email address at some point. Actually, maybe I suggested that he email me instead of phoning me. I was sure to give him my anonymous internet account to send to - rather than my work email account. But still... All my internet access is via work, so I understand that it could be intercepted and read in principle. Though... I expect the technology support people have better things to be doing with their time (e.g., checking out all the porn that students have downloaded)

:-)

I am feeling better today, though. Thanks.

> alex, it sounds like your T is just not an "email guy,"

Sigh. I think you might be right. He had trouble with his emails and it took him about three months to get his router sorted out (or whatever). The fact that it took him three months to get his email access up and running again does kind of suggest that he doesn't email a lot, though, huh. I'd be going %#@&#! crazy if I couldn't access my emails for that long!

> and you are going through a lot of angst continually wishing he was and trying to make him into something he is not.

Well... I guess it remains to be seen whether he will turn out to be good via email or not. I know I was sounding pretty hopeless above... But he actually sent me quite a nice email last night :-) So... Now I'm feeling hopeful again. He has actually given me something to work with. Something that I can quote little bits from and respond to. We will see...

> Can you take advantage of what he does offer instead of trying to change him and being frustrated when he does not send you the "perfect" email response?

Ouch. I don't expect perfection. I do expect... Acknowledgement. Some kind of 'I hear what you are saying and appreciate that you are trying to tell me the hard stuff'. Thats all I require. I wouldn't have thought that was too much to ask...

But... I will have to see whether emails will work out or whether they won't work out. Part of my really wanting them to work out is that email will be the PERFECT way for us to stay in touch when I'm out of the country. Time difference (and expense) will probably make phone too hard. Email would be perfect... And if the time difference isn't too much... Possibly skype... But he might not be into all this that is true. And I will have to be accepting if he isn't. I think he is trying... Just a little bit hopeless.

Maybe I need to be gentler? I really was in a foul mood yesterday...

Feeling MUCH better today.

I got my new computer :-)
And I'm going to a party tonight which should be a lot of fun :-)
And therapist emailed me and said that he WAS committed to me - but that he had never emailed a client before and was having a bit of trouble figuring out what to say... That he doesn't do message boards and stuff, and he isn't sure what it is supposed to look like...

I wuv my t again
And the world

:-)

And especially... My new computer

:-)
:-)
:-)

> It is interesting that you say your face to face self is different than your email self. Can you try to lessen this dissonance and just be the "real alex_k" no matter what form of communication you are using?

I guess I think... That they are all legitimate aspects of me. It isn't that one is a facade or inauthentic or anything like that. It is just that they have different faucets / aspects to them. I guess that ideally some of their skills and abilities would generalize across settings. But it is hard stuff. I guess I'm trying to integrate via him. Via his getting to interact with the in person me and the work me and... the internet me. All the different aspects. Not many people in the world see more than one of those... Though the lines are blurry at times to be sure.

Part of it is about courage, I think. I can express anger / frustration etc better by email. I can get out the hard stuff better because he doesn't have to see me hanging my head in shame. I can think carefully to make sure I express myself clearly. The time delay is terrific for my impulsivity. There is a lot to like about emails...

Hey. A non-response is hard. Especially when you have really talked from the heart :-(

I'm glad that you feel you have a more up-front relationship with your current therapist. Can be hard to find someone who is up-front like that. It is a skill indeed. Saves a lot of grief, though.

Yeah, I guess there is a perminent record of email contact. Or at least, there could be. I guess some therapists might well feel uncomfortable with that.

Hey. Of course it is okay for you to jump in!

John Suler has some interesting stuff that is freely available online about the 'psychology of the internet'. One of the things that he says is that transference responses tend to be stronger when people have less cues. Some therapists try and limit the cues that patients get anyway (in order to facilitate transference) by encouraging the client to lie down (a form of sensory deprivation) and by not disclosing any personal information to the client (so the client can better project onto the therapist) etc.

With the phone... There are only audio cues. No postural cues. No smiling. That makes it more likely that the client will read their fears etc into the therapists response.

That is... One of the things that I really like about online therapy. I'd like to do couch work, too. Have suggested that to my therapist but he (strategically?) ignored me.

So.. Not sure that it is a guy thing. Might be a people thing...

Takes a bit of getting used to phone and / or email contact. I had a really good phone conversation with my t. I think we were both surprised about how well that went. It would be nice if he adapted to emails. But still, if he doesn't I really will try and be accepting.

hey alex

i know this is an old-hat sort of thing to say.... but how much of this thread to you feel comfortable giving to him. i think several of your posts and several repsonses bring up some important points in a very concise way. Maybe your limitations of client-T relationship/fear/transference/whatever prevent you from being as concise and clear with him... ?

sunrise has a good point about taking more advantage of what he is really good at vs trying to mold him into something else. i am facing that tto a degree... some things i want/need may have to be traded off for what i do get.

having said that...

i am so happy that today you are happy. HOORAH for new computer!!!!

> The Jay was distracting you from its nest?

Of course. It was trying. It struck me how ineffective that was for a knowledgeable predator.