How do you know when a relationship is worth saving?

Brianna, I think you get more than either of you are giving you credit for. At some point you both have to get to the point where, yes you made a bad choice and it sucks and it hurt you both. But I don't know if I see him giving you the credit for what you are doing today. Like right now we see him throwing everything he has against you, and sure he's upset, but I don't see him trying to show you any of the consideration you give him

Thanks, it comes from having a little boy... and a big one who sometimes acts like a little one

Yeah, that's not cool. He brings this up often; however, my unhappiness with his traveling comes up a couple times a year since he does it a couple times a year so of course, everytime that comes up, so does this specific example. He brought it up then, but it hasn't been resolved. His traveling and my reactions to it absolutely need to be addressed; it is one of the top issues in our relationship.

Yes, he has. If I decide to post our latest email conversation, you will see this even more prounounced. You're right, our relationship wasn't going perfect when the cheating happened. I understand how offended he feels when he thinks I'm trying to blame him for the cheating though, that must be very painful. I don't know how to approach this without him shutting down in anger. He has admitted he has emotional issues though, and I think through our emailing is beginning to comprehend that he's not the perfect boyfriend.

Yes, he had mentioned that he gets overwhelmed with the length of my emails and he can't tell which topics I'm just presenting my view on and which I really want a response on. So, I decided to star the ones I want him to respond to. That worked a little better, at least I got the responses I was wanting.

He has said that I have inspired him to "decompress his mind", by which he means, doing some soul searching. He is going to take a trip back home after the summer and has mentioned that he is going to revisit his past - the good and the bad. I hope this is the first step towards addressing his issues.

Bothers me too, I mentioned it to him in my last email.

I know, huh? I don't think he means to offend, he's just really into trying to use different wording for different things. He likes to write so he'll get out his thesaurus and find different verbiage but doesn't always think about the connotations they may have... what bothered me is that he said that "household habits" is a very open-ended term, I don't see how that is open-ended at all. Who would think "household habits" meant anything other than how you manage your home life? Whatever. He can be weird like that, I attribute it to the different cultures we were raised in. It's one of the reasons we have so many misunderstandings.

Honestly, considering what I did, I think he could have or could be treating me much worse than he has been. He never stopped to yelling or name-calling, and for that I'm appreciative. He honestly wants to try to work this out and, although he may not be the best communicator, he is trying and willing to make changes.

My last two posts have been short because I've been on my phone. I should get a chance to get back on my computer...sometime soon hopefully

A few thoughts that stood out to me:
Yes I think it's normal to want time alone in a relationship but it also seems normal to travel together. Having a young son makes that more difficult/expensive but I would hope that he becomes more open to the idea

I'm going to be the odd ball out here and I am biased on this but I don't think a poor/struggling relationship leads to cheating. It seems like the lesson were supposed to learn years ago, an eye for an eye leaves us all blind. I don't think it justifies it but it could be something that you used to justify it. (Are you dizzy yet ). Putting it into a different perspective "I've worked for 20 years and just lost my job. I'm broke. I can't get a new job. I decide to rob a bank and tell myself I need to do it to provide for my family". Obviously, robbing the bank wasn't the right choice and wasn't the only way to provide for my family, but I justified it in my head.
So back to cheating. If you say this situation and tell your bf that problems in the relationship helped justify the cheating (in your head), he hears it as blame. YES, he could have done better, he could have listened and communicated and on and on. But we don't always see/hear each other clearly in a relationship. We don't see priorities or problems at the same intensity level. While you might feel like you made your concerns clear he, for whatever reason didn't react the way you need to. He's sitting there while you "blame" (in his interpretation) him saying "well if we had this many problems, she should have said "bf, when you ___, I feel ___, I need ___ if this continues I may need to reevalute the relationship". And the crazy part is, neither of you are to blame for this part. He was looking for sos flags, while you were broadcasting on the radio. It just is what it is. Something that together, you can work on.

So a summary of all that mumbo-jumbo, keep the issues as separate as possible. If your talking about the who/what/where/when/why/hows of the cheating leave it at that. When you are talking about relationship issues, leave it at that. When one of you crosses that line say "I'm sorry for (my part in ___) but I really feel like we need to focus on ___ right now. Can we discuss that point at another time?"

Tsol, I don't think you're being an odd ball by saying that poor/struggling relationship doesn't lead to cheating. There is no justification for cheating. I hope you didn't interpret what i said as trying to give her a way out of what she did. I do believe, though, that a strong relationship, with strong communication, and where both parties are actively engaged in being proactive about the relationship, has a MUCH small chance of cheating than one that struggles with communication, problem resolution, and fair fighting. I just feel that her boyfriend feels like he was the perfect mate to her prior to what happened, and is refusing to see any negative role he may have played in their relationship (though it sounds like that's starting to change a little?). I agree with you that they need to try to keep things separate, work on one issue at a time. I guess I feel like it shouldn't be about blaming. It should be about accepting what happened in the past (all of it), and then working to make the relationship stronger. But I think he's going to have to be open to sharing the responsibility for problems in the past and to stop trying to one up her. Put them both on an even playing field to start moving forward together.

Tsol, I don't think we're really disagreeing. I hope you I didn't offend you?

Oh no, rs, I wasn't offended. I tend to get ranty and rambly on my phone. I was going off memories of what you and her bf's mother had said in previous replies. A year ago I would have probably been the one saying "well if this happened, there had to have been a (relationship) reason". Now it's just a touchy subject for me so sometimes I type while jumping off the deep end. But I do think were on the same page here. Having open, two-way communication definitely reduces the risk of these sorts of things happening

These things are so complex.

I just want to throw out there that I do not think what I did was right in any way at all. I still feel terrible about it. I'm not trying to justify that behavior at all. However, there must have been something going through my head that made me think it was okay, and I'm trying to get to that. There were a lot of reasons for what happened. The shaky ground our relationship was on to begin with was one of those reasons, not that it's a good reason, or that it even makes much sense (obviously, cheating wasn't going to fix our relationship, nor was it a good way to get out of it), but I think it was one of the reasons. Maybe reason is a bad word. Maybe factor would be a better word. Our relationship issues were a factor in what happened. One of many.

I am quite torn about where I should be standing with his behavior. I believe he genuinely wants things to be better. I genuinely want things to be better. I want him to be able to accept my apologies, I want to help him heal from the pain I caused. But, and especially in this limbo we're in right now (we're still on a "break" and he says he will come back if I tell him to, so basically he's left it up to me), I don't want to let the part he plays in our turmoil just fall through the cracks. If we're going to get back together, I have to have an idea that these issues will be resolved. I can't do that without being forward with him and asking him difficult questions directly. I have to know whether we are going to be able to make it work before I tell him, yes, come back. If I'm going to put this much work into fixing our relationship, I need to be sure. I need to know that our issues are resolvable. So, I am trying to find this balance between remorse and humility and strength and assertiveness and it's proving very difficult. Because even though I know I hurt him and made him very angry and feel very remorseful about that, it doesn't mean he doesn't make me mad and hurt me still.

Brianna,
I have just read through this discussion and the more I read, the harder it is to understand why you want so badly to make this relationship work--or why you think you want this relationship to work.

If he is leaving for months at a time and you really want a partner who will be around and available--and not out of the area for months at a time, it seems like you have found your deal-breaker. He isn't going to change and I don't see how he can be a great father figure to your child if he's gone for months at a time. It's not wrong for you to want someone who will be available for you when you need them--and he's being really selfish trying to convince you that it's purely your issue.

You have accepted that you have some problems and you are willing to work on them through medication and therapy. You also seem more than willing to take all the responsibility for your relationship. That doesn't work. It ALWAYS takes two people to make a relationship work. As long as he's set on blaming you instead of working on the relationship it can't really get better. You can't fix it alone.

Yes, you screwed up. Yes, you are responsible for that decision. But NO you aren't responsible for the whole relationship. You seem about as messed up as the rest of the world (But my house is full of people with ADHD and/or bipolar disorder and I'm the designated sane person and I'm not sure I qualify, so maybe I'm biased.) and it's no surprise that he seems to be about equally messed up. Neither of you had perfect parents (who did?) Neither of you has a perfect life. That's the way it is in the real world--perfect is a concept, not a reality. It's ok not to be perfect, what's not ok is to pretend to be perfect and start pointing fingers at others' imperfections. Especially when those "others" are inclined to accept that judgment.

I liked the book "too good to leave, too bad to stay" because it does help you sort through things in a neat organized way that ultimately leads to some sort of conclusion. Go through it chapter by chapter until you are comfortable with a decision.

BTW, the points you listed as reasons this guy is a keeper are pretty much true of most reasonably decent guys. You really should find someone who makes you feel like a princess, who cares about how you feel and doesn't belittle you. (Read the stuff about abuse in the book, I think you'll see something interesting.)

Bonnie

Really? Most decent guys have those qualities? Where are they?

We had the following text conversation this morning (I broke down and bought a software that would let me download my text messages from my phone for this precise reason) (you have to read it from the bottom up):

Sent: 2011-08-14 12:43:42
Not harsh... hurt.

Sent: 2011-08-14 12:42:46
Okay. We will not discuss it now.

Received: 2011-08-14 12:41:45
Gina, I don't know what the tone was with your text saying Fine, I read it harshly. Reserve yourself means pick what fight you want with me. I am not in a mood to discuss our relationship in terms of some standardised test right now.

Sent: 2011-08-14 12:26:45
Reserve myself? I don't even know what you mean by that. I shouldn't express my disappointment?

Received: 2011-08-14 12:24:42
Look, Gina, it isn't the time to start in on me about something like this. I am asking you to please reserve yourself, I am willing to build our relationship.

Sent: 2011-08-14 12:21:48
But you'll drop $100 at the bar in one night and that's worth it?

Received: 2011-08-14 12:20:54
Sorry Gina I do not feel that is needed unless it is free.

Sent: 2011-08-14 12:12:22
FIne.

Received: 2011-08-14 12:11:49
I don't want to pay 60.00 for a test. I took it before for free.

Sent: 2011-08-14 12:09:49
I think we should each take the Myers Briggs personality test. It is $60 each and you can take it online. Would that be something you'd be willing to do with me to help understand our communication/relationship issues?

-----------

We just had a telephone conversation regarding this text conversation which I want to summarize before I forget.

He has three main issues with my attitude in those text messages this morning:

1) Last winter and spring, when we were in counseling working on this stuff, he would download relationship questionnaires from the internet for us to go over together. It was usually a while before we could get to them (he says, a while before I would get to them). We usually wouldn't get too deep into them, we would run out of time or some other issues would come up and use up all the reserves we had for these talks. He even looked into taking the MBTI at his college, where he could do it for free, and mentioned that to me. Apparently, he expected me to take the next step and actually schedule it. I expected the same from him. I explained this, and using another example, explained how it seems with stuff like this, we each often expect the other to take the initiative. I believe it's his place to, he believes it's my place to. So, it never gets done. I said it was a communication breakdown, both of our faults. He seems to still want to lay most of the blame on me. Also, I explained that I thought MBTI would give us a lot more insight into our relationship than those free internet questionnaires did because it actually gives you a result and a detailed report. Those internet questionnaires didn't, we really just would go over our answers with each other and compare them.

I tried to tell him that I feel like I'm doing a lot to figure out our relationship and make the decision on whether or not it's going to work, but that I don't feel like he is doing much work himself. I asked what he was specifically doing. He didn't tell me, I don't think... ugh, this is frustrating because I can't remember important parts of the conversation. Anyway, he said he's giving me a second chance and he thinks that's something that he's doing that's pretty big. I said, yes, and I appreciate that, but it can't be the only thing you do... and I can't remember what he said to that...

2) He's offended that I'm telling him how to spend his money. But then he went on to start talking about how I selfishly buy myself 10 pairs of shoes a year but rarely spend money on him (and if I do, it adds on to the debt he owes me), and how he spends whatever extra money he has on me. He says, he earned it, and he should be able to spend it how he wishes. I agree with that, mostly. I responded that I wasn't really trying to tell him how to spend his money, just that I was hurt that a test that might help our relationship wasn't worth the money but multiple nights out at the bar each week were. Also, I told him I was going to offer to pay for his test, even though I'm more broke than he is nowadays, but now, after his response, I didn't want to. But, he seemed to think I was just telling him that to turn things around on him, or something.

3) He thinks I think it's all my decision whether we get back together or not. He wanted to remind me that he has a say in this too. Here, I got really upset. Not because of what he said specifically, but that he has, once again, misunderstood my emotions and beliefs. Of course I know he has a say in what happens. Of course I'm appreciative of the second chance he's giving me. But, he's told me that he's coming back, unless I tell him not to. That makes me think that he's made his decision, and I just have to make mine. It seems like almost every interaction we have results in a miscommunication. This is so frustrating. How do we ever solve our relationship problems if we have plenty of real issues topped with imaginary ones created by misunderstandings? How can two people communicate so differently? This is really discouraging.


Finally, just before the conversation ended, he said, he spent most of his free time doing stuff for me, that he spent a lot of time thinking about what made me happy (so much so, in fact, that one time I made the mistake of asking him if he was "co-dependent." He was extremely hurt, and still brings that up, and did today). He says he doesn't know what else he could have done. This makes me think he believes he was the perfect boyfriend. I tried to relay, as gently as I could, that sometimes I feel like he believes that most of our problems stem from me. That he's willing to work on helping me solve my issues, but not to work on his own issues. He said he was speechless, and then it was time for him to clock back in.

Writing is so much easier for me, I get so confused and flustered when we're talking on the phone. This conversation just happened. I hung up the phone and started typing. And I still can't remember everything that was said.

OH! I remembered something else. I've been summarizing my counseling sessions for him, emailing him after each one. You may have noticed in the posts above. There was one thing I held back from him after the last: that both my counselor and I think he might be projecting some of his own issues onto me. I chose to not tell him that because I thought he might not be ready to hear it. He mentioned that it bothered him that I wasn't telling him everything, so I told him that, and tried to provide a specific example, about how he lacks contentment just as much, if not more, as I do. He didn't seem too offended by the fact that we both think he is projecting, and I admitted that maybe all his complaining to me wasn't lack of contentment, just he needed to vent. I brought up an example of how I work on being contented, on just being appreciative of what I have. The example was about this rental house that I inherited from my mom which had a pipe burst due to my negligence in caring for it after she died and that was (and still is) a huge source of stress for me. (He's been wanting to me to try to sell the damn thing ever since it happened, but I decided to go ahead and try to fix it and rent it.) But, all through those months when everything was going to hell in that place, I kept reminded myself: it's just money, it's just money. My family is healthy. That's all that matters. I guess I never shared that with Allen, because all he heard was complaining. So, maybe we are both guilty of only sharing the bad things about our lives and not the good, and that makes us both seem discontented to the other.

Oh! Oh! One more thing. He asked if I've come to any conclusions or had any epiphanies over the last month or so that I've been working so hard on everything. I tried to come up with something (I've realized I'm very independent and that comes across to him as cold; he countered that, if I'm independent, why do I get jealous when he goes out or travels?), but I immediately wanted to take it back because even that is not very clear in my head (sometimes I'm independent, sometimes I'm not). I guess I wanted to be able to tell him, yeah, I've reached all sorts of great conclusions, here's what they are! But, the truth is, most things are still as muddled and confusing as ever, if not more so now that I'm focusing on them. I told him that and I told him I wasn't expecting the question and I told him that I haven't really sat down and thought about or written down what conclusions I've come to. I really wanted to tell him I'd come to conclusions, but I haven't, so I told him that.

Anyway, I don't know that any of this is very helpful or meaningful to you guys, I just needed to summarize the conversation because I get so frustrated when SO MUCH comes out of these conversations and I feel like I forget 90% of it, or get the conversation jumbled in my mind. It still is jumbled, even with the summary, but at least I got some of it written down. Maybe I should take notes during these conversations.

This is such a major issue in our relationship. Just to be fair, he has only left for months at a time twice in our relationship: the first when he went to Korea for 6 months at the beginning of our relationship, and he had that planned before we got together, and again this summer because he couldn't find a job decent enough here for him to even earn enough to live on. I don't know if that's a good reason. He's told me it's not something he plans on doing every year. I do believe he wouldn't have done it but for the money, although he does hate it here and love it there, so I kinda think he was glad for the excuse to get out of here during the hottest, most miserable months.

His response to the point I made about me feeling like I am getting all the blame will be pivotal. We got cut off before he could respond because he had to go to work, but I really want to know what he has to say about this since it seems to be a huge issue, and a lot of you have pointed out that you get the same impression from him so now I know it's not just that I'm getting defensive. We have another conversation scheduled for tonight after Oliver's in bed and after Allen gets off work.

I haven't started on Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay, because I'm reading this other book about the hook-up culture, which has been fascinating. I recommend it to anyone in my generation who has ever been confused about their sexuality, and to anyone who is a parent. I'm almost finished with that and then I plan to really get into TGTLTBTS. I really thought MBTI would be another really useful tool in understanding our relationship and how (and whether) we might make it work.

This is so hard... will it be this hard forever?

As I read this thread, I sense little progress is being made despite both of you saying you want to make the relationship work. I question his commitment because he relishes the role of victim. I question your commitment because a big part of your motive for a reconciliation is to lesson the guilt you feel and to enhance how you view yourself.

As I said previously, my suggestion is for both of you to be in therapy. Each of you would be responsible for writing out how you view the current status of the relationship -- what went wrong, what needs to change to make the relationship viable and how to communicate better. This summation would go to the therapists. Each of you would sign a release of information authorizing your therapist to provide copies of your records to the other therapist.

Should it appear a reconciliation is possible, the therapists would inform you of that fact and arrange for joint counseling with a third therapist, who would receive a copy of both of your files.

I recognize this course of action would be both time consuming and expensive. Nonetheless, I do not see that progress is being made and question if both of you are truly serious about reconciling.

Wellllll... I don't think the main reason I want to reconcile is because it will make me feel better about myself. I admit that's not a good reason, but, in my attempt to be honest with myself, I do recognize that perhaps it might be a factor in my desire to reconcile. The main reason I want to reconcile is because I love him.

However, the title of this thread is still applicable and the question is poses has only been partially answered. All of the things we've been discussing in this thread are things I'm taking into consideration.

He did answer me about whether he believes all of our problems are my fault. He doesn't; at least, not consciously.

Did I mention we're 4,000 miles apart and there are no counselors in the remote part of Alaska he's in? So that sort of complicates things, as far as me trying to get him into counseling. That may have to wait until he gets back.

Hey Brianna, just wanted to check in and see how things are progressing. Hope you're doing well!

Is Romantic Reconciliation Worth the Effort?
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...rth-the-effort

RS,
Why, thank you for asking!

Oh... things are, you know... confusing, as usual.

He and I have been getting along pretty great lately. We even have phone conversations about things other than our relationship. Those are so comforting. They are life like it used to be and like it's supposed to be. He's planning on coming back. He's been applying for jobs here and bought his plane ticket (he did buy the insurance so he can change it, though).

He knows I'm still working on making a decision. That bothers him a little since he's already decided he's willing to come back and give me another chance. I've told him it's not cause I don't love him, it's cause I want to be sure we have a chance at making it.

I've gotten through about seven chapters of Too Good To Leave, Too Bad to Stay. So far, it's telling me to stay. That's encouraging, but I haven't gotten to the chapter about "differences between you" or "betrayals and hurts". But it's a great book, well written, and it really helps to clarify all the concerns and hopes racing through my mind. She (the author) actually says that the pro-con list ("balance scale approach") is a bad idea, since it's like "putting puppies on a see-saw", nothing stays still long enough for you to properly consider it and some things belong on both sides. I told my counselor about that and he told me that that's probably true for most people but with a person who's mind is as analytical and methodical as mine is, it probably will work, to a degree anyway.

I guess I've mentioned that, in my heart, I absolutely want him to come back. I get excited when I think about seeing him again.

However, I've made decisions in the past based solely on my heart and they often don't work out so well. I want my head to have its fair say in this as well. My head is not so sure.

Gotta go to work. There's a ton more I could talk about but it'll have to wait.

Owie, ouch, ouch, ouch, ouch, ow, ow, OW! (read from the bottom up)

I'm sorry, but why is he broadcasting your business around town?? When my fiance and I went through our troubles, I felt the need to protect him from the scorn of others, and have told VERY few people the whole story. They do not know us, him, or our relationship, and I will not give them a chance to judge any of it. That is not their place.

What's more is that this is, again, in the past. He should not be bringing up the past to crucify you today. If he loves you for who you are, then he should realize that the events in your past made you who you are today. Maybe if your past was different, you wouldn't be the same person you are and maybe he wouldn't love who you turned out to be as much. He needs to stop enjoying being the victim (which, clearly he is enjoying more than we realized if he's telling every one in town!). And no, it doesn't come into play because of what you did. They are completely unrelated events, you are not who you were back then.

Tell him to leave the past in the past, that he needs to realize he is hurting you, not only by bringing all of this up, but by sharing your private dirty laundry with the world, and that he needs to give up the whole "completely innocent v. wanton ways' bull. This man is in no way the saint he portrays himself to be.

Perhaps it is time to cut contact until he returns to where you are. Then you can follow through with TheByz's advice, get into therapy, couples and both individual, and start making progress, because right now, I feel like he is digging in his heels. Honestly, I get the feeling his is trying to hurt you, because you hurt him. But he never learned that an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. I know what you did was wrong, but it's time to start moving forward, without taking jabs at you where ever and whenever he can.

Well... he originally wanted to keep the whole thing as private as possible. I was the one who told people, I told my close friends while I was up there. He told his best friend. Someone may have overheard something... pretty soon the whole town knows. That's how it is in a place like that. I don't know why it was getting discussed yesterday. He has told me that people will come up to him and say, hey, I'm sorry to hear what happened... I don't really think he's been broadcasting it or telling everyone who will listen, but I do think that now that people know, he isn't holding back discussing it with them.

Yesterday was just such a horrible day... shortly after that text conversation above I shut off my phone, which I never ever do. It was so nice though. I wasn't listening for the little ring it makes when I get a text message. I wasn't checking it every 2 minutes in case I missed the little ring. I may have to do that some more. I'm trying to decide on cutting off contact, maybe just for a week or something. I told him I'd sleep on it. I don't want to - I love talking to him, even just texting about stupid stuff on and off throughout the day. He's still my best friend and the only person I do that with. But, I know I can't go on living the way I was feeling yesterday. I've got a little boy who needs his mom to be there for him. (Cute aside: There was a note on one of his homework pages last night from his teacher that I didn't understand: "Please review test phonograms," and it was the final straw for me. I burst into tears. Oliver comes in and says, "Mom, what's wrong?" I say, "I don't know what test phonograms are." He says, "It's okay. You're alright, don't cry, you're okay, it's okay. Practice makes perfect. That's what my teacher says. We can ask my teacher." He is so freakin' cute and sweet. And smart. I took his advice and sent his teacher an email and asked her what "test phonograms" are and she responded, problem solved.) Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is I want to make things better with my bf, and I know that it's going to involve a lot of pain for me, that's just consequences of a bad decision, but just how much pain am I supposed to endure? And does it matter how much I'm "supposed" to endure? Because if I can't take it, I can't take it. I guess I oughta post the rest of the text conversation cause it got better - don't want to make him look worse than he is. You can read this from the top down.

I'm pretty confused. I don't know what I can reasonably expect of him; I don't know what he can reasonably expect from me. I'm scared of telling him certain things - important things like the answers I'm coming up with for the reasons for cheating, because they involve our relationship (duh) but he gets so hurt and angry when I even sort of bring our relationship into explaining it. I'm afraid of telling him how I really feel about him traveling. I did. I did tell him both of those things in an email night before last and I think that may be why, or partly why, he was so upset yesterday.

If anyone's made it this far... should I cut off contact with him for a week? That's what I'm considering. Just one week because longer than that is just too long.

I'm honestly beginning to wonder if I'm being too hard on him... I wonder if there's really just a personality clash between me and him (which is kind of weird to say, since I've never met him or spoke to him myself; for all I know we'd get along great). But I just find every time I read something by him, I get aggravated. I feel like I should have more compassion for him, because he's hurting and has been through a lot, but for whatever the reason, it's not there. The other issue is that I was probably way worse towards my fiance, but I'm not really proud of those days and avoid thinking about them. I realize it's hard to give advice, when all I want to really say is that if you're happy now, then it doesn't matter how you got there, except you guys aren't happy now, but what I mean is if you both feel like you could be truly happy again in the future, then stay together. But that's hard to, because negative emotions feel like they're going to go on forever. I'm getting stuck with this issue... I'm talking in circles and not making any sense...

But I do feel like a little time apart would do you both good right now, but that's my feeling on the matter. I know this is such a hard issue to figure out because it's completely emotional. Your rational mind is pretty useless right now...

I'm sorry I can't be anymore help, I'm getting myself confused...

That's alright, RS. Sounds like you're about as confused as I am! I told him yesterday I wanted a break from contact for just a few days. I'm shooting for Monday. It's weird and lonely and I hate it.

I've made it back. I've been following but I figured with my own things going on if I tried to reply I would end up triggering and replying more based on my situation than yours. Even though that's what I've been doing all along....I mean to say it would be less sensible and more emotional.

Taking some time to gather your wits can help. This is such an overwhelming situation sometimes a little bit of space really is needed.

RS,I was thinking about this because we sort of approached this from two opposite ends in reacting to our situations. You mentioned that you were vocal about it and I have so much of a tendency not to be. I think in a way our own personalities factor into how we react to Brianna's bf. Maybe because you aren't proud of your reaction when you see any similarities in anger or hurt that he's feeling you get angry because it reminds you of past actions. Whereas on my side because I sometimes feel like I didn't disturb enough ****, I will over-rationalize his feelings.
Ok end tsol playing therapist.

For the past...I get that he's recalling it. My bf had one previous relationship before we met and I didn't have much to go on with it. But what I had I analyzed. Even when I was doing it, I knew it didn't make sense. THIS WAS BEFORE I WAS IN THE PICTURE! WTH DOES IT MATTER? I know there were times that I tested his commitment to our relationship in the past year. And there were times when I hoped he would fail. I wanted an excuse to walk away because it had to be easier. Maybe, in looking at the past I was trying to find something that would finally be a deal breaker. In older posts he had said that he thinks you prefer one night stands. I think he is doing something similar to what I did. -Trying to find that undefendable flaw

But the before-me didn't last long. As I slowly found tiny pieces of sanity I focused more on our relationship. And I analyzed probably every female he had spoken to in the 5 years we had been together. Because, those are the things that matter.

My suggestion for sharing what you've been internally investigating would work a lot better if you were physically together. Like you could have a basket placed somewhere that's out of the way but you both know where it is. You could write out what you've been thinking/learning and place letters in the box. The he could read them when he feels ready. If there's something important you could let him know. Then he could ask questions or write back. Now this is sounding a lot like email. Maybe you could open a specific account and he could have that forwarded to a folder rather than his inbox. That way he sees it's there but if he's not having a great day he doesn't have to respond right away.

Brianna,If you look at the big picture. Before all this came into the situation and into the future, does the good outweigh the bad? You aren't "supposed" to endure any of it, that sounds too obligatory. You stay and work on it until the bad outweighs the good.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...harmed-another

Really trying to stay away from story telling....You have to remember one very important item. wether or not you love him. YOU have to reconcile for YOUR own reasons. not his or both of you. YOU. He is he his hurt and will go on hurting, there is only so much help he will accept from you before he starts to push you away, iregardless of your love, intention, devotion or any of it. The harder you to save the relationship, I mean really get in there try to make the horse drink, he will always walk away, and despite thirst and dehydration he will not drink to save his life, or relationship. As along as there are people around him the love and care about him. He will make his decision to love you back. One of your posts, you stated " he would come back if you told him to..." he has to want to come back, when your ASK him too....the important for him. He powerless around you, he loves you. But let him figure this out and come to you. If he can not come back to you, then remember......you reconcile with you. And yes I really do believe in a good partnerships, and they ALWAYS need help.

Thanks, Byzantine, for that article. It's good, I printed it out and am going to try to remember to do the things it said. Tsol sent me an article too a while back and it had some of the same suggestions, as far as being very specific about what you're sorry for exactly, so I have been trying to do a lot of that stuff already.

Yeah, I'm hoping he's just hurting and searching for answers. I'm hoping he'll stop and get over the past. There's nothing I can do about it... and he had an idea the types of things that were in my past when we got together, he just didn't know specifics. If he continues to bring it up, that's going to make things very difficult.

That's a great idea, our counselor actually suggested this, except he said a journal. I think we'll have to do something like this since oral communication gets extremely convoluted and confusing with us.

I had an epiphany this weekend. And it was not a pleasant one.

I had some friends over the other night for Taco Night - my favorite thing to host. I had a few drinks and stayed up until 3 am talking with them. Something occurred to me then. I don't like it, it scares me, and I definitely don't want to tell Allen. Here it is: for some time now, I've been questioning whether he and I are right for each other. My sister and I had a conversation about it about six months ago, when he was gearing up to leave for Alaska and he did something to piss me off. I told her that it sounds terrible, but sometimes I think I can do better than him. My sister agreed. Mainly, someone who's got a career (Allen doesn't really even want a career, he'd rather have the freedom that temporary, part-time jobs give him) and wants to marry me (Allen doesn't really believe in marriage, although he's said, "I've realized I'm probably going to eventually have to marry you," how romantic). Of course, those things are things that are on the con side of my list, so it's not that I haven't evaluated them. I'm just now really beginning to understand in the context of the cheating. Here's what I think happened: Allen was out of town. I had this vague notion of sort of looking around while he was gone to see what other options in terms of men might be out there. I didn't ever consciously say to myself, "I'm going to date or cheat on him while he's gone," but I did have these questions regarding the long-term feasibility of our relationship in my mind. The night the incident occurred, we were staying with an old friend of mine. I was telling her about him not wanting to marry me. As my sister and I prepared to go out, she handed me a heart-shaped chocolate and said something like, "Here's to finding someone to replace Allen." Although I think she was mostly joking, what she said hit home with me, and maybe I was subconsciously looking for someone to "replace" him while I was out. Problem is, I don't know how to date (this book I read called Unhooked confirmed that very few in our generation do know how to date) so in my drunken stupor I fell back into old habits of trying to "get" a man by hooking up with him.

I think that may be a huge part of what happened. And it wasn't just my friend that we were staying with. My sister has said she thought I could do better and even my mom, before she died, tried to hook me up with one of her male nurses. I'm not happy about this answer. I hate it, in fact. Everyone has doubts about their relationship, but how can I think I can "do better"? What is wrong with me? And how am I ever going to tell him? If that's the answer, it will only hurt him more.

I guess I always knew the answer wouldn't be anything pleasant, but this... this is just awful.

You don't tell him that you think you can "do better", that would hurt. But you CAN say that you have concerns "regarding the long-term feasibility of our relationship" if that's how you ultimately feel. People grow and they change as they do. Maybe you've grown in different directions. A lot of my posts are made with the assumption of you staying together, and I remember I said that would be the case, because that's where I am. But that doesn't mean that's the right answer for you. Is lacking marriage (voluntary) and a stable career a deal breaker for you?

I'm having a lot of difficulty figuring out what my deal-breakers are. I'd certainly like to have someone with a career and who was gung-ho about marriage, but I don't know that's absolutely necessary for me to be happy. Ended the communication break today; it's been nice to have him back. We had an email exchange this week which didn't go too well though. I also wrote him a 10-page letter last night. That was brutal; my poor hand muscles. I could post that email, but basically I told him straight out that if he doesn't start respecting my feelings more, I can't stay in the relationship. Counseling session this morning felt really good, I really felt like we got somewhere this time. Which reminds me, I had better write him my weekly summary of it. I'm on Xanax tonight so I'm not feeling very typative. Haha, I just made up that word.

Here is a portion of an email exhange we had the other day. It is missing the first two sets of emails, but I think you can get the general idea. My text is in blue, his is in green italics.

Quote:

We differ on this point. Introversion is not a character flaw. It is an immutable personality type. Sure, you can shift slightly on those types as you age, but nonetheless, it is wrong to make value judgments about something that is an inherent part of who a person is. There is nothing wrong with being an introvert. I can work on being friendlier and I promise to with your friends and family but I do not want to change who I am. I cannot anyway. Seeing a personality type as some sort of flaw is your problem though. Changing to “better” myself or my relationship is ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with being an introvert to begin with. Also, introversion is not the same as shyness. Shyness is a product of being an introvert, yes, but they are not the same thing. Introversion simply means you recharge and get your energy from being by yourself, not with other people. That is unchangeable. Shyness is often a result of being an introvert, naturally. Shyness can be changed or adjusted, but introversion cannot. Yes, I want to improve myself and my relationships and I will continue to work on my shyness and social anxiety but I will not attempt to change my basic, inherent personality type. I agree, there is nothing wrong with being an introvert. I am one myself. I love it. I would never want to change it. I suppose I was referring to shyness. I apologise for that misunderstanding on my part. I do recharge from being by myself. That is one thing I cherish more than I can even verbalise. Introversion is a personality trait, I know that. I misused words or misrepresented myself. Does that help clear up the topic? I am sorry I hurt you. I accept full responsibility for what I did. I was drunk and stupid and weak. However, it is obvious you are not ready to hear the answers I have to give you so I am going to stop trying until you tell me you are ready to hear them, if ever. Perhaps you don’t really need the answers. Is it enough for me to tell you that it was 100% my fault, I’m so so sorry to have caused you all that pain, and I will work as hard as I can to regain your trust and convince you that it will never happen again? Could we just leave it at that? I will still try to fish out the answers for myself but maybe you don’t really need to know what they are. I guess I do not want to hear the answers. Maybe I don't need to hear them. Honestly, I am afraid to hear them if you haven't told me yet. I am afraid of what they are, I am afraid of how i may react. I am already devastated over it so maybe I shouldn't know the whole reason. As long as you promise you will work at regaining my trust and help heal the wounds I will be fine. At least for now, the urge is there for me to make meaning of it all because I have trouble with that, Gina. I never said I felt unloved. Why are you putting words into my mouth and then attacking me for them? I said I felt undesirable. You can’t try to convince me I didn’t feel that way because I did. All I ever wanted was an apology. An apology that I got hurt when you fell asleep on me. An apology that you wrote eloquently about other beautiful girls and I was hurt by that. An apology that I was hurt by you spending your last night in Talkeetna in September 2008 with your friends and not me. You don’t even have to be sorry that you did those things; just sorry that I was hurt by them. Who cares if you had a good reason to fall asleep? I was hurt by it; that’s all that should matter. Instead, you get defensive and try to talk me out of feeling the way I feel. You refuse to see any of the problems you have caused in the relationship. You put everything on me, except for a few things you are willing to admit. You admit depression and insecurities, maybe they are easier for you to admit than the other issues I’m trying to share with you. You can’t open your mind to other possibilities. You are unwilling to accept any of the complaints I make. You don’t really listen; you just argue. I mean, you read what I write and consider it, but you don’t really make an attempt to put yourself in my shoes and feel what it feels like to be me. You point out what’s wrong with me. You say I have issues. You make me think the feelings I have are unreasonable or irrational or crazy. I’m done playing into that. I did for a long time, I would discount my feelings as well because I wanted so badly to get along with you. Well, not anymore. I am not crazy or unreasonable or irrational. I am a person who gets hurt by another person. All I want is some kind of acknowledgment from that person that he hurt me. I am not trying to put words into your mouth, Dear. That is just how I read into the messages. I apologise. Will you apologise for spending all that time on the computer and reading? I am okay with you doing that stuff, I support it, I just can't be happy if it is every night and I am neglected. I do get defensive, I admit that and I will work on not doing it so much. I apologise. I can open my mind though, I just think we both have our "go to" problems. Both of us do. I also discounted my feelings. I don't want to do that anymore. Can we both promise to talk about and listen, listen is big I believe, to each others feelings and problems regularly from here on out? I too get hurt, I suppress it for the sake of others and that isn't healthy. I promise to focus on that, on acknowledging your emotions/feelings if you promise to do the same with me. That is a legitimate request, right? What this letter has revealed is that you are unwilling to accept any responsibility for the problems in our relationship. You say you are, maybe you think you are, but you’re not. Maybe you do not see the major problems that you exhibit in emails like this. When you say things like “If I made you feel unloved than I would have to say you either have high expectations of what love should be or you are incapable of experiencing something that could be closely related to real love and not lust,” I see a problem much deeper than just how desirable you make me feel. I don’t see any remorse from you that you hurt me. I just see you trying to defend your actions. I see problems that are nearly insurmountable. Emails like this one make me doubt we’ll ever get past them. I will always be sorry and remorseful and pained that I cheated on you. I’m sorry that that is how all of this had to come to light. I’m still willing to give our relationship a chance, but you have to take a serious look at how you deal with my emotions and whether you are willing and able to change. I’m sorry to be this harsh, but these are things I need to know. I know some of your unwillingness to accept responsibility is because of the cheating. Know that I am not asking you to accept any responsibility for that. I also read in your last letter that it is difficult for you to look past that at the other issues in our relationship, and I understand why that is, yet I am asking you to do so. I can’t stay in a relationship where I feel subjugated because you don’t understand my emotions. Neither can I. I believe we both agree with that 100%. Let's work this out. i ask the same things from you as you have asked from me. I admit I have been emotional void over the past months or year. I apologise, Gina, I hope you can accept that. Please, please, please see that we both have been hurting over time prior to the July 3rd incident. I am tired and beaten and just want to work on being a couple full of love and happiness. Also, don’t compare yourself to the other men I’ve been with. That is irrelevant. Yes, you are better than any of them, but that doesn’t mean I should just accept the way you treat me because it’s the best I’ve had. The mind goes through many thoughts when something like cheating takes place. Sure some, most maybe, of them are irrational or irrelevant but it happens. It is the heart and the mind struggling for reason in a terrible event. It has happened to me in the past, I feel like I die when it happens. I feel like it is a slow death trying to find reason in it. I ask questions and make connections such as the above, about being better than the others, because I can't understand what something would make a person go to that degree of betrayal and assault one someone else. I’ve come to some realizations over this “break” from communication with you, through this email, and during my session with Carl this morning. They are important and they all revolve around how you respond to my needs, emotional and physical. This is a deal-breaker for me. I think it can be changed, with work and commitment from each of us, but if it doesn’t, I cannot stay. I agree that it can be changed. Please, know and believe I want to evolve and deeper our relationship. We both have the same wants and needs it seems. That is great, it can be improved. I promise to devote my time equally to your emotional and physical needs as well as my own. Will you do the same for me? I too will fight until I can't fight anymore. I love you. Goodnight, Gina.

Whaaaaat? I'm blown away; he's like a different person.