How do you know when a relationship is worth saving?

Ugh - I am really beginning to hate this decision. It seems I go back and forth several times a day - I should ask him to come back; I should tell him it won't work; we can make this work; this will never work. Back and forth, back and forth, all day long. Right this minute, I feel like it's not going to work. I'll explain why.

He and I have been emailing quite a bit the last week. Well, more precisely, I have been emailing and he has been, reading and promising replies. In his defense, he doesn't have internet where he lives so he has to go take his laptop somewhere where he can get internet semi-privately. Still. He finally sent me a response last night - but only to one of the four emails I've sent in the last week.

He doesn't get nasty - neither of us do - which is something that I treasure about our relationship. However, in the email he sent last night, he said some things that are really bothering me. Fundamental things he wants me to change about myself that I can't or don't want to. I am angry and hurt and defensive and I'm fighting my urge to respond to him right now.

Can I just post his email to me last night and respond to it like I want to, as a sort of venting exercise?

I'm going to paste in as much of the most recent email conversations as I have, starting with one from his mom last week.


I thought that was a pretty good email and it made me not dislike her quite as much as I have been lately (another story). I responded point-by-point to him with my questions and comments regarding her email. I don't have my email to post, but I have his response, which includes my comments. Mostly, my comments are in regular text and his are in bold. I hope this works and makes sense.

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From: Him To: Me Sent: Fri 7/29/2011 12:09 am Subject: My rebuttal with anger issued at the end. It's nice that you can ask your mom about this stuff. Also a little disconcerting that she knows so much about our relationship. And, unfair that I don't have my mom. To begin, when you had a mom, did you share this sort of information with her? You cannot make comments about it being unfair for me to have a mom and expect me to ignore them. You have a dad, I do not. Do I constantly bring that up with you? I don't believe so. I am deeply saddened that you lost your mom, Gina. Truly I am. But you can't rightly use that against me. You may not intent it to sound negative however I do read it that way. That may be me, if so it is my mistake. I will add this though: I do think it is a topic you need to focus your counseling on. I wouldn't call them failed counseling sessions. I think we just needed to keep working and going and working on stuff at home too. Counseling can take a long, long time to work. I know you think you're the one who has made all the sacrifices and I'm sure that puts some pressure on our relationship. But, I've made sacrifices too. I doubt you notice them. There is no we in counseling; it is you. You need to address your issues. I have been rather accepting of issues sans a few minor. The counseling is something you need; I was only doing it to support you and help build a better relationship. All the issues seem to focus on you yet you sit in the office and listen with minimal input. What sacrifices have you made for me? Not for anyone else, not for Oliver or your sister or your mom but for me? I have not noticed them unless you count not sleeping with others as one. If that is a sacrifice then our relationship is certainly troubled beyond any point I thought. It is true that you supported me when I was having difficulty paying my share but I have since paid that back. I could have turned all that down but I didn't; I stayed with you. I see that as me making a sacrifice more than you making one. I sacrificed job security and jobs to stay with you. You are correct; I have not noticed sacrifices you made for me with the exception of a few minor ones. Although even they were not for me entirely in my opinion. Prove to me otherwise. Tell me what Allen sacrifices you have made that constitute you making that claim and I will consider them. We talked about this. I still think this sounds like she thinks I want to get married right away. I doubt that is the case. I am under the impression that she wants me to marry more than she thinks you want to get married. My mom has hinted for years about me settling down and getting married. However, she claims to understand why I have no interest in doing that. I don't know that I 100% agree that it's really confusing for Oliver. He doesn't really know anything else. There has been some confusion with our names (why does he call you Allen but me Mom? Are you his dad? If not, who is?) but none of it really seems to cause him much distress. He feels loved and that's what's important. I agree, him feeling loved is most important. I also believe that later on in life-if you replace me with another father figure-Oliver could develop some issues that are difficult for him to dissect on his own. His mom meets these guys who are not his dad and she doesn't talk to his real dad but she lets these strangers step in as father figures. The guy will not have a foundation for a father at all. It seems like it could get confusing after some time. It may not though, my Nana has been married many times and my mom seems certain about who her dad was. My aunt is a different story though; she was a party animal most of her teen and young adult life. She blames a lot of issues on not having a father figure. Therapy at work! I say. This is true. There is a way to get you legal rights. It means Andrew has to voluntarily relinquish his rights and no more child support from him. I think we could do it without getting married but I'm not sure. Anyway, this is off the table unless and until we get back together. Even then, I will have to give it some very serious consideration. I do not see getting legal rights to Oliver. I wrote that in a letter. I will never-in my opinion-be accepted as his legal or real father/dad. All I want is for him to have a figure in his life that he can rely on even if we are not together. He has been disowned by one man; I don't want him to feel disowned by another. Yep - in the top two of my issues with our relationship. Something I plan to spend a lot of time thinking about in the next couple months. You should consider this one seriously. I do not want more kids. Could that change over time, certainly? But, at this moment and as far as I can see I do not want another kid. If it is in the top two issues for you then we may need to call it quits here. It is a topic or issue I am strong about. Marriage, living in places I dislike, putting up with your emotional fragility are all things I can work with but a child is not. I just do not want one, maybe adoption at some point but that too is down the road. I find this part very troublesome. The part about you fearing losing Oliver more than me. I'm sure you know that it's wrong to stay together for the children's sake, and I'm sure you've considered what will happen to your relationship with him if our relationship ends. But the thought that you might still be in this just for Oliver and not for me is painful to me. Now a day, I love Oliver more. I loved both of you equally and I felt a little more complete with both of you in my life. However, now-after what you did- I do love Oliver more. I do fear that you'll cut off all my ties with Oliver if we stay apart, that is out of concern for Oliver (read above the section on Oliver and fathers/dads). What does she mean, "What her family is like"? Can I separate myself from what? What have you told her about my family? I think this part is the part that is bothering me the most... She means the lack of communication you and your dad have. The closed feelings that exists in your family. She only knows this from what I say, I admit. I tell her you guys never talked, or rarely talked, that you don't share feelings with one another. I tell her how your sister seems rude and snobbish to me. I tell her how I rarely hear "thank you" from you guys and how I feel you both-you and your sister- seem to expect things to be done for you without consideration. I tell her how I perceive your family. Yes, it may be biased but very little has shown me different. We concluded that it is rooted in upbringing. I was raised to respect others, be grateful, and always be considerate of others. My brother, not so much, so it is upbringing. My mom was in a career change most of his formative years and he just developed a dependence on her, Donnie, his grandmother. I rather Oliver be raised how I was and appreciate what others do; I told my mom that I got the feeling you and your sister-through your mom or your dad- were never taught to be thankful and appreciative of what others do for you. Can you change your ways? Can you separate yourself from the way they-your family-clam things up? Let's begin with your sister and her moving; it is obvious that you did not want it but you said very little about it. I was raised to discuss this type of thing. "Hey, I really could use you now. Could you please put off moving a few months? I have no one and I really need the comfort and support of my best friend...who is also my sister." You are not begging her to stay, you are simply telling her that you are in need of help and it hurts that she wants to leave when she is needed most. I'm pretty sure that's not why I did it. I don't remember everything that was going through my mind, but I'm pretty positive I never thought I would end up in a relationship with that guy and he would move in with me and help me out. You do have insecurity issues that have plagued you for years. You have mentioned that to me. Did you please that guy in the hopes of developing a long lasting relationship? I doubt it. You did it because you are insecure and you fill your emptiness with being a one-night stand. It's tragic, Gina. But it is something you either accept or you change. I do not believe having a kid changes someone in that respect, particularly when the kid was had in just such a situation. I didn't know what was going through your mind but I do know now, from what you told me and (mishearing it I am sure) I am even more hurt. Unless I misheard this (something you say I do often to be honest) you said the thought of me did go through your mind when you started. So you knew that was going through your mind, Gina. My theory as to why you did it: You like one-night stands; you like feeling loved even when it is obviously lust and not love. You get confused about the two. You want out of our relationship more than you admit or you are aware of. I am going to lay out in the sun, now. If you have anything comforting to tell me please do. As of late though, you use words like "blameless" and "I need counseling". I say to you, my dear, that you are taking this issue too far in terms of us. You need to continue considering if you want me in your life instead of laying blame on me for sucking someone off. If I am to blame for that then I want out of this relationship right now. Never, I mean never, justify blowing someone else because of me. I have to go, I furious once again.

And that was the "scathing email" I mentioned in a post the other day. He was drunk when he wrote that last paragraph. I woke up in the middle of the night for some reason and read that email and couldn't go back to sleep. It was terrible.

I answered that email the next day. I thought I did a pretty good job not getting too defensive, although I did a little bit. I do not have that email I sent; it is at home but I'll post it in later. I hope this is all making sense. In that last response, I think I brought up a lot of things that really needed to be addressed but he said he wanted to wait and see how counseling went before he responded to it. I went to my first counseling session on Monday morning and on Monday evening I emailed him a run-down. I addressed a lot of other issues in our relationship in that email as well. I do not have a copy of it here at work - it is at home. Here is his response to that email:

And my response to that on Tuesday morning (I left his email in and responded [in blue] point-by-point so that it was more coherent):

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From: Me To: Him Sent: Tue 8/2/2011 11:50 am Subject: RE: Counseling I just wanted to add one thing: I do want to be the happy, carefree, fun-loving person I was during the Summer of 2008. I get caught up in day-to-day stresses and forget to make plans to do fun things. And with Oliver, planning is almost always required. (Keep in mind, planning was not required Summer 2008 because my dad watched Oliver most of the time.) Maybe, this is something you could help me with.

He finally responded to that last email last night. He never really fully responded to my email about counseling, just that disjointed effort I posted above. So, just to tally up, he never responded to "RE: My rebuttal with anger issued at the end." or fully to "Counseling". But, here is what he did send me last night:

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From: Him To: Me Sent: Thu 8/4/2011 11:33 PM Subject: RE: Counseling Gina, responding to this is hard. I am not exactly sure what I need to write or say. I have concluded that writing you a letter is pointless since we email and send messages via phone constantly. The letter I have been starting and restarting will end up containing the same material our messages and emails contain. ·Steps I am taking towards making decision whether to fight for our relationship oReading books and going to a counselor are not the only things I am doing, because I agree. I do think I have to approach this from all sides and hit it with everything I’ve got in order to make a decision I can live with. I also spend pretty much every waking moment, and even some non-waking moments, mulling it all over in my head. I’ve been keeping a pro-con list, which is just brainstorming, every little thing I can think of goes on there. Plus, my online message board thing. I believe it is good that you are using these resources. I suppose you'll come to a conclusion at some point. I can't think of a way to help you with that. It is something you need to figure out. ·Regarding me wanting to change you oI didn’t go into our relationship wanting to change you. That thought never occurred to me. I’ve told you many times that there is a quite a disconnect between the way I feel and the way I think regarding things such as your traveling. Logically, in my head, I understand that you need to travel and that it is a part of who you are and I should be grateful for the temporary separations as usually it will make our relationship stronger. In my head I do not want to change you. However, controlling feelings is much more difficult than controlling thoughts. Even so, I have struggled and fought over the last year to change my feelings towards your traveling – constantly reminding myself that it is one of the few things that makes you happy, and I want you to be happy, therefore, I want to be happy for your traveling. That is how I finally got to a somewhat okay place with you going to Alaska. It hasn’t been easy, though. oHowever, I believe when people enter a relationship, there are certain behaviors they must change. As a relationship progresses, these changes become more pronounced and dramatic. For instance, when you first start dating someone and decide to see that person exclusively, a change that will need to be made is to stop seeing other people. Then the relationship progresses, and you make a change such as feeling comfortable letting the other person know where you are and what you’re doing most of the time, and they do the same for you. Then, say you move in together, and a change that has to be made is, for example, changing some of your household habits in order to get along with the other person. I’m going to stop here and ask if you agree with me so far – if what I’m writing makes sense. If yes, then I will continue this line of thought and how it applies to our relationship. If not, I’ll try to explain it better. I agree, partially. Yes, people who enter relationships need to adjust behaviors accordingly. However, people in relationships also need to accept the others behaviors. This said, I believe a relationship is built on acceptance, compromise, honesty, love, loyalty and trust. My love of travel is one component of me, it is one of the aspects of me that defines who I am. You say above that when people enter a relationship they must change certain behaviors. However, you did not change your behavior hence why we are in this situation now. Traveling is a behavior that I feel doesn't need to change dramatically. It can be adjusted, and I believe that since I've been with you I have adjusted it rather greatly, but I do not believe it needs to stop or come under some pronounced change to the point that it causes unhappiness in a person. A behavior that does need to stop in my opinion is seeing other people. It is hard for me to response to this section of the email because I start getting angered with you. The outline you provide in the above section sounds perfect and I believe I have been on par with them. I've limited my travel to be there for you, I've stopped seeing other people, I with regularity keep in touch with you and let you know what I was doing most of the time, I changed my household habits for you. You have not fully devoted yourself to me in those respects. ·Have I changed? oThis paragraph scares me. Yes, things have been extremely difficult the last couple years for me and a lot of that has come out in my behavior. However, I fear that it has been so long that it is now becoming part of who I am. oI’m worried that I am who I am now more than I was when you fell in love with me. I’m not sure this is true. I’m sure some things have changed. It is hard for me to pinpoint how much of the changes are fundamental changes in who I am and how much of them are just situational and are likely to change back. oCan you be more specific about the changes you see that bother you? I know one of them is what you call “coldness” or “distance”. What else? Maybe if I know what they are specifically I can determine whether it is just a situational thing or if I have really changed. oLet me ask you this – you say you fell in love with someone different than who you have been with the past year or so. Are you saying that the first year you were here I was still the person you fell in love with and the changes have really only come since my mom died? If so, that is encouraging. If you have been seeing a different person in me ever since you got back from Korea, however, that could be quite a problem, since that has been the majority of our relationship. oOur time together before you went to Korea was relatively short. Five months, about, out of three years total. Of course, at the beginning of our relationship I was exceptionally happy, as most people are when they fall in love. There was also the factor that I was back in Talkeetna, home, finally, and I thought I’d never have to leave again. I got depressed at the end of the summer, maybe I hid that from you or maybe you didn’t notice. I was depressed about you leaving and about work and then I couldn’t find a babysitter for a while and spent a couple weeks homebound and that worsened the depression. So, I was giddy at the beginning of the summer and that faded into despair by the end. I suppose you remember the Gina that first came back to Talkeetna. oLastly, regarding the last three sentences. You are using past-tense when describing the things you liked about me. Do you not still feel an attraction to me? Do you not enjoy my company anymore? Do you not believe I am happy or optimistic? Pinpointing these changes is not easy. I am not sure they were even changes or if I was just blind from the beginning. I also feel I have mentioned all this before. I need a person who is more optimistic than pessimistic, someone who is relatively contented or happy for the most part and who is creative. Someone who has suggestions and input about things and activities. I do believe the changes-your demeanor-are related to the events leading up to and including your mom's death. What I am about to say may be hard for you to read; I do not mean it to be cutting or tactless though. With the exception of your mom's final months and her death I believe you find excuses to be melancholy, unhappy, depressed, guilt-ridden, cold, or lazy. First it was finding a place to live, then it was studying for the CPA exam, then it was waiting for the results, then it was tax season, etc... You always had a excuse for being too tired to do something or proactively engage yourself with me and Oliver. I do feel an attraction to you still, did that not show when you were visiting up here? It was tough because I wanted to be mad at you, instead I was hurt and sad. I just wanted to hold you and make your infidelity vanish. I wanted to yell at you for destroying my trust in you. Before that event and your visit, I stayed with you in that crap hole town out of love and attraction. I enjoyed your company often, not all the time, but much of the time. I enjoyed it when I didn't have to pull interaction out of you; when you seemed like you were not pre-occupied by something else. Honestly, I do not believe you to be as happy as you should be or could be. I believe you to be overly guilt-ridden by more things than a person your age and background should be. ·Working on our relationship oI’m glad you said this because if we do get back together, it will take hard work from both of us to repair our relationship. I was the one that ****ed up, but I cannot fix it all by myself. oI didn’t mean to say that our relationship was normal. I know we had problems and things are supposed to be much better than they are. I just disagree with you that relationships are not supposed to have problems within three years. All relationships have problems and three years is a pretty long time for a relationship and I disagree that we should still be in the “honeymoon phase” where we just adore one another and there are no problems (especially when you’re living together and one of you is having trouble finding work and the other has a sick/dead mom and there is a child). Maybe we were just less successful at working through them than some couples. Relationships do have problems, I understand that. I do not believe they should have a constant supply of problems. I began thinking that is how our relationship was developing: problem after problem after problem or misunderstandings and unhealthy dynamics. We do not see eye-to-eye on the idea of relationships though. I say that because you mention that we should not be a "honeymoon phase" were we just adore one another. What good is a relationship if I can't, or you can't, find things about you that I adore or things that make me smile. After reading this I wonder if you see relationships more as business partnerships. I have to go. I am on Cortni's computer and she keeps coming in here. If this sounds harsh I apologise. I am having a difficult time replying to it. Goodnight. I love you. I love you, and again, I am sorry for causing you pain. More sorry than I’ll ever be able to express. Gina

I have been trying to change for him - trying to accept his love of travel (he does it without consulting me), trying to be neater and tidier and clean up after myself better, trying to spend less time on my computer and more time with him and my son, working on sharing the banal trivia about my day with him because he likes it, etc. He doesn't notice any of my efforts. He didn't even respond to my paragraph about my struggle to accept his traveling.

It makes me so angry when he says I am pessimistic and unhappy. He is the one who is depressed and suicidal, yet he refuses to get help because he thinks it makes him a better writer. I at least take medication for my anxiety, he doesn't believe in medicating. He is the one who can never be content with what he has. When he lived in Alaska, he was miserable because his job sucked. Same with when he went to Korea. In Colorado, he hates the town and everything about it, but can only remember the good things about Alaska, Korea, Georgia. He refuses to just be happy that he has a family, a roof, friends, whatever.

Yes, the last two years have been hell on earth. Taking the CPA exam, taking care of my dying mom, three tax seasons, being a mom to a five-year-old, dealing with my mom's disastrous estate after her death... it's all taken a toll on me. What does he want from me? Of course I'm stressed out. But how can he possibly call me lazy? I'm the least lazy person I know. I do not find excuses to be "melancholy, unhappy, depressed, guilt-ridden, cold, or lazy". I have damn good reasons to feel those ways. Besides, I am less "melancholy, unhappy, and depressed" than he is. What the **** is his problem? Why does he think everything is my fault?

Lastly, and I probably just need to tell him this, it's not that there is nothing I adore about him anymore. There are plenty of things. I am keeping a list (my pro-con list) and it is three pages long. I just don't think that the stage where you can't see the other person's faults and are too enamored with one another to fight should last three years.

So, more or less, that is what I want to respond to him. I will let myself cool off some more and wait a day or two to actually respond because I know I am in no position to get defensive or make demands. I just needed to get that stuff off my chest. Thanks for reading. Good god, I don't even want to know how long this post is going to be once it gets up there. Is there a length limit?

I originally started posting a point-by-point reply but I got a little bit triggered so it'll be briefer than I'd like.

One thing that stands out to me is that the way I interpret his emails, it almost seems like he's talking down to you. Now I'm not surprised completely that he doesn't want counselling, the idea being that "you cheated, why should I have to do anything" makes sense to me. But you say that this isn't just since the cheating and he mentions that when you went previously, it was all for you. It feels to me that he places himself above counselling but puts you right on that level, and again, in that angry circle of despair, I felt the same way; but for you I'm looking at the bigger pre-cheating issue. And the way he mentions your issues, we all have them, not only here but on the planet. I'm about 99% sure he has issues of some sort, but his wording makes me feel like he's waiting for a medal.

Another point I remember is his/his mother's view of your family. Every family is different and I don't know if he's getting credit for that. I'm very appreciative of the things my family does, but we don't verbalize it often; instead we continue the circle, I'll "repay" by picking up dinner or something. Know what I mean? Rather than "Thank you for doing ___" directly, I would make sure to say yes to a favour next time I'm asked.

When it comes to your son, right now I understand him feeling like he loves him more. That might entirely be his hurt talking, and I would hope that would change in time as he sees that you are not your mistake. Yes, it can be confusing when you have a non-traditional family structure, but I truly believe that coming from a family that is loving and supportive is so much more important than having a married mother and father. There are many single parents who date, many choose not to introduce all of their dates to their children so as to avoid this confusion, but this isn't an impossible situation.

The question that circled my head all day, every day was "why/how" I just felt like I needed to understand, something, anything. I couldn't shut that voice up. Unfortunately, I could not ever figure out why it happened, that was for my bf. I think for your bf, having an answer is easier to accept, so he's put one on the table, but like me, he can't find the real answer. That's your job and it might be a long one. I remember asking my bf "what? Did you forget about me? Did you forget you were in a relationship, were we that disposable? Or did you just not care?" No easy answer there. The ability to compartmentalize hugely came into play. Near the end he realized how wrong what he was doing. He chose to compartmentalize because he liked the feeling of having someone be so attracted to him. Someone that has no bias (being in a relationship, he spun that I have to say ___).

Have I mentioned the tests I gave at all yet? For the past...it's probably not over yet...when I start to get upset and feel like it's not worth it to try and continue the relationship, I test his commitment. I tell him "I'm done" and if I'm really down I'll start to through mud to try and get him to say "you're right, this isn't worth it". As devastating as that would be, it would prove that small voice in my head right -that one that says, "he cheated because he doesn't love you/wants out etc". That voice believes it's just a matter of time, so when it gets to speak out loud, it tries to speed up the process.

How you have changed. We are changed by our experiences. Losing your mom () will affect you. But as you go through the stages of grief, I do believe that happiness and optimism will come back

I have to admit, it took me three days to read last your post. But I wanted you to know I read it, and though I might be a little fuzzy in my response, it is not because of a lack of trying or caring.

I understand a lot of what Tsol wrote about in her last post... the tests and the never ending "Why? How? What happened?" in your head. But the thing I agree with most is that it sounds like your boyfriend, Brianna, is talking down to you. I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but when tsol said it, it totally clicked. I understand how hurt he is, but I do not understand his goal in all of this... I'm assuming communication was pretty poor before the affair, but now he feels like it is great time to be bring up EVERYTHING that has bothered him in the past couple of years. I also feel like he has a slightly idealized fantasy of what a relationship should be like at the three year mark. Not to mention, I feel he has a pretty skewed vision of the world because his pride gets in the way (come on, it was more of a sacrifice for him to take money and stay with you than to for you to cover him? I understand it being a sacrifice on his part, but still pretty egotistical to see himself as making MORE of a sacrifice than you -- like he refuses to see what positive things you do in the relationship). I feel like he is always trying to one up you, trying to separate himself from you.

I guess my concern is that he is going to be fighting against any work that you would put into saving the relationship. Granted, I think some of that is to be expected. Like Tsol said, there's going to be a lot of testing limits, a lot of "Do you really love me?"s. But I think he has to be willing to communicate with you more, in a more supportive "I want to be with you" way. This could take a lot of time for him to reach that point, but I think you need to find out if he WANTS to reach that point. Or if this is something that is always going to be hanging over your heads, something he feels perfectly justified in bringing up to hurt you. Over time, those tests should get fewer and farther in between. He should be willing to help shoulder the burden of healing the pain, without reminding you that he is doing it every time you struggle a little.

I'm a little confused by the whole changing thing. To me, it seems like half the time he's saying "You changed in the last year" and the other half of the time he's says "You changed right after we started dating." Maybe you need to explain this a little more, or maybe just more concisely so I can see it all on the same page

And one last thing... I'm kind of curious about the whole legal issues with your son... Do you think you can explain this also? I guess I'm just confused about why he feels like he doesn't want any sort of legal connections to him. Has he always felt this way or is that only since everything happened?

I'm sorry if this wasn't any help. Like I said, I'm a little jumbled from reading it disjointedly. I'm very sorry for everything that you've been going through. Take care

Wow - thank you for reading! I'm surprised that anyone, much less two of you, made it through all that. I didn't intend for it to be that long.

Anyway, I started answering you last night, tsol, and I hit the back button on accident and it went away so I gave up.

I'm glad to hear someone else say that about him "talking down to me", it makes me feel like, okay, maybe I'm not misinterpreting things. I've always called it judgmental or critical, but I think we are talking about the same type of attitude. It has been an issue for most of our relationship. He is judgmental and not just with me (one of his favorite pasttimes is people-watching and making fun of their quirks). I think he gets it from his mom; the little bit of time I've spent with them together, they spend a lot of time gossiping about people in their extended family and friends. The criticisms or "talking-down" are more pronounced here than they have been in the past. I believe that's his pain/anger talking. You are seeing the worst of what I've been experiencing, so don't think he's like that all the time.

Honestly, the judgment and criticism of my family is hardest to take for me. It's one thing for him to talk about me and how I am, it's quite another to start in on my sister too. I think my family is more like yours, Tsol, as small as it is. It's really just my sister and I now that our mom died, since neither of us are all that close with our dad. But she and I are like your family in that we don't really need to speak our gratitude all the time, not to say that we never do, we just show it by being there for each other. Honestly, it goes without saying between her and I. A lot of things do. God, do I miss her.

I find it amazing how similar you and my boyfriend's reactions are/were. I suppose that sort of behavior elicits the same type of emotions in a lot of people. He asked me this exact same question, in almost those same words. This was the first time we talked after it happened (other than the conversation when I told him it happened). I told him the truth - and it hurt. The truth was, I knew what I was doing was wrong but I did it anyway. I found some ways to justify it. I wasn't sure if it would be worse for him to know that I hadn't forgotten him or for him to think that I had. So I went with the truth. I think it made it worse:

Quote:

I didn't know what was going through your mind but I do know now, from what you told me and (mishearing it I am sure) I am even more hurt. Unless I misheard this (something you say I do often to be honest) you said the thought of me did go through your mind when you started.

I've got a lot of those same questions swirling around in my head: "why? how?" I am working on the answer(s), I'm reading a fascinating book called Unhooked: How Young Women Pursue Sex, Delay Love, and Lose at Both. It's more of a journalistic piece on the cultural shift in female sexuality in our generation than it is a self-help book, but it is illuminating in some ways, and relevant to my own behavior. I'm seeing my counselor once a week. So, I am working on that question. I figure it's the least I can do for him and it is the very first thing he asked me when we began talking again.

I wanted to explain why he sees borrowing money from me as a sacrifice to him. We met and started dating in Alaska, when we were both living there three years ago. He had already planned to go abroad to teach English for six months or a year that winter, and he didn't change his plans for me since we were uncertain of the future of our relationship. While he was gone, my mom was diagnosed with cancer and began treatments. I decided to move to Colorado to be near her and try to help her. So, we moved back here while he was in Korea. We had, in the meantime, decided to keep up our relationship. That was six months, but we did it. When his job was over in Korea, he moved here to Colorado to be with me two years ago. He had only ever been to this town once before, had no job prospects, no friends, nothing. He was never able to find a stable, full-time job and that put him in debt and caused him to have to rely on me. Since he was only ever in this town for me, and he blames this town for his joblessness, he sees the money I had to lend him as more of his sacrifice than mine. I kind of see it as a sacrifice on both of our parts, but I do see where he's coming from since he didn't really choose to be broke.

And yes, everything that has been a problem in our relationship is coming out now. I kind of think it's best this way; I need to decide if I really think these problems are solvable or if there are too many insurmountable obstacles to a health relationship. Having them all out there in the open is painful but necessary.

I've been saying he has unrealistic expectations of how a relationship should be after three years; he refuses to believe it. That may be one of those insurmountable obstacles... My counselor says he may be projecting a lot of his own problems onto me (depression, lack of contentment, melancholy, unhappiness, pessimism). I agree.

He has said he is willing to work on our relationship. He was a lot less resistant to counseling before the cheating episode. He had said he didn't really think it was helping but this thing about it being solely for me is new. Honestly, you are getting the worst of his attitude in these emails, his texts and phone conversations are much more positive. I don't know why that is. Maybe it's just easier to be so forward and honest in an email than over the phone or text.

RomanSunburn - He has been saying I changed for quite some time, longer than a year, and before my mom died. He's probably right. It may not be that I really changed so much as I behaved differently when he and I first got together. I was very happy - I was falling in love, after all - and I had much fewer responsibilities. I'm probably more who I am now than who I was then. I did ask him, in one of those emails, if the changes were new, like over the last year, or if they had been showing ever since he got back from Korea. He hasn't answered that part.

Okay, so my son was three when he moved in with us. His birth father pays child support but is otherwise uninvolved and it's always been that way. Oliver does not remember when Allen was not around. My plan for legal rights for Allen was to do it if and when we got married. He could adopt Oliver and marry me, all in one fell swoop. One issue with turning over legal rights before then would be the loss of child support. The other issue is I'm not sure I'm ready for that. Since, even before the most recent "episode", I have never been sure I wanted to spend the rest of my life with him, I wasn't sure I wanted to give him rights to Oliver for the rest of his life. Does that make sense? I guess, basically, we just hadn't reached the point in our relationship where I felt comfortable turning over rights. Then, a couple of weeks before the incident, he wrote in a letter asking whether it would be possible for him to get legal rights. He was legitimately interested, so I don't know why he wrote above that

Quote:

I do not see getting legal rights to Oliver. I wrote that in a letter. I will never-in my opinion-be accepted as his legal or real father/dad.

. I imagine that since the cheating and break-up, he has had second thoughts about that, but in his letter, it certainly did sound like he was interested in finding out about it.

Thank you both for your replies, you have been very helpful. I know my posts are ridiculously long and I'm very grateful that you read them. It makes me feel better, at least, to have someone (other than my counselor, who is being paid) to talk to and who, at least in some ways, sides with me.

Ann Landers would say to a reader: "Would you be better off with him or without him?" You have said you have done this exercise. Two thoughts. First, your posts do not include much about what you see in this man that causes you such distress in making a decision. I sometimes get the impression you want the relationship to continue to assuage your guilt, an ego thing to allow you to feel better about yourself.

Second, in my mind, his attitude towards counseling is quite telling. He in essence is saying, "You caused the problem in the relationship, you fix it. I am mostly an innocent bystander in the process you must undertake to remedy the wrong." For your relationship to have a chance, he must do more that acknowledge in an off-hand way his own issues.

One such issue is his being jobless and broke in Colorado. He made the choice to be with you. He knew why you moved there. You did not have to lend him the money. He choose to accept it. He is quite good at marginalizing his decisions to feel better about himself.

My suggestion is this. You ask him to seek counseling with the understanding he will provide his therapist with copies of the correspondence the two of you have exchanged. Without the condition precedent regarding the copies, I would be concerned that his therapist would not get a more complete picture of what is going on.

If he will not agree to counseling, I would question his commitment to making this relationship work. Eventually, should the relationship continue, I think joint counseling would be beneficial.

As an aside, I think Oliver is old enough to sense his mother is troubled. Maybe he needs a hug?

Do you mean you don't see much of the positives or much of the negatives that are causing me distress? I imagine it's positives. Yes, most of the negatives and very few of the positives are coming out in the posts above. I have made a pro-con list, though, and although the con side is longer, the items on the pro side carry more weight. I haven't shared it here because it is long and rambling and mostly just a brainstorm. I could though.

And, yes, one of the items on the pro side is that, while I didn't really want to admit this, I want the challenge of seeing if I can fix the relationship. That's a bad reason, but it is one and it did pop into my head, so it ended up on the list. I would feel better about myself if we could repair our relationship and he could forgive me, eventually.

I do not know if he will agree to counseling. I'm afraid to ask again since last time he took it as me blaming him for my infidelity. I really don't mean it like that, but I've tried to tell him that and... well that was one of the emails he didn't respond to so I don't know if he accepts that or not.

Oliver get tons of hugs! He's a sweet kid, and I think he's just happy to have his mom all to himself lately

As you surmised, I was seeking to determine your motivation for saving this relationship. He must be quite the guy if you are willing to pursue a reconciliation in view of what I perceive as a blatant attempt on his part to place blame for all that has gone wrong in the relationship at your feet.

Yeah for Oliver!

Here are the items that I weighted with a "5" (highest value) on the pro side:
Love
Sweet
Gentle
Considerate
Good w/ Oliver
Smart
Moved here to be w/ me
Best friend
Similar political and religious viewpoints
Doesn't need to posture or puff up his chest
Somewhat willing to put effort into relationship
Willing to make an attempt at forgiveness
Loves Oliver
An overall good person
Need him - emotionally
Is concerned for my well-being
Good in bed
Likes to cuddle

Those are just the "5"s, and the main reasons I'm considering fighting for the relationship.

I always wondered if I was being "emotionally fragile" or overly sensitive when I got the impression that he thought everything was my fault. I thought I was doing that relationship no-no, getting defensive. Perhaps it was not my imagination then?

You know him better than I do. After reading his comments I question the continued validity of some of the positives. Listing needing him emotionally is troubling, especially if he knows you feel that way.

Does anything in this article have a bearing on the relationship: http://counsellingcentral.com/psycho...ive-behaviour/

Yes, as I said, I think he is good at finding ways to discount his behavior and be a victim at your expense.

Hmm, interesting. I believe he and I both show some passive-aggressive tendencies, probably me more so. I hate confrontation and am no good at it, so I sulk instead of bringing stuff up. It's mild, I think, I don't do it on purpose, usually it's just out of self-preservation, I just don't feel like I have the fortitude to have an argument right then.

We have devised a new system for emailing and maybe it will help with the insufficient replies. Going to try it out tonight.

To fill in the gaps from the email conversation I posted the other day:

Last one:

It took me a little to figure out who was saying what in your last post, but figure it out I did. I think it was a good response. I especially like the second half.

I did find it a little odd that you put "somewhat willing to work on relationship" as 5 star worthy on your pro's. I think "willing to work" would have gotten 5, whereas "somewhat willing" would have only gotten 3 or 4. But then, that is my list and not yours, so irrelevant. I agree with TheByz in everything he has written in this thread so far.

Yeah! It used to be color and font-coded, but when I pasted it in, that went away. Much more confusing this way... oh well.

Keep in mind the list was a brainstorm, I was just writing down what came to mind. My counselor suggested I rate the items on a scale of 1 to 5: 5 being an item that is a deal-breaker, i.e. if it's on the con side, it has to change or the relationship is over, if it's on the pro side, it has to stay the same or the relationship is over. 1 being an item that, "eh, I'd kinda like it if that changed (or stayed the same) but it doesn't really matter one way or the other." Him being willing to work on a relationship is definitely a deal-breaker, a 5 if anything ever was a 5, but "willing to work on relationship" wasn't on my list, so "somewhat willing to work on relationship" had to suffice. Make sense? I say "somewhat willing" because, although he professes to be willing to work on the relationship, he still does this stuff that you guys are seeing and pointing out where he shifts blame and won't admit his faults.

Alright, off to draft another email. Here we go.

I don't doubt that his current feelings make his judgement of you more extreme than in the past, but if you are saying that this happened before (even to a lesser extent) that's something that he should recognize. It's not fair/healthy to be in a relationship with someone who sees themselves as better than you. It could be how he was raised, it could be for any number of reasons, what's important though is whether or not he's willing to change the behaviour and if not, is this something you want to accept in your relationship. You say that it's more upsetting that he treats your family in this way than that he treats you this way -why? I know we are always protective of our families, but we need to be protective of ourselves as well. And another thought, if this is a behaviour he's always going to exhibit, how will it impact your son. If he sees/hears your bf talking down to you (even if you think it's being kept separate from him, as he gets older, kids pick up on things) he may see that as the way he is supposed to treat women.

The how/why question. It's partly that we truly do want the answer, but another big part is that it's a cry of distress, it's a step to processing what happened. Once we can wrap our hands around the fact that it did happen and we begin to accept that as a fact the question becomes less frequent. Your explanation of what you were thinking didn't make it worse, a lie would have. See if you lie, and he finds out otherwise, he will have two new hurts
1) The fact that you lied
2) After accepting one thing, he will have to go through the process of accepting the new thing
Even if it sucks, and it hurts and it makes you sick to think about, the truth is the better answer. It restores his trust and helps your conscious. You can't change what happened, what you can do is figure out why you let it happen (which I know you are working on) to that it doesn't reoccur. Look at how you view sex, what your justifications were.

I still don't see borrowing money from you as a sacrifice. Like TheByz said, he made those choices, and yes he did it for you, but that's a relationship. If that's the view he's going to take than everything is a sacrifice. Last night for dinner I had chicken, potatoes and salad because I had dinner at my bf's and that's what was on the menu. So did I sacrifice pizza, chips and ice cream? I guess so, but is that something I can/should hold over his head? Heck no, I was happy to have dinner with him. Do you understand what I'm getting at? Relationships are about compromise, but we make them because the person we are with are worth it. Did you force him to move with you? No. Were you happy to have him there? Yes. Did you plan for him to be jobless (in an awful economy where unemployment is high everywhere btw)? Of course not. He needs to own his part of this decision.

I agree with your counselor that he's projecting his problems on you. Again, this might be where I'm similar to him in mindset. Growing up, I've always been a perfectionist, I've set unreasonably high standards for myself (no one else, just me). This year I was diagnosed with GAD. I've always known that I'm a 'worrier', I figured it would go away if I could just do better. Officially being diagnosed threw my world on a tilt. Now I could never be "perfect", something is wrong with me. I've had so many conflicting emotions about how GAD has ruined my plans for life. My counselor mentioned that I see it as a life sentence, I do. I'll never be able to do this, this way because I'm broken. It's just something that I cannot allow myself to accept, and I feel your bf may have a similar view.

I don't think you are being oversensitive. He's putting 3 years worth of relationship on your shoulders and saying "thanks for all these problems". You said that you want the challenge of saving the relationship. I wonder about your motivations to this. What is your view of this not working out? Do you see it as personal failure to overcome this. Do you need his presence and forgiveness to forgive yourself?

I understand the emails coming across more negatively than other forms of communication. Simply because that's what happened with us. Everyone needs to find what works for them. But I agree that he may be manipulating your "need him emotionally"

Tsol, you put everything into words so beautifully. I've been struggling with my responses in this thread, getting the words and what I"m trying to say correct. But then I read what you wrote, and it just... settles into place and it's like "now, why couldn't I have said it like that!"

Just wanted you to know

RS, thank you!
I feel like i'm talking jibberish-circles, which tends to happen a lot...

I know, she does, huh?!

Hehe, "jibberish-circles". That made me laugh.

Another long one, for those who are interested.

For some reason the font formatting comes over when I use my work computer... There are three emails in this one, mine, which I sent last night (black font), his response (red font), and my response (blue font). Hope that makes sense.

I haven't sent this latest reply (blue font) yet and I'm not sure I should. I'm wondering if I should soften up my words, be a little more humble, as I know he's hurting right now... I've really been working on that since I know I did cause him more hurt than I can imagine.

Tsol, I'm gonna respond to your latest message a little later. I didn't forget.

Darn, my black font turned blue. Okay, so now, my original email is in regular blue text, his email is in red italic text, and my latest response is in bold blue text.

I give you a lot of credit for working at this.

Oh goodness, you must have the patience of a saint...

First, I have to say that it really, really bothers me that he is bringing up specific examples from years past and saying that it really changed his view of you. If that is the case, he should have talked to you then. Not waited years to bring it up. If he did bring it up years ago, then he should not be bringing it up now, at all. I understand how difficult that is. This is something I struggle with myself and my fiance. I keep repeating to myself that the past is the past, it made us, both me and him, who we are today. And I love him today, we are happy today, it doesn't matter how we got here. Granted, it's a lot harder when you're not happy/feeling secure in your relationship, but this is something he needs to work on. He can not start hurling past hurts at you now because he failed to heal them sooner. Honestly, this is a deal breaker for me (again, ironic, because I struggle myself, but struggle suggests I am working on it...). If he is not willing, TRULY WILLING to let go of the past, and the comfort that comes with the familiar (in this case, pain is familiar), then this relationship can go nowhere. I say that because I can see the damage it does. And honestly, if he kept bringing up the events from the past before you cheated, then he definitely played a part in the scenario that set you up for cheating...

Which brings me to my next point. I really dislike how he has completely washed his hands of any sort of culpability for the cheating. In my mind, he is still completely separating himself from what happened -- that anything he could have done before hand is completely irrelevant to your feelings and emotions that you had before what happened. Maybe I'm a little biased, because in my own situation, my fiance and I had an emotionally charged miscommunication, and then I buried myself in my pain and flung it at him to hurt him as well. I see the role I had to play in what happened, I take responsibility for the state of our relationship at the time, and also for the pain I inflicted on my fiance. Maybe there are cases where the cheating comes completely out of the blue, where everyone seems happy, healthy, and engaged with each other, but I personally don't feel this is the case with your boyfriend. I could be wrong, but this is just the way I see it.

I think that I felt that your starred comments were good. I didn't see any problem with them. What exactly were you looking for in them (or was that for your boyfriend?) I think a little tough love might be necessary if he is so unwilling to see his role in the relationship. Granted, it has only been a month, so I understand he is still grieving the loss of the relationship he thought he had with you, but at some point, he has to be willing to pick himself up, and start truly facing these things. Granted, I didn't want to see it myself, and probably would have hated him if he tried to make me see it before I was ready, but I think there must be a way to be able to bring him around, or at least start preparing him for it (because that will also be hard).

It does bother me that he couldn't be more understanding of your grief. It seems like a lack of empathy on his part (that and the whole "this is your fault, now fix it. I was perfect before this happened" that I get from his tone/words).

Oh, and his assuming that household ways meant orgies and calling what you did "your wanton ways" just... stuck in my craw. It's like he continues to talk down to you and belittle what you have done for him. Heck, he refuses to even see it.

Okay, sorry if this turned into a response just bashing your boyfriend. But I'm having a lot of trouble with his behavior. Normally, I feel extreme empathy for the one who has been cheated on, but his actions are just rubbing me the wrong way. I keep thinking "Yes, he's in pain, but..." There's something to be said for fair fighting, and I don't feel like he's doing that. I know it's a hard skill to master, and I suppose I should be more understanding because he cannot change over night, but I just.... I feel like he's taking advantage of the situation to feel sorry for himself for every little thing you've done wrong since you started dating, when really, he should have been trying to communicate and talk to you about all of these things sooner. In no way am I saying what you did was okay, but you already know that. Ugh, it's kind of hard for me, because I see what your boyfriend is doing, and I know I did all the wrong things and it took me a really, really long time to even start coming to terms with what happened and start moving forward. I guess I'm getting a little upset about it all because I don't want you to go through what I put my fiance through. I don't want your boyfriend to make the mistakes I made.

Take care

Yeah, this made my cons list (I called it "so g******* judgmental" and it got a 5). It will be something we'll have to work on. I just got a text from him:

He's doing it again, isn't he? I wouldn't have noticed that before... but I almost feel like he's saying he's not the one on trial, I am.

You got it--I am being protective of my baby sister and of my mom (who I feel like he's attacking indirectly by blaming things on "how we were raised"). Also, he knows me very well and so I think he has some basis to criticize me but he really doesn't know my sister well enough to criticize her, if that's even his place to begin with.

True; however, is a male role model with some faults worse than no male role model at all? Of course, it depends on the faults, but everyone has them and even the best parents pass some kind of issues on to their kids. Not that I'll stay with him just so my son has a male role model, but if it's a reason not to stay with him then I need to consider it carefully.

Which is why I told the truth... but it sucked.

I addressed this in my own (gentler) way in my email to him tonight, but I did borrow your wording about "owning" the decision .

I'll be the first to admit that this probably isn't very healthy. First, I will decide whether or not it is worth repairing. If I decide it is, and it doesn't work out, then I will feel personal failure. Not saying that's good, just saying that's what will happen. I feel personal failure for the cheating, of course. I know I can't make up for that by throwing everything I've got into it, but that's how I deal with things. It's my version of perfectionism. And, this sounds bad, but I like a challenge. College as a single mom, CPA exam, caring for my mom, managing her estate... I take these things head on because I think if I can just do this and do it right, I'll prove my worth to the world and to myself, not to mention find redemption for my mistakes. So, yes, a part of me wants to fix the relationship precisely because I know it will be hard and I need to prove myself. But, I'm not stupid and I know how to separate the important factors from the unimportant ones. I believe I'll be able to put this need aside when it comes down to actually making the decision.

His forgiveness certainly would help me forgive myself... but I'm not sure I want to wait that long. So, maybe once I figure out the reasons behind it I will begin working on forgiving myself. That seems like a logical place to start.

Thanks again for your input. It is very helpful.

I sent him the email, largely unchanged. I softened it up a little bit, but the main points stayed the same. Finding a balance between sensitivity for his pain (that I caused) and sticking up for myself has proven much more challenging that I ever would have thought.

RS, I owe you an answer and I will get to it, I promise. Just not tonight.

Got an answer to my email from last night - much better than I thought it might be since I did get a little harsher I guess in that last one.

I have been noticing that he mentions wanting me to understand or to see inside his mind a lot. So, I thought it might be good for both of us for me to try to describe to him what I imagine he's feeling like. I'm sure I don't fully understand and I'm sure there's a lot I'm missing, but he agreed that might be a good exercise. Is that? Or might it just incite more pain in him? What if I bring up something he hadn't thought of? Anyway, here's what I've got so far... Tsol and RS, I know the two of you probably have a much better understanding of the way it feels than I do, having been there yourselves, so maybe you can let me know how close I am?

I feel like I'm missing a lot - a lot that I could be getting and a lot more I haven't the slightest clue about. But, it's that time again and my brain is shutting off so... 'night.