[LonesomeTonight]

I saw Dr. T today (he was off yesterday, so just Tuesday and Friday this week), and I felt rather distanced from him. We were talking about all outside things--stuff with D and with H--nothing related to the therapeutic relationship. But usually I feel more connected when I'm talking about at least D stuff with him.

I'm wondering if it's that I don't feel really "safe" with him yet, that the rupture is still looming in the back of my mind, and we might need to discuss it more? It didn't help probably that today, something that came up with H involved concerns about his being irritated, so Dr. T was talking about that some. So it brought to mind what he'd (Dr. T) said to me recently.

I also wonder if it could be partly related to his looking at his phone right when I walked in and making a comment like, "Ugh, something else to figure out." And I said, "Everything OK?" He said something like, "You think you have something figure out, then another thing pops up." I said, "Scheduling thing? Never mind, I'll stop prying."

Would something like that bother you? It's not the first time he's reacted to something on his phone during session (not counting the wife call). Like he picks it up to do scheduling (at the end) or to look at the weather because of a comment I made (or look something up he's referencing), then reacts to presumably a text, saying, "I need to not look at my phone." (Though sometimes, it's a positive reaction, like, "Oh, good." But still, it's my session, and he's focusing on something/someone other than me.)

ETA: I guess I did feel fairly connected to him last Wednesday (Friday was just OK), but I've found with ruptures, right after the initial repair session(s), I tend to feel more connected, then I often pull back a bit, randomly or from something really minor that wouldn't have affected me under normal circumstances.

ETA2: OK, one last thing is that he was wearing shorts today, which he hasn't done in a while, so could that have somehow thrown me off? I don't know....

[ElectricManatee]

I wouldn't necessarily care about my T checking her phone before/after session or commenting on a text or whatever, but the vagueness would drive me crazy. Either explain (briefly!) or don't say anything.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I wouldn't necessarily care about my T checking her phone before/after session or commenting on a text or whatever, but the vagueness would drive me crazy. Either explain (briefly!) or don't say anything.

Thanks, EM--it helps to know the vagueness would bother you as well. Maybe that's more of what it is for me?

I mean, the vagueness has been a theme in my therapy lately, too--the sudden switch to virtual a couple weeks ago (that then led to my email related to the vagueness that led to rupture part 2), plus the reason he was out yesterday--which he told me about a couple weeks in advance, but he just said, "I have something in my schedule that I can't move." And I suppose the non-vagueness, but still session disruption, of his wife calling about the tornado warning and telling him to leave his office (I still never talked to him about that).

[ElectricManatee]

The vagueness would be out of character for my T, which would make it more perplexing or potentially worrying. I get the sense that you want to be closer to Dr. T than he allows or is comfortable with, so there's probably an element of that at play. You want to move closer, even possibly to be appropriately supportive about whatever the thing was (saying, "Oh, that's too bad" etc) and you know that you are likely to be rebuffed and/or feel rejected if you try.

[LostOnTheTrail]

Phones in therapy sessions would bother me, no question. I feel fortunate because R comes to my home, but I tend to leave my phone in another room when we have our sessions. She said something today, I can't remember the context...and then said she thought she'd left her phone in the car.

I was relieved, because even though she hasn't looked at her phone in a session with me before, it feels weird having a distraction present.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

The vagueness would be out of character for my T, which would make it more perplexing or potentially worrying. I get the sense that you want to be closer to Dr. T than he allows or is comfortable with, so there's probably an element of that at play. You want to move closer, even possibly to be appropriately supportive about whatever the thing was (saying, "Oh, that's too bad" etc) and you know that you are likely to be rebuffed and/or feel rejected if you try.

Yes, I imagine there's some of that at play. Even if it was something really minor like, "Oh, I was hoping we could get a reservation at x restaurant this weekend, and it didn't work out."

I'm quite emotional right now, but I think it's due to a comment he made regarding my D (and her assessments) near the end of session that we didn't have time to fully address. Where I was talking about how I was wondering about getting a second opinion from an outside (nonschool) psychologist regarding whether she had an intellectual disability. If I could just have them give this one particular test, instead of the full slate that would run $3,500 if we went private. And he said he doubted one would be willing to only do that test, that when he used to do assessments, he wouldn't have done it. And that I had all of the information, from the school tests, her teachers, and our experiences with her. Almost like, "Well, you have the facts, you just don't want to accept them." When I'm unsure if we have all the facts? Like if they're fully valid? (Sorry, this is getting rather in the weeds for this thread perhaps.)

And normally I'd be talking to him tomorrow (well, I wouldn't have talked to him today, but Monday) or else 2 days after we'd met, but with the schedule this week, I'm not seeing him until Friday. I did just now contact him to ask if he had anything sooner, but I don't know if that's bad that I did that. As I just did that a week ago? I suspect he made room for me then, but this is a different thing (he knew what that was about), and I didn't give a reason for it.

It's like in session, I held back any emotion until the end, then it came out a bit, but then I had to leave. Normally, I'd probably just email him, but with the recent conflicts, I feel I can't really do that unless it's truly urgent (by his definition, not mine).

Anyway, I'm rambling....

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by LostOnTheTrail

Phones in therapy sessions would bother me, no question. I feel fortunate because R comes to my home, but I tend to leave my phone in another room when we have our sessions. She said something today, I can't remember the context...and then said she thought she'd left her phone in the car.

I was relieved, because even though she hasn't looked at her phone in a session with me before, it feels weird having a distraction present.

Thanks, Lost--for some reason, I never realized R came to your home? (I'm actually not sure how I'd feel about that, a T coming to my home--virtual was enough!--but that's neither here nor there.) That would make it easier for you to put your phone elsewhere for sure. I wonder if she puts her phone on silent or keeps it in her purse for your sessions? If you've never heard it. Ex-T used to keep hers in her purse--there was one time it went off, and she apologized profusely, saying she'd had it on during her lunch break or something.

Meanwhile, Dr. T has his sitting on a table next to him. It's on silent, though. Ex-MC used to keep his in his pocket, not on silent, and would look at it whenever it went off, which really sucked!

[LostOnTheTrail]

I think she keeps it on vibrate, because I've heard it buzz a couple of times.
I have to settle for that, because it feels weird to 'dictate' what she does with her phone.
I could understand having a phone out on a table in case of possible emergency (especially from ex-MC's point of view) but having it in your eyeline is an invitation to a distraction...

[ScarletPimpernel]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks for sharing your experience. The ones that helped, were they the type where you did homework?


It occurs to me that I meant to ask Dr. T about this today (he was out yesterday, so just seeing him today and Friday) and forgot. Wanted to see if he had clients who had done them and if they'd helped.

Yep, we did homework every week. It wasn't difficult. Just figuring out how to put the skills we learned into practice.

[ScarletPimpernel]

LT, your relationship with Dr. T reminds me of the square peg in a round hole. Sometimes it fits and connects. But most of the time, it does not connect. And because it technically fits, you keep trying to make it work. And it is, with your D. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting the relationship to work especially since you are getting much needed and wanted support for your D. But for you, Dr. T doesn't seem to help with your issues. He seems to trigger you.

I feel for you, LT. I know you're trying your absolute best. That's why you even seek out support and opinions here. And I know what it's like to so desperately want a relationship to work, even a therapeutic one.

Please know this: I do read and support whatever path you choose. And I think you're working really hard on yourself and with your D. But also remember to be gentle with yourself. The goal is not perfection; it's being good enough. Hugs if wanted.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

LT, your relationship with Dr. T reminds me of the square peg in a round hole. Sometimes it fits and connects. But most of the time, it does not connect. And because it technically fits, you keep trying to make it work. And it is, with your D. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting the relationship to work especially since you are getting much needed and wanted support for your D. But for you, Dr. T doesn't seem to help with your issues. He seems to trigger you.

I feel for you, LT. I know you're trying your absolute best. That's why you even seek out support and opinions here. And I know what it's like to so desperately want a relationship to work, even a therapeutic one.

Please know this: I do read and support whatever path you choose. And I think you're working really hard on yourself and with your D. But also remember to be gentle with yourself. The goal is not perfection; it's being good enough. Hugs if wanted.

Thanks, Scarlet, I really appreciate the support. I do also wonder if I'm sort of playing something out with Dr. T, like a childhood thing, from my parents? In trying to get his support and care, even if he's not that open about it. And feeling some sort of victory in a way when I get him to openly show care.

If he worked in a different way, I imagine this would be a great thing to share with him and explore. But he doesn't. Though, if he worked in a different way, this stuff likely wouldn't be coming up, because he'd just be giving me unconditional positive regard and stuff....

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

I saw Dr. T today (he was off yesterday, so just Tuesday and Friday this week), and I felt rather distanced from him. We were talking about all outside things--stuff with D and with H--nothing related to the therapeutic relationship. But usually I feel more connected when I'm talking about at least D stuff with him.

I'm wondering if it's that I don't feel really "safe" with him yet, that the rupture is still looming in the back of my mind, and we might need to discuss it more? It didn't help probably that today, something that came up with H involved concerns about his being irritated, so Dr. T was talking about that some. So it brought to mind what he'd (Dr. T) said to me recently.

I also wonder if it could be partly related to his looking at his phone right when I walked in and making a comment like, "Ugh, something else to figure out." And I said, "Everything OK?" He said something like, "You think you have something figure out, then another thing pops up." I said, "Scheduling thing? Never mind, I'll stop prying."

Would something like that bother you? It's not the first time he's reacted to something on his phone during session (not counting the wife call). Like he picks it up to do scheduling (at the end) or to look at the weather because of a comment I made (or look something up he's referencing), then reacts to presumably a text, saying, "I need to not look at my phone." (Though sometimes, it's a positive reaction, like, "Oh, good." But still, it's my session, and he's focusing on something/someone other than me.)

ETA: I guess I did feel fairly connected to him last Wednesday (Friday was just OK), but I've found with ruptures, right after the initial repair session(s), I tend to feel more connected, then I often pull back a bit, randomly or from something really minor that wouldn't have affected me under normal circumstances.

ETA2: OK, one last thing is that he was wearing shorts today, which he hasn't done in a while, so could that have somehow thrown me off? I don't know....

No - that sort of thing doesn't bother me with anyone. I would accept it as a part of normal human interaction and go on. I would doubt any of the utterances had anything to do with me because it is more of someone just talking outloud to themselves. I talk like that more to myself than to any other human who might be standing nearby

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks, Scarlet, I really appreciate the support. I do also wonder if I'm sort of playing something out with Dr. T, like a childhood thing, from my parents? In trying to get his support and care, even if he's not that open about it. And feeling some sort of victory in a way when I get him to openly show care.

If he worked in a different way, I imagine this would be a great thing to share with him and explore. But he doesn't. Though, if he worked in a different way, this stuff likely wouldn't be coming up, because he'd just be giving me unconditional positive regard and stuff....

What does unconditional positive regard look like to you? Because I am not sure it is what you seem to be expecting.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by stopdog

No - that sort of thing doesn't bother me with anyone. I would accept it as a part of normal human interaction and go on. I would doubt any of the utterances had anything to do with me because it is more of someone just talking outloud to themselves. I talk like that more to myself than to any other human who might be standing nearby

What does unconditional positive regard look like to you? Because I am not sure it is what you seem to be expecting.

Well, he very specifically said (a long time ago) that he does not believe in unconditional positive regard. But I see it as looking at someone assuming their best intentions. Giving them the benefit of the doubt. Focusing on the reasons behind the actions vs. the actions themselves--like, for example, "This client is doing this because they feel insecure. Let's address that" vs. "This client is irritating me. Let's address that." Like, maybe the T has the second thought, too, but focuses on the first one. Or "I don't know why the client is doing this--let's examine that." (Note, thinking of this in terms of therapist toward client, not people toward other people in general.)

[velcro003]

I'm not so sure that even if you found a T that gave you uconditional positive regard (and I am guessing this probably looks different for anyone), that your specific attachment "issues" wouldn't come up. At the crisis center I was at, one of the T's said that whatever problems we were having out in the 'real world,' we would bring into the therapy room as well. And she was right. With both of my T's, I think they are warm and validating, and yet all of my abandonment triggers still get triggered despite that.

I hope that makes some sense

[smileygal]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

Thanks, Scarlet, I really appreciate the support. I do also wonder if I'm sort of playing something out with Dr. T, like a childhood thing, from my parents? In trying to get his support and care, even if he's not that open about it. And feeling some sort of victory in a way when I get him to openly show care..

This feels possible... Reenactments are very common in T. Could be useful to bring up although you said he isn't into exploring this so may be futile.

If he worked in a different way, I imagine this would be a great thing to share with him and explore. But he doesn't. Though, if he worked in a different way, this stuff likely wouldn't be coming up, because he'd just be giving me unconditional positive regard and stuff....

My T does show unconditional positive regard and is open to me talking about anything for as long as I want but still old wounds and attachment injuries and ruptures still happen. It would mean however he might come across as less judgemental and thus shaming.

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by velcro003

I'm not so sure that even if you found a T that gave you uconditional positive regard (and I am guessing this probably looks different for anyone), that your specific attachment "issues" wouldn't come up. At the crisis center I was at, one of the T's said that whatever problems we were having out in the 'real world,' we would bring into the therapy room as well. And she was right. With both of my T's, I think they are warm and validating, and yet all of my abandonment triggers still get triggered despite that.

I hope that makes some sense

YESSS. I get the sense sometimes that my T likes me a little more than she is probably supposed to (not bragging, it has huge downsides), and I still get all tangled up in my attachment stuff. Like, all the time. She is clearly not going anywhere and not going to change her opinion of me at this point, and yet... The difference is that working through it with her is helping me identify it when it comes up with other people. Like, oh, this reaction is reality in a this particular social situation and this reaction is probably my own stuff.

LT, do you find Dr. T invalidating? I think there is space for a T who is good at some things and not others (this basically describes all of them), but somebody who makes you feel invalidated, rejected, or shamed will actually cause more harm than good in terms of re-activating the original wounds. (My T and I talked about this several times during a prolonged rupture that we finally resolved. She said she would need to find a different approach -- like a break or a temporary referral -- if I either of us felt like she was hurting more than she was helping.)

[zoiecat]

LT...I thought about you while listening to this podcast on the way home tonight. She talks about attachment issues and overreacting.

I hope things work out and you can take a DBT class. I really think you would learn a lot and finally feel some relief. It is frustrating and painful to watch you repeatedly struggle with the same issues. I wish you the best.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by velcro003

I'm not so sure that even if you found a T that gave you uconditional positive regard (and I am guessing this probably looks different for anyone), that your specific attachment "issues" wouldn't come up. At the crisis center I was at, one of the T's said that whatever problems we were having out in the 'real world,' we would bring into the therapy room as well. And she was right. With both of my T's, I think they are warm and validating, and yet all of my abandonment triggers still get triggered despite that.

I hope that makes some sense

Thanks, that does make sense. I don't think it's that my issues wouldn't come up with a T who had UPR--ex-MC did, and they still came up there. And he still ended up hurting me badly.

In some ways, I thought it would be better to have a T who wasn't like that, who was just open and honest with me. But at times, I feel like Dr. T's feelings are in the room too much, that it becomes more about him and his reactions. And it's usually negative feelings, in reaction to something I've said or done.

Or even if he's saying something is OK, he often says it in a more negative way. On Friday (I think?), it came up again how I'm careful in what I say to him. I mentioned how I'd said in a recent session that I wanted to say I felt loved by him, but didn't know if he'd feel weird about it. And how at the time I said that, he didn't say anything at all, and I just felt awkward. Then Friday, he said, "I don't recall feeling weirded out by anything in that conversation." Which I know is him trying to reassure me, but it's kind of an odd way of saying it. As opposed to, for example, "I felt OK about that discussion."

Does that make sense, the difference?

I mean, he will say things like "All is well on my end," if I'm concerned something I said/did bothered him. So I guess that's fairly positive (rather than saying "nothing is wrong").

Anyway, I sort of veered off topic there.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by zoiecat

LT...I thought about you while listening to this podcast on the way home tonight. She talks about attachment issues and overreacting.

I hope things work out and you can take a DBT class. I really think you would learn a lot and finally feel some relief. It is frustrating and painful to watch you repeatedly struggle with the same issues. I wish you the best.

Thanks for sharing this--will watch in a bit--and for the wishes.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by LonesomeTonight

In some ways, I thought it would be better to have a T who wasn't like that, who was just open and honest with me. But at times, I feel like Dr. T's feelings are in the room too much, that it becomes more about him and his reactions. And it's usually negative feelings, in reaction to something I've said or done.

Or even if he's saying something is OK, he often says it in a more negative way. On Friday (I think?), it came up again how I'm careful in what I say to him. I mentioned how I'd said in a recent session that I wanted to say I felt loved by him, but didn't know if he'd feel weird about it. And how at the time I said that, he didn't say anything at all, and I just felt awkward. Then Friday, he said, "I don't recall feeling weirded out by anything in that conversation." Which I know is him trying to reassure me, but it's kind of an odd way of saying it. As opposed to, for example, "I felt OK about that discussion."

Can I just say, the second of the two paragraphs I quoted is him being him, and that’s not going to change. You can’t control someone else’s script. You can only manage your feelings about it.

The first, to be honest, going from your posts here, is sometimes true of him, but I also think you often bring his feelings and reactions into the room by focusing a lot on them. I know that it is hard not to do that, but there are advantages to thinking of the therapist as a stick of furniture, a la stopdog, at times. (Not saying all the time, but when you think more about them then you, that’s a good time.

And for those reasons I second zoiecat’s DBT suggestion. I know you find CBT invalidating, and I imagine you’d feel the same about DBT, but I also think it might be worth setting a time frame, like a couple months, to try DBT while ignoring the feelings of invalidation, because feeling those feelings and learning how to deal with them is how those therapies work.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

YESSS. I get the sense sometimes that my T likes me a little more than she is probably supposed to (not bragging, it has huge downsides), and I still get all tangled up in my attachment stuff. Like, all the time. She is clearly not going anywhere and not going to change her opinion of me at this point, and yet... The difference is that working through it with her is helping me identify it when it comes up with other people. Like, oh, this reaction is reality in a this particular social situation and this reaction is probably my own stuff.

LT, do you find Dr. T invalidating? I think there is space for a T who is good at some things and not others (this basically describes all of them), but somebody who makes you feel invalidated, rejected, or shamed will actually cause more harm than good in terms of re-activating the original wounds. (My T and I talked about this several times during a prolonged rupture that we finally resolved. She said she would need to find a different approach -- like a break or a temporary referral -- if I either of us felt like she was hurting more than she was helping.)

Thanks for the comments, EM. I actually do understand what you mean about your T maybe liking you more than she's supposed to and how it can have downsides.

I don't think this is probably what you're talking about, but I have felt like Dr. T often enjoys talking to me, like just talking about random stuff or sometimes more intellectual things. He's also said before that session time with me goes by quickly, as we always have plenty to talk about and that I'm generally very engaging (or something to that effect).

With him disclosing a lot more since the pandemic, there are moments where it can feel more friend-like. Which can then make it more jarring when he throws up some sort of therapy boundary. Note: I'm fully aware that friends have boundaries for each other, too; I'm talking about specific therapist-client/professional relationship ones here.

But anyway, back to what you were saying: It helps to know that attachment stuff comes up with L, too, and that it's allowing you to make those connections in your outside life. I did recently notice a parallel with something that happened with Dr. T and then with H (where it was like, "Oh, that's what's going on here"). And I do feel like I'm getting some practice with Dr. T in terms of addressing conflicts with people--I think I'm generally handling them better in my outside life, certainly standing up for myself more, for example (though I guess that cost me a friendship last year...).

As for invalidating: There are definitely moments (including recently) where I've felt invalidated and/or shamed by him. But there have also been so many times that he's validated my feelings, regarding D, H, my mother, friends (including the friendship that ended), etc. that I feel they far outweigh the invalidating ones. And I've found the validating ones to be very healing.

The problem is, as he's mentioned, I tend to be much more likely to remember the negative interactions with people than the positive ones. So the invalidating moments stick out to me, where the validating ones can become sort of fuzzy in the background. Plus, the past couple years have been mostly validating ones until what's happened recently, so it's sort of shaken me a bit. I want to be able to shift my focus to see all the validation, support, and care from him, but it can be difficult for me to do that (which I think he finds to be frustrating, but see: anxious attachment).

I feel like in most any relationship, there are going to be some invalidating moments (there was just a minor one a few moments ago with H, in fact!), and I need to learn to focus on the full balance of relationships, not one negative thing that was done or said.

Also, ex-MC validated me all the time--and warmly--and so then the final rupture, where I felt very invalidated and gaslit, felt like 1,000 times more painful because of all the validation that had come before it. And it made me doubt the reality of the relationship, whether it was all just fake, if he truly cared, etc.

I'm not sure what my conclusion is here, I suppose that lots of validation can be undone by one invalidation. Not sure how that ties back to Dr. T, except that maybe in some weird way I feel safer that he's not constantly validating, because it feels harder to trust. But, I think the fact that he had been so validating since the pandemic (with a few small blips), this feels like a bit of a crash to me here (even if in the grand scheme of things, from the outside, and certainly to him, it probably seems really minor).

(Eek, that was long--just thinking out loud here, in a manner of speaking.)

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

Can I just say, the second of the two paragraphs I quoted is him being him, and that’s not going to change. You can’t control someone else’s script. You can only manage your feelings about it.

The first, to be honest, going from your posts here, is sometimes true of him, but I also think you often bring his feelings and reactions into the room by focusing a lot on them. I know that it is hard not to do that, but there are advantages to thinking of the therapist as a stick of furniture, a la stopdog, at times. (Not saying all the time, but when you think more about them then you, that’s a good time.

And for those reasons I second zoiecat’s DBT suggestion. I know you find CBT invalidating, and I imagine you’d feel the same about DBT, but I also think it might be worth setting a time frame, like a couple months, to try DBT while ignoring the feelings of invalidation, because feeling those feelings and learning how to deal with them is how those therapies work.

Thanks, @@. I was actually going to include a sort of disclaimer at the end of "Yes, I know, I can't dictate how someone responds to me." And I agree it's who he is, so I do my best to just understand those are his ways of saying something is OK.

I know I also bring his feelings into the room or at least keep them in the room once he's brought them in. I guess I also tend to do that with most everyone, which can be good in some senses--that I'm sensitive to people's feelings--but clearly bad in others. I suppose I'll try the furniture thing, though as you said, it will be difficult for me.

I guess part of the issue with him is that if I just sort of try to ignore his feelings, then he'll probably bring them up. But I guess I just live with that? Let him say he's irritated or whatever, say, "OK, sorry about that, I'll stop," then drop it? (I know, that probably sounds very obvious!)

I did get a DBT workbook from Amazon. Yes, I know, I get the most benefit from taking a class (and/or working with a DBT T), but while I look into those, I figure I can at least be reading about it and trying out some things. From a glance, some seem pretty self-explanatory, like some of the mindfulness ones, whereas others I'd probably want someone to help me with the process and tell me if I'm doing it right.

[unaluna]

I guess i missed what bad thing happened recently.

Also, you keep talking about him bringing his feelings into the room. Why cant that be, he is just doing his job? His being a blank slate is to act as a representative of humanity. Like to say to you, "are you sure you want to do that?" Instead of, "Wtf is wrong with you?!" THAT would be "bringing his feelings into the room." Not just setting a boundary, like "thats getting annoying." You are negating his ability to do ANYTHING therapeutic by declaring it all "his feelings."

ETA - By definition of his being your t, none of it is "his feelings". End ETA.

Also, do you expect to get thru this without ever feeling shame? I dont think thats realistic. I felt shame constantly IRL, so of course i will bring that into t. I had to temper myself so to speak to not feel shame when i accepted a glass of water from him. But that was all me, not anything he was doing. When you feel shame, you yell at him. Or blame him. Or dwell on how he should have said something differently. But you have to change something in you for this to work.

[LonesomeTonight]

Originally Posted by unaluna

I guess i missed what bad thing happened recently.

Also, you keep talking about him bringing his feelings into the room. Why cant that be, he is just doing his job? His being a blank slate is to act as a representative of humanity. Like to say to you, "are you sure you want to do that?" Instead of, "Wtf is wrong with you?!" THAT would be "bringing his feelings into the room." Not just setting a boundary, like "thats getting annoying." You are negating his ability to do ANYTHING therapeutic by declaring it all "his feelings."

ETA - By definition of his being your t, none of it is "his feelings". End ETA.

Also, do you expect to get thru this without ever feeling shame? I dont think thats realistic. I felt shame constantly IRL, so of course i will bring that into t. I had to temper myself so to speak to not feel shame when i accepted a glass of water from him. But that was all me, not anything he was doing. When you feel shame, you yell at him. Or blame him. Or dwell on how he should have said something differently. But you have to change something in you for this to work.

First: The most recent thing was, first, his saying the text confirmations that we'd be in person had started irritating him, followed shortly after by an email I sent (after a last-minute change to virtual) that he also said was irritating and "confusing" ("Why would you send that after the conversation we'd had?"). I can provide more context if needed--at some point, I moved things from the Couch to this thread, and I may have left some stuff out.

I'm confused by what you mean about how none of it being "his feelings." He's said they're his feelings. Are you trying to say they're actually all my feelings?

And I certainly don't expect to not feel shame! I'm also someone who tends to feel it in my outside life. It's more if I'm feeling additional shame from what my T is saying to me about his reactions to what I'm doing. Not the work of therapy in general--of course shame is going to come out--but in feeling shamed *by* him.

Regarding your last comment, I am trying to change now. He said that this rupture is the first time I seem to be truly examining my own role in it and why I'm reacting this way. And the first time I've overtly told him that I *don't* want to keep reacting this way to these types of things (both from him and people in my outside life). It felt like a breakthrough of sorts (he agreed with this). What I'm unclear on is how exactly we're going to work on that (beyond his saying things like "We all irritate people; it's inevitable" or to trust in the history of the relationship)

Like I'm not sure if there's something I can work on, in there, with him, like skills of some sort, whether mindfulness, CBT, DBT (I know mindfulness is also part of that), etc., or if I'm going to need to go elsewhere to learn them and to process some of this stuff (DBT class, DBT T, EMDR T, some other sort of T, etc.).

[ElectricManatee]

I haven't done legit DBT, but the T who taught me a bunch of DBT things and is trained in DBT is huuuge on validation. Almost excessively so. She would say that all feelings are valid even if not all feelings are justified. It has really changed how I interact with people and especially with my toddler. It's kind of magical.

Thanks for the podcast link zoiecat. I started listening to it, and it's really good so far.