[Robnew]

Hi

My ex is an admitted avoidant, and since knowing her I've become aware that her actions and words are often very different, and even sometimes opposite, to how others may act. As a result, it's sometimes hard to know how to communicate in a way that shows I respect her choices and decisions, but at the same time care about her and am not abandoning her. For example, if she says she wants to leave me, and I say ok, I don't want that, but I respect it, she takes it as rejection, and that I don't care. On the one hand she withdraws from too much intimacy and emotional communication, but on the other, whilst she sometimes appreciates it, she also takes my less emotional, and less needy nature, as a sign that I'm not that bothered, even though I tell her otherwise.

So, I'm looking for a little help and guidance from those who can relate to how she feels, as to how or even whether I should reach out to her or not.

Firstly, whilst she was the one who wanted a relationship rather than something casual, she admits to avoidance and abandonment issues, and a tendency to run, but said she wanted to try not to. She hates anything overly gushy, emotional and romantic, even though she'd push me to admit my feelings, and has admitted she'd run a mile from the word "love". She also has seemingly random mood swings, but I've never seen her get really angry, although she has given the odd sign but then seems to stop herself. She appears to internalise it and withdraw, and then calms down and apologises quite quickly.

We broke up after an argument where I uncharacteristically reacted to one of her moods and shouted. As a result she said she'd move out, and I did little to stop her. Not that I didn't care, I just knew she wouldn't listen while angry. In hindsight I think she may have stayed had I tried harder to persuade her, as a few days after moving out she called, and one of the things she said was that I didn't fight for her.

However, since breaking up we kept in contact and enjoyed several weeks of getting on really well, and even talk of getting back together. She even called and cried, and said how much she missed me, and couldn't concentrate on her work and studies but, when I suggested reconciliation, she was uncertain. Her main reason was that she said she really loved being with me, but that the periods in between, when we were apart, we're literally so unbearably painful for her, that she didn't think she could face it, although she was open to trying to find a way to manage it.

Anyway, things seemed to be going well, and she enjoyed hanging out. If anything she complained that I was a little guarded, but always pulled back a bit if I tried to move things forwards. The last time we met was also friendly. She said she was still confused, and so I said that was ok, and that if she didn't want to get back together I'd understand, wouldn't pressure her, and could handle rejection, at which she snapped a little and said she wasn't rejecting me, and was just confused and needed time. We left on good terms, and even made plans for further "dates".

However, since then things changed dramatically. Communication became more sparse and functional, rather than friendly. During all this time I have never chased her, which on occasion she seemed a little frustrated by. After a couple of weeks of this withdrawal I thought I'd pre-empt a complete deterioration, and called to say that I knew she was under pressure with work and studies, and so perhaps I should give her a bit of space and not add to her stress. I thought she might welcome that, but she seemed to be a bit agitated and angry about it, and hung up on me.

I left it a couple of weeks before sending a text asking how she was, and another a week later, telling her about something I saw that she likes, but these were ignored. I half expected her to reply telling me to stop contacting, as she has no trouble being outspoken when she's angry, but have heard nothing.

Ordinarily I'd leave things, as I'd assume that when someone ignores you, contacting them would be annoying, but I have no idea how someone with avoidant emotions, and abandonment fears may feel about it.

So, on the one hand I don't want her to think I've given up on her, but equally I don't want to make her resentful by maintaining contact when she just ignores it. Is silence a sign to get lost, or leaving the door open to push me and see if I'll be persistent?

With anyone else I'd leave it to her to make contact if she wants. However, I know from experience that she gets nervous and scared about reaching out, as no matter how much I tell her otherwise, she always assumes that I don't think about her, and have moved on after a few days of not speaking. She also takes the fact that I don't chase her as a sign that I don't care, even though I've told her it's just the way I am.

I guess then I'm asking for any help or guidance as to what, if anything, I should do. Should I take her lack of any response as a silent request to leave her be, or as a slightly open door to maintain contact while she regains some balance. It feels like a catch 22, as I don't want to upset her, but nor do I want her to think I've given up on her, as she's always been really nice, and thoughtful to me, even when things were difficult for her and she had her mood swings.

[Skeezyks]

Hello Robnew: I'm sorry I cannot offer anything substantive with regard to your concerns. However, I noticed this is your first post here on PC. So... to PsychCentral… from the Skeezyks! May the time you spend here be of benefit.

The only comment I guess I would offer here is, you opened your post by writing that your ex is an "admitted avoidant". I don't know if that means she's been seen or is being seen by mental health professionals & has been given that diagnosis, or if that is simply her take on how she feels she interacts with the world, so to speak. (I'm presuming this is not a label you came up with for her.) My personal prejudice is that we're always on shaky ground when we try to self-diagnose. Even mental health professionals often don't get it right. And, even when they do, mental health diagnoses can-&-do change over time. It's not like having physical illness where you either have it or you don't. Even the professionals can-&-do often disagree with regard to a person's correct diagnosis.

That said, my particular perspective with regard to what you wrote is that trying to continually second guess what your ex does or does not want from you, or how she is or is not likely to react to however it is you decide to try to handle a given situation, is a prescription for ongoing frustration & unhappiness. From the sound of it, your ex does have some mental health issues she's struggling with, whatever it is they may be as far as a diagnosis goes. She is the only person who can remedy that situation. She has to recognize that she has a problem & then figure out what she has to do to heal (perhaps with the help of mental health professionals.) Your trying to constantly be constantly modifying your approach in the hopes of not "pushing her buttons" is I fear doomed to failure. It feels to you like a "catch 22" because that's what it is.

So I don't know whether you should leave her be, at this point, or try to maintain contact. It may well be that whichever way you choose to play it, it will end up being wrong somehow. However assuming that you still want to try my thinking, for what it's worth, would be just keep in touch periodically. Don't simply leave her be. But don't press her either. Just send occasional notes, as it sounds like you've been doing just to let her know you're still there & still interested. At some point, she'll either respond, she'll tell you to get lost, or you'll just tire of the game & decide to move on yourself. I wish you well...

[Robnew]

Hello to you too, and thank you so much for taking the time to reply and giving me your thoughts, I really do appreciate it.

She hasn't been formally diagnosed, but has admitted to certain things, and behaves in certain ways, and has studied psychology, so I suspect she has some self awareness. Perhaps if I list them you could give me your opinion.

1. She wants a relationship (in fact she left me before because she misunderstood and thought I didn't), but admits that she has a tendency to run when things get close, but really wanted to try not to this time.
2. She has alluded to some past abuse.
3. She hates anything overly gushy, emotional, and romantic, despite sometimes trying to push me to admit my feelings.
4. Even when we lived together she preferred not to sleep in the same bed.
5. She preferred sex to be recreational, and even purely for my enjoyment, and didn't like it if it appeared too intimate.
6. She would have random mood swings, where she'd withdraw and get into a funny headspace, but would recover quickly and apologise if she was rude to me.
7. She would seek male attention, but have no respect for those who chased after her or got emotional.
8. She didn't drink or party much, and preferred a quiet night in.
9. She tried to end things before by just being "busy" or "tired"' but was easily persuaded back. She would later admit that the reason was that she loved being together, but found the time apart in between to be unbearably painful. This was mitigated when we started living together, which she instigated, although that no doubt triggered some intimacy fears.
10. She openly admitted she had strong abandonment issues, and to taking things wrongly as a sign of rejection. This was despite putting on a strong front and appearing independent, and yet also admitting to neediness at times.
11. She also repeatedly said how her thinking was black and white.
12. She had insecurities, and for no reason would say that she was worried I'd get fed up of her or find her boring.

So, despite splitting up, I would like to stick with things and give them a try, for a number of reasons.

She was always open about her difficulties and, despite her moods, was always loving, respectful and kind towards me. Apart from the odd withdrawal we got on great, she was really happy, and often spoke about the future, and wanted me to say I'd never leave her or give up on her and, given the opportunity, I wouldn't, and would stick by my promise to her, as I was really happy too.

One of the reasons we got on so well was because I was not the needy, clingy type, who would chase after her. In fact she said that I was the only person she knew who didn't react or get bothered by her moods, and the only person who really understood her. Plus, I'm the first to admit I have my many flaws too, but she was happy to accept me for who I am, although sometimes she'd say I was a bit aloof and guarded with my feelings. So she'd push for closeness, but then shy away if she got it, but I was used to that and it never bothered me.

The break up was not about any loss of feelings, and more a knee jerk reaction to me getting angry at her. If I'm honest I think she took an opportunity to run. In fact, after the split, she said she thought I was losing interesting, and so perhaps her leaving was a pre-emptive strike. In hindsight, had I tried to persuade her she would have probably stayed, but instead I told her I didn't want her to leave, but would respect her decision, which came across as not fighting hard enough.

Despite having no ties to the area, and never living there before, when she moved out, she moved to somewhere virtually walking distance from where I live.

In the one conversation we had about reconciling, her only objection seemed to be the same as before, in that she really misses and enjoys the time we spend together, but hates the time apart. When I suggested taking things slowly, she got snippy at me being "cautious".

So, she seems to still have the same feelings, but feels conflicted. I genuinely understand her reasons, but feel I may have added to her caution and confusion, by trying to be understanding and taking things slow. Most people would see this as being patient and considerate, but I know from experience she would easily read this as possible rejection.

Funnily enough it would be easier if she told me to get lost at my occasional attempts to reach out, Like I said, I'm not one to chase, and believe in respecting someone's decision, leaving them alone, and moving on. However, when someone reaches out, and tells you how much pain they're in to be apart, but can't quite walk over the line, it's hard not to want to try and help them get there.

I also think I made a misstep in saying I'd give her space, as she didn't ask for it, and was just backing off, which may have been temporary. Either way, she got angry at that, which now makes it even harder, if not impossible for her to reach out.

So, ideally all I'm looking for initially is some help in overcoming that blunder, and the best way to open the door and get her to communicate again. At least that way she can say if she really doesn't want to try again, as in the past she's always been able to tell me that without worrying that I'll make a fuss about it.

Thanks again, you have helped. The usual advice is to make no contact and leave it to her, but that just seems a bit passive aggressive and manipulative, especially with someone with abandonment fears, as it's like trying to play on those fears. So, given that I'm quite thick skinned, I guess I'll drop the odd casual line, to let her know I'm still there, and she can either respond, ignore, or tell me to get lost and leave her alone.

[Robnew]

As an update, I haven't tried to reach out to my ex again, as although I've wanted to very much, I've taken her lack of response as a desire to be left alone, and don't wish to upset her or disrespect her wishes/boundaries, even though I can only assume them. As such, I've reconciled myself to the fact that getting back with her is likely impossible. Now that my mind is clearer though, it's dawned on me that I'll likely have another situation to face. That being that when she moved out, she chose to move less than 5 minutes away, and so it's inevitable I'll run into her at some point, and would like any heads up on how to make that as least awkward as possible.

I have my own thoughts, and some advice from others, but it all largely depends on a best guess as to the situation at hand. As such, I have a question, that being, is there any difference between feelings of intimacy/being smothered, and that of rejection/abandonment, as it may help. I get that the usual reaction is to run in the face of either, but am curious if the feelings behind it differ, depending on which it was.

Whilst I'm sure my initial break up with my ex was motivated by a need to run, it seemed to be short lived. From what she said to me afterwards, when we were still talking and on good terms, I think it was largely motivated by a fear of potential rejection, rather than fear of intimacy. She moved out, and for no good reason moved very close by, and was quick to re initiate contact, and even bring up potential reconciliation. So it appears, at least initially, that she knew her decision was impulsive, and was leaving the door open.

Being aware not to pressurise her, I didn't go overboard in my desire to reconcile, and said we could take things slowly, and that I'd respect and understand it if she felt she couldn't. It seemed, rather than appearing comfortable by my lack of pressure, she was a little impatient with it at times. That said, when I tried to move things forward, she'd back off, and yet when I said I'd accept it if she didn't want the same, she quickly said that wasn't the case, and was just confused, and was reluctant to close the door.

It was ultimately only the pressures of work and exams that caused her to suddenly pull away sharply, as things were on really good terms prior to that. The silence and ignoring only came when I responded to her withdrawal by saying that I'd give her space, which made her angry.

Given that I never hassled her to change her mind, and only said I wanted to reconcile, and that I said I'd accept if she didn't want to, would that likely have led to her feeling concerned about rejection? Would her agitation at my offer of giving her space have merely been annoyance as she was distancing anyway, or misinterpreted as me deciding not to simply back off, but give up, and thus further rejection?

I ask because I try to avoid rushing to apply labels inappropriately, as tempting as it may be. And so, whilst I know that her abandonment fears played a part, there were other, normal factors too. For example, apart from a little hesitance and uncertainty, she was making steps to reconcile, without any pressure from me, and so was not being avoidant at all as far as the relationship was concerned and, if anything seemed to want me to push a little harder at times. In fact, confusion and uncertainty is exactly what I'd expect from anyone, in the face of a slow and cautious approach from me. Perhaps I was just as guilty of inadvertently giving mixed signals, by automatically assuming avoidance was the main/only issue, and treading too carefully?

It was eventually only external factors, such as work and exams that resulted in the big push away, and that is how anyone might act, avoidant or not, if they were in such a position. So, whilst there's no doubt that she has very strong avoidant traits, is it possible I assumed they played more of a role than they actually did?

Not that it makes much difference to where things are now. However, given that I'll likely run into her at some point, it would help to know how best to handle that, as I'd rather it was no more awkward than it need be. Regardless of anything else, she's a nice person, and I do care for her very much, and want her to be happy no matter what.

In a normal relationship that's easy. I have enough experience to know that when one ends as a result of an argument, with feelings still intact, there's an initial period of to and fro, which either results in a quick resolution, or another blow up and/or withdrawal. In the majority of cases, after leaving the other person to cool down a bit, they eventually reach out again, but it's almost always best to leave it to them.

That's where I am now. However, it would obviously make things easier, and much less awkward, if there was some contact prior to any possible bumping into each other. Ordinarily I'd leave it to her to make contact if ever she wants to, whether avoidance is the issue or not. My issue though is, if avoidance wasn't the key issue, and she does in fact cool down, then it will certainly play a part in her ability to reach out, which she likely won't if rejection is her main fear. Having spoken to some other avoidants, it's also been suggested that I do reach out occasionally, if only to let her know it would be welcomed, but not expected or an obligation, so she feels safe to do so if ever she wants.

So I guess my question is, from what I've written, is it likely that any avoidance on her part is due to fear of intimacy/smothering, or fear of rejection? Would any reaching out on my part be received differently, depending on what the underlying fear was? If so and it's the former, then I'd imagine it's straightforward, and any contact on my part, would serve no useful purpose, and would likely only have a negative effect. If the latter though, it might make any future crossing of paths a little easier, as long as it's done right. That in itself is also hard, and so it would also help to know how I could do that in a way that was sincere and couldn't be misinterpreted negatively.

It's a tough call, as I don't wish to upset her by either making unwelcome contact, or appearing to just dismiss her, as there was never any bad feeling in the break up. We always got on really well, she was largely affectionate, if a little guarded, and neither of us have wronged the other in any way, and we've both acted in a kind, friendly and respectful way towards each other since we broke up. The awkwardness that exists now, is solely because she pulled away and went silent, without explanation, and my subsequent offer to give her space. As such, even though reconciliation may not be realistic, it would be nice to at least overcome that awkwardness if possible, for the times we might run into each other.

What do YOU want?

I wouldn't try to psychoanalyze. If you do, you're likely to squash any relationship before it even has a chance to begin.

That said....she sounds like me (and a lot of women I know...too many for it to be a "disorder" or "mental illness"... :-/)

We like to know where we stand. We'll push men away to test their resolve. We'll argue to see if they're too weak and run. We'll tell them we suck so that they can tell us we're wonderful. We'll tell them they're too good for us.

We need firm boundaries and the assurances that, no matter what we do (within reason, of course) you're there to stay.

Basically, you need to be a saint and not really mortal. You need to be so self-assured and confidant that you border on obnoxious.

It's a wonder people like this find each other really.....

I'm kind of sorry you're not connected. To me, you're perfect for each other. I sincerely mean that. However...I just say that based on what you said here, and I could be totally off the mark.

[Depressed-Fiance]

I can relate to this having been on the receiving end of the silent treatment by my ex.

It's horrible and leaves you feeling like you mean nothing to them and you feel ignored, unwanted and basically quite disrespected.

[Robnew]

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post Sophiesmom, I really appreciate it.

The first question is easy to answer, I want her back, no doubts.

Without overly generalising, I also agree that she sounds like many women I know too, and on that basis things would be easy, and I'm sure we'd get back together. However, regardless of what part they might play, she definitely does have other issues.

She admits to strong abandonment fears, and a tendency to run, although I've always been able to tempt her back. She has the odd random mood swings, where she shuts off totally, as well as the symptoms I listed above. Perhaps the most extreme symptom, that she's admitted to me, are strong feelings of physical pain and distress that she gets when we're apart, even if only for a couple of days. You would never know it, as she puts on a tough front, and hides it well, but it was always her main/only reason for wanting to end things in past, and for being unsure about getting back together this time.

That said, in every other respect you're spot on. She openly admits to needing/wanting firm boundaries, and to know that I'm the one in charge. If she' s ever rude or disrespectful, she's quick to apologise. She says that I'm sometimes a bit aloof and not very emotional, and calls me a bit an a-hole sometimes, but equally says that's why we get on so well, and that I understand her, and know how to handle her moods.

She also does test me, to see if I'll back down and let her get away with things, but never too extremely, and so sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't.

So yes, she has pushed me away in the past, but she's never ignored me like this, and so I've always been able to pull her back, with pretty much no resistance on her part. As such I was aware that whilst her reasons were real, it was also for reassurance.

So yes, in most ways she's like a lot of women, and so I was confident we'd work things out. In fact we seemed to be, and she was looking forward to doing more things together. Normally I'd have been more pushy, which usually works with her but, with her exams due that week, I backed off and said I'd leave it to her, and wait until they were done.

At that point, I'm prepared to accept that any confusion on her part, was as much down to me taking things slowly, which she'd just as likely see as hesitance on my part, rather than consideration of her other pressures, but that could have been overcome with time. However, due to the stress, upset and confusion about us, she'd been unable to study, and so had to defer the exams, which was a huge blow to her, and from there she withdrew, as the last time we spoke was when I called and said I'd give her some space, which didn't go down well. Of course I don't know whether that was due to anger at me due to her exams, or confusion/upset at her thinking I was just backing off, as she sounded as much confused and agitated, as angry, and has ignored me totally since.

So yeah, I agree, in many ways we are perfect for each other, and I'm 100% convinced that if we were connected and able to communicate then we'd be back together, but for now that seems impossible.

Right now, I've tried to open the lines of communications, but had no response. I'm pretty certain that it's down to one of three reasons. Either she's angry at the situation/me for her exams, and so is shutting me out entirely. Or she's not angry, but wants to try and move on, but can't do that and talk to me, as she knows I'll draw her back. Or she's still confused and needs to cool down and get her head together.

Obviously the last is preferable to me, but that holds its own problems. Given my somewhat aloof nature, and her insecurities, even if she does cool down and decides she wants to try, she'll be convinced that I've already moved on by now, so would find it almost impossible to reach out.

So, whilst I'm convinced things would work out if we were communicating, I have no idea how to re-open the lines of communication whilst she's ignoring me.

[hvert]

I'd wait until you run into her and just say "Hi," pleasantly. It sounds a little complicated and intense with a lot of mind reading. You aren't dismissing her - you've let her know where you stand and it is up to her to respond if she is still interested. Guessing what other people are thinking is exhausting. At a certain point, we don't have a choice but to base our response on what they say and do, not what they might be thinking.

[Robnew]

You're right Depressed-Fiancé, being ignored is a horrible feeling. How long has it been for?

Whilst there's little I can say to fix things, if your partner is avoidant, then perhaps I can offer some consolation.

Unlike most people, who might ignore someone they don't like, those with avoidance issues most often push away the people they like and care about the most. Their abandonment fears are so strong, that it can be unbearably painful for them when these fears are triggered by closeness and intimacy, such that they have no choice but to run, withdraw and hide.

So, rather than meaning nothing, or being unwanted, it usually means that you mean a lot, and are very much wanted, but the stronger that wanting is, the greater the fear of losing it, and so the stronger the need to pull away.

If you were truly unwanted, and meant nothing, then they'd be indifferent, and have no reason to ignore you, as you couldn't hurt them.

Not much consolation I know, but it can be a little easier once you know not to take it personally.

All of what Robnew said....

It's also possible that she has other issues that you're not aware of....You would have to push hard to get her to tell you what they are though...I would wait until school is done with, though, if it's not.

I would imagine that she'll reach out when she thinks you want nothing more to do with her...women like us are messed up that way

I know you know that this is the most trying kind of relationship to be in. I do sympathize.

[Robnew]

Thanks again, it really helps.

School is an ongoing thing, as she works full time in quite a senior management position,and studies in her spare time. I do know her studies are very important to her. She has a masters degree already, is studying for another, and wants to do a PhD as well. She absolutely hates anything less than top marks, and is a perfectionist in that regard.

So, I'm pretty sure there's nothing else, as we were living together until the break up.

Well I'm working on the hope that she reaches out, but it's hard to tell. We split before, over a year ago, over a minor argument, and I never heard a word, but when I contacted her a month later she was fine, and open to meet, but I didn't follow up and never heard from her either. It was only when I contacted her a few months later that we got back together, almost as if nothing happened. So I've always been the one who's had to initiate.

That said, we were much closer this time, and after she moved out I never expected to hear from her. However, she did initiate contact, a week or so later, with a couple of drunk calls, which is what kept us in contact until she withdrew entirely. Anyone else, and I'd expect a drunk call at some point, but sadly she rarely drinks.

Given that she called me crying, a month after we broke up, worried that I'd lost interest and found someone else, even though we were talking most days and making plans, she'll almost certainly think I've lost interest already. That will make it twice as hard for her to reach out, unless she's sure she'd get a positive response, as she's terrified of rejection. Ordinarily I'd just contact her, as that's always worked, but then she's never ignored me before, and would normally never do anything she considered rude or disrespectful to me, so it's hard to know if that would just push her further away now.

Haha, thanks for the sympathies, it is trying at times. Mostly though it's ok, as she's aware of some of her issues and behaviours, and apologises when she gets snappy, and so is pretty awesome in most ways, and we were really happy. It's mostly trying as, even when we were last taking she said how happy she was and how much she missed things, and so it would so much easier if it was just a case of lost or changed feelings, as I could accept it and let go.

Robnew, sorry to read about what you're going through with your girlfriend (ex-girlfriend). The only feedback I can offer, is to point out that we can't force people to be on our timeline of what we want, when things like this happen. All you can do is give her space, go on with your life, and just see what happens. You want her back. She knows it. So, there's really nothing more that you can say or do, I think, to convince her to hurry up and get onboard with a reconciliation, as much as you want one, since you two broke up before.

As far as her abandonment issues go that she hasn't sought counseling for; that is a tough nut to crack. People with abandonment issues do tend to be "runners," and tend to play the "push-pull" and "hot-n-cold" game with people they're in a relationship with, hell, even their friendships fall into that pattern. It's all about their need for control, due to the lack of control they had in whatever their abuse situation was about (whether it's emotional abuse or physical abuse by a parent, or whomever). I'm not an expert, just someone with an opinion.

When I have dated men who have abandonment issues, they are commitment-phobes to the n-th degree. No amount of negotiating with them, making compromises, assurances, or changes could keep them in the relationship with me. Even when I didn't do anything to trigger their decision to run. They just got tired of me and left. If I chased, they ran farther. So, after enough of that silliness, I decided the next time I come across a commitment-phobe, no matter how strong the chemistry, I will just have to "pass" on that man as an opportunity to date. Why put myself through that misery again? It's been 7 years since I was in a relationship, and he really did a number on me, so as far as I'm concerned, I'm permanently off the dating-market while I continue to pursue things that make me happy. I just am sick and tired of encountering men who run because they get bored too fast with me, or whatever their reason is (they never tell me so I just assume its because I bore them).

You need to decide when "enough is enough" with this woman, no matter how long you two have known each other, no matter what you've been through. You may want to be with her, but if she has commitment issues she refuses to address and deal with, you will always be like a cat chasing a mouse that can't be caught. What is it that you want? Do you want to marry her? Does she know this, if that's the case? Do you want to be on the receiving end of her push-pull routine all the time? Doesn't that exhaust you? Don't you deserve better than that from your relationship partner? There have to be women out there who don't have those commitment issues from past abuse, who you may be more compatible with. It's just something you should think about, rather than put your life on hold for this woman, who has left you before and waited for you to chase her before she came back. As an outsider, that doesn't seem very fair to you, to do all the work in the relationship that you seem to be doing. You deserve better. That's all I can say as a stranger on a forum.

[Robnew]

Thanks for your views Cielpur, I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

You're right, and in some ways I am letting go, and just moving on.

To be honest, there was never really much in the way of push/pull whilst we were together, and only the occasional mood swings, which passed quite quickly. For the most part it was a pretty happy, fun relationship, where a silly argument triggered a run. Prior to that there was little that bothered me, as I'm pretty nonchalant about things, and let it just wash over me. In fact, rather than pushing, she was more often teasing me to admit my feelings to her, as she thought I was guarded at times. So, there was little chasing on my part, and it was largely hassle free.

It was only after we'd split where there was some back and forth, and hot and cold behaviour, and even then I didn't really chase. I just told her I wanted her back, and that it was up to her, and I'd respect whatever she decided. If anything, she seemed impatient at times that I didn't chase harder. However, all contact since was headed in the direction of reconciling happily, and then came to a crashing halt with the study issues. As such it's just frustrating that there was a mutual desire to get back together, which was scuppered at the last minute by external factors.

But you're right, it seems like there's little I can do right now, other than carry on with my life, and leave to her to find her way back if she wants. That's what I've been doing, and just wanted to find a way to let her know there'd be a soft landing if she chose to reach out.

Thanks again.

Hmm. But silly arguments shouldn't trigger a run, or any drastic action from a partner. Silly arguments should pass as quickly as a fart (sorry to be crass but that's the only thing that popped in my brain). She sounds like she needs to be chased i.e. high maintenance, whereas you are more low maintenance, i.e. your nonchalant nature. Maybe underneath it all, you two are incompatible as far as your relationship styles go? Sure, opposites attract. But similar natures tend to have a more hassle free time together in a relationship.

She sounds like she's making convenient excuses not to reconcile. Maybe she likes the back and forth, push and pull now that you are broken up, because she thrives off of that kind of drama. Ugh. If she really wanted to reconcile, nothing, and I mean, NOTHING would get in the way of that. When two people want to reconcile, they just...do.

It's disappointing that you're in this situation with this woman, because obviously you two were once very happy together. Hopefully, she'll either come around and stop making excuses and reconcile. Or, you grieve, move on, and hopefully a more compatible woman crosses your path who will not make excuses or run at the slightest silly argument that happens when you are in a relationship with someone.

I really hope it works out for you. Everyone deserves to be happy.

[Sunflower123]

I'm sorry you're having a tough time with your girlfriend. As someone who has abandonment issues...it's like I see the world through a filter called unlovable so I see any perceived slight or even normal comments as evidence that I am in fact unlovable. My pattern is to cut things off if I get hurt, perceived or not, and run so I don't get hurt any further. I need assurance on a regular basis that I am in fact loved so when she said you weren't fighting enough for her that's where that came from. I am, in fact, working on this is therapy.

You've let her know you want her back. Maybe give her some time where you are truly giving her space so she can think things over and get her ducks in a row and maybe she'll come around and even contact you first. After some time of giving her space....try again. Good luck. I hope it works out for you. You seem like a nice, quality guy. Just remember...you might have to deal with these issues for the duration of the relationship unless she gets help.

[Robnew]

Well yes Cielpur, of course you're right. That said, I doubt she enjoys the back and forth any more than I do.

Personally I hate playing games, and will happily leave someone to it if that's what they're doing. However, it's tougher when someone's insecurities are the cause.

As an example, after a happy dinner, I went to pay and said I'd walk her home, as I knew she needed an early night. Without explanation she got upset and snapped at me. I was confused until she explained that her immediate thought was that I was trying to get rid of her early, and so she reacted.

So, whilst I agree with what you're saying, it's harder when you know that the underlying reasons come not from a desire to be difficult, but are about being insecure, uncertain and scared.

Of course I could cut through all the bs by being direct, but that's impossible whilst I'm being ignored.

[Robnew]

Thank you Jennifer, I really appreciate you giving me your perspective, from someone who shares similar fears.

I'm aware that it would always be an ongoing thing, but when we were together it was pretty mild, and I could always deal with it quite easily. It's only since we split, and so communication became more guarded, that things went awry.

I hope you're right, in that a bit of space will help. In fact that's what I thought, and figured it would be alright once the exams stresses died down.

I did tell her I wanted her back, but equally she would say I was guarded, and taking things slow, but then would back off confused if I pressed, so who knows what she thinks now.

I suppose my only doubt is that my offer to give her that space may have been wrongly interpreted as me letting go, as she didn't react well to it. But maybe that was just anger and stress. So, even if she does get her "ducks in a row" and wants the same as I do, my worry is that she'll assume I no longer do, and so her insecurities will cause her not to take the chance of making contact, out of fear of rejection.

It's funny, as with most girls, a bit of doubt and uncertainty can often encourage them to reach out and test the waters, whilst being persistent can push them away. However, with someone avoidant, who needs that reassurance, in order to feel safe, the reverse is often true, but it becomes a case of knowing how much, and timing.

As it stands, the last time we spoke was about a month or so ago. I texted a week later, and a week after that, both just friendly and non committal, and both were ignored. As a result I haven't made contact for nearly 3 weeks now. So she will definitely assume I've given up, regardless of what she or I may want.

So, if I was sure she knew I still wanted the same it would be so much easier, as I could just leave it to her, and if she did she could make contact, and if not then so be it.

Originally Posted by Robnew

Well yes Cielpur, of course you're right. That said, I doubt she enjoys the back and forth any more than I do.

Personally I hate playing games, and will happily leave someone to it if that's what they're doing. However, it's tougher when someone's insecurities are the cause.

As an example, after a happy dinner, I went to pay and said I'd walk her home, as I knew she needed an early night. Without explanation she got upset and snapped at me. I was confused until she explained that her immediate thought was that I was trying to get rid of her early, and so she reacted.

So, whilst I agree with what you're saying, it's harder when you know that the underlying reasons come not from a desire to be difficult, but are about being insecure, uncertain and scared.

Of course I could cut through all the bs by being direct, but that's impossible whilst I'm being ignored.

The fact that it's been a month of no contact, is her direct way of telling you she's through with the relationship. Like I wrote in my previous post, if two people want to reconcile they just do it; no excuses or reasons will prevent that reconciliation when both people want that same thing.

Her studies, her busy lifestyle, her insecurities; while those are all legitimate, they are also convenient excuses she uses to keep you at a distance, which I think is manipulative, even if it's unintentional on her part (but I don't know her, so I can't say).

So, I think any more communication from you at this point, may not be useful even if it's a direct email with an ultimatum from you, which would be uncharacteristic since you are very laid back.

From what you wrote about your previous breakup, it sounds like this is a case of history repeating itself. She ran from you before, and waited for you to contact her again before she returned to you and to the relationship.

I know that is must be hard to be in this limbo that you're in, once more with her. How many more "limbos" can you put up with, before you decide that you need to permanently end things with this woman, so that you can move on to someone else who doesn't have the same insecurities as she does, and doesn't need to run when she wrongly perceives something you say to her. I hope you can find peace with this situation.

Those of us who are like this, really really appreciate that there are men who are willing to see beneath the surface of what we present to the world.

You're good people, Rob. Thank you for taking the time to question and understand.

[Robnew]

Once again, in many ways your right cielpur.

Ordinarily I would give anyone else the same advice, but it's only more recently that I've seen that things aren't always what they apear on the surface. After we split she was naturally distant, and so I took her at her word, and assumed it was her choice, and that she was happy with it. I even left her alone as the last text she sent me was an angry one.

However, a week or so later she was genuinely baffled and upset that I hadn't called, and when I told her that she angrily told me to get lost, her response was that I know her, and know she doesn't mean it. She honestly believed that I didn't call because I didn't care and had forgotten her. I was equally baffled too as, like you, I believed she was though with it, but then a week later she called crying, saying that she couldn't eat, sleep or concentrate, because she couldn't think of anything else, and was worried I'd moved on and met someone else.

That said, whilst it's been back and forth, it has got easier each time. She is aware of some of her issues, wants to deal with them, and is apolgetic when they have an effect. Add to that what I've learnt in recent weeks, and I do think things could work and improve, if we could get past this current communication block.

So yes, maybe she's through with it, and shutting me out is a way to move on; but equally, if she decides otherwise it's almost impossible for her to do anything about it, as her fears are too strong. As such, I can either remain in limbo, move on myself, or acknowledge that it would have to be me who breaks the ice. Given that it's the latter that's my preference, then I guess my questions are in search of advice from those who have experienced similar feelings, as to how best to do that.

[Robnew]

Thanks again sophiesmom,

Oh I'm no saint, and have my flaws too, but I've never been one to judge, and have always looked beneath the surface as to why people act as they do. That's why her moods never affected me, as I knew they weren't personal. If anything, her reactions were mostly due to either her fears of intimacy, or fears of rejection, which in a perverse way shows she cared rather than not.

My best guess now is that she's thinking one of two things. Either she's decided she can't cope with the relationship and focus on her work and studies, and so has shut me out totally to prevent me persuading her otherwise. Maybe she even blames me, in order to make that easier. In which case, does that cool down after a while, and at least allow for friendly communication, even if only as friends?

Or, she might have cooled down, but again either blames me for not trying harder, or assumes I've just forgotten about her and moved on.

So, given all I've said in my posts, is ignoring my previous attempts to reach out just an avoidant way of saying I'm done, or a way of perhaps thinking it, but leaving the door the open? Would you tell someone to leave it and not contact you, or would you find that hard, even if you wanted to?

If I was to contact her, any advice on how to do so that makes it clear I'm still here and interested, but without putting pressure on her. I know from experience, that if she did still have feelings, the she'd likely want all or nothing. She'd find just being friends hard, and so if she thought that's all I wanted she'd just as likely avoid that, and be just as annoyed at not enough commitment, as too much. So, once again, apologies for all the questions but, given that I'd at least like to try, and not give up on her, it's a hard course to chart.

This is a very tough call, and I honestly hope you don't take the comments of strangers who don't know her (or you) as a guide.

That said...if something of my personality seems familiar, then I hope it's helpful to any decision you come to. Hopefully others will keep commenting.

For me, personally, it's almost impossible to believe that I have anyone in my corner. Right now, I believe my personality was forged in a lousy childhood where I could do nothing right or good enough. My self-esteem is almost in the gutter. My husband has been my rock and my support...but even now I will tell him that he has his freedom from this hell he's gotten himself into. As an aside, probably I'm looking for it to be a self-fulfilling prophesy so that I can prove that I am what I think I am. I don't know why it's so important to punish myself this way. I guess...once again...it comes down to a lousy self-esteem. But that has nothing to do with this issue.

Anyway. I take anything written to be much more meaningful than a face to face. I can read it and digest it and possibly believe it. So (for me) an email would have much more impact. Of course she may be different.

Assurances are paramount. Words like "I am here when you decide it's time to come home". "Don't worry". "I'll take care of things"....those kinds of words are better to me than all of the treasures in the world. Just be her rock. And that counts even if the romance is over. (personally....I was never able to do the exes as friends thing, for whatever reason....if she can, then good). However, don't make any unreasonable proclamations, because I can't deal with a person not following through and she may be the same way.

This is all conjecture of course. But my guess is that she has learned that she's not worth your trouble. She will be flabbergasted (and, possibly a little disconcerted) by your persistence and will do what she can to dissuade you.

Just from personal experience and I wouldn't wish anyone to be like me. But, as I said, this may seem familiar to you.

Please don't forget to figure your own wants and needs into this picture. I know this seems one-sided and way too difficult. But I can only speak from what she might be feeling, not what you are.

HTH.

Hi Robnew,

I'm sorry that I haven't been much help for you then. I know women like her, and I've seen them totally emasculate their boyfriends, husbands, and fiances, to the point where these once assertive, independent, happy men, became shells of their former selves due to the amount of manipulation by women like your girlfriend (based on what you've posted, and how I've interpreted the descriptions of her behavior).

I don't see her push-pull as insecurity. I have tried to, really. I have. But, having watched women like your girlfriend manipulate and toy with men's emotional, physical and financial well-being; I just can't bring myself to have any sympathy for your girlfriend, as much as I have empathy for you.

The scenarios that you've described of how she disappears, cuts off contact, sends you an angry text, waits to see if you responds, then calls you up angry that you didn't respond does not equate someone who is emotionally naive or vulnerable to me, at all.

However, a week or so later she was genuinely baffled and upset that I hadn't called, and when I told her that she angrily told me to get lost, her response was that I know her, and know she doesn't mean it. She honestly believed that I didn't call because I didn't care and had forgotten her. I was equally baffled too as, like you, I believed she was though with it, but then a week later she called crying, saying that she couldn't eat, sleep or concentrate, because she couldn't think of anything else, and was worried I'd moved on and met someone else.

It describes someone who is a skilled manipulator the way her emotions roller coaster all over the place with you. She knows you haven't moved on from her, so she's doing this to keep tabs on you, frankly. At least that's how I interpret it. I don't see her as a wounded woman at all. I see her as someone who is off enjoying her life, while she keeps you as an option, available to her whenever she needs more attention, because you are so laid back. She knows how to push your buttons, to get what she wants: your undevoted attention.

And, if she is self-aware that she's manipulative, perhaps a bit conniving even -- has she done any soul searching about these traits? Does she have any desire to improve herself? To change? Calling you up hysterical on the phone, is disingenuous at best. It's her way of keeping you on the hook, so that she can control you.

What is the attraction to someone like this, for you, Robnew? I sound callous in my posts about her, I realize. And I do somewhat feel that way about women like your girlfriend based on my personal experiences with them as their friend, watching the way they can eviscerate the men they date, like she-wolves on the hunt.

Perhaps I'm not the best person to advise you then, since I don't like women like your girlfriend and don't trust them based on what I know about their motives and agendas; despite not knowing you or your girlfriend in real life. I can be a bit intense about certain topics. So, my apologies.

[Robnew]

Thanks again cielpur, and no need to apologise. I'm interested in all views, regardless of what they are.

I'm also aware that all people can and will manipulate others to their own ends, sometimes deliberately, sometimes not. For that reason I've been guarded, but equally she had always been honest in how her issues affect her, and how it impacts others.

However, when someone who is highly motivated and intelligent, fails their assignments, defers exams, and struggles with eating, sleeping and work, then it seems less about them running around enjoying life, and more likely a genuine internal struggle.

I too have met a few similar, as friends only, and so am aware that beneath the surface of their actions there's a lot of pain, confusion and conflict.

Thankfully I'm not eviscerated, and unlikely to be, and largely fairly unemotional, so for me it's about either letting go if I think it's pointless, but not rushing to judge and giving up on someone who might just need some reassurance.

However, I understand and appreciate your views, and the reasons for caution.

[Robnew]

Thanks again sophiesmom, and no, I don't just take the words of a stranger. I try to get as many views as possible, from those with experience, so that I'm better equipped to make my own decisions. In that regard you've been very helpful, and I'm grateful.

One thing I never do is make unreasonable proclamations, and rarely make promises, simply because I've never broken one, and my word is important to me, and she knows that.

In the past she's liked my persistence, and has always teased me to admit that I pursued her, whilst I always teased her by being guarded. So no, I don't think she feels she's not worth my trouble. I do think she's sometimes insecure about how I feel, and that I may lose interest, even though I've told her I wouldn't. However, this time is the first she's ever ignored me in this way. I can't help feeling that it's largely down to her work and studies, and that had the timing been different it would have been resolved more quickly. I think I also pushed her away further by saying I'd give her space when she was withdrawing, instead of just riding it out.

Ultimately time is the deciding factor, and whether that time and space allows her to shut off and move on completely, or cool down and at least soften towards any renewed attempt at contact.

Obviously initially she wanted that door open, by moving nearby, and maintaining contact, and I'm hoping those feelings remain, or will return once the drama and upset of her study issues subside.

So, thank you for your advice on how to approach things. Ultimately any contact will be accepted, welcomed, dismissed or resented. That's something no one can predict, and so all I can do is approach it in the best way possible and hope for the best.

Thanks again.