[Faith_walk]

I just deleted another post. . .I didn't really get to the point.

Have any of you ever worried you'd say something in counseling and that your counselor wouldn't like you any more?

I said some stuff last week and now I'm worried that he won't look at me the same any more. And it's important for me to feel "liked" by him.

he's trained to be accepting of his patients. it is highly doubtful that he felt the way you did about what you said. he is there to help you process and learn...........good luck, xoxoxo pat

[stigmastomper]

i agree with faverody. take care nice pictutre fayerody take care

[bipolar_bear]

I go round and round on that worry myself. But, it always happens that I have worried for nothing. My T is way more accepting of me than I am of myself. Try not to let your feelings become theirs in your mind. Take care and please bring it up when you see him again.

[Perna]

Reverse shoes and think what you'd think/feel about you in his (or someone else who knew/cared about you)? Do you think your teachers didn't like you when they learned how ignorant you were, when you raised your hand with "the" answer and gave a wrong one instead? Another person doesn't see us like we think they see us, they're in a different place than we are, are different people ages/sex/background. My T once reminded me about children and how when they get mad at their mother they tell her they hate her? The mother doesn't believe that! The mother knows better, that it's a situation not anything continuous/permanent. Your relationship with your T isn't just about last week, it's been going on for awhile and all those weeks "count."

Yes I worry. I worry a great deal. Not just in therapy either but in IRL too. I worry that I'll disclose too much and they will respond with disgust or revulsion or disdain or something like that. I worry that some disclosures will alter things irrevokably and there will be no going back to the way things were...

The answer?

For me... I think it is about trust, yes. But then I think it is also about trusting wisely. Trust is kind of a process, I think. You take a little risk, the person pulls through. Then you get the courage to take a slightly bigger risk etc. Sometimes they don't respond as we need / would like them too and then one can back off a bit... Maybe talk about it or something...

But yeah, I hear you. One of my biggest things is that I really am unacceptable. If someone gets to see some of the real me, some of the stuff that is inside, then they will feel disgusted and repulsed by me.

Sometimes it can be about fear of rejection if we have been rejected in the past. Or if we have been picked on a lot or if our thoughts and feelings have been invalidated then we can come to see ourself as unacceptable.

I'm reminded of the saying 'nothing risked nothing gained'. It can be important (and helpful) to take small steps towards trusting... But it can be the hardest thing in the world. Hang in there.

[Rapunzel]

I worry about that too. I want T to like me, and I don't think that she ever will. I don't feel likeable or acceptable. She won't reassure me either. She says that whether she likes me or not is neither here nor there. I don't think that I ever can live up to her expectations.

If therapy brings those feelings out, then they probably also exist elsewhere in our lives though. It probably isn't just the therapist that we worry about liking us. When we work that out in therapy, then we can work out that feeling in the rest of life too.

Hmm. That sounds slightly harsh to me. Like the notion that it doesn't matter what other people think of us. Fact is that it DOES matter. Because people are social beings. Feeling accepted is important to us.

Sometimes therapists try for 'neutrality' I guess. I've heard that most often that is perceived as uncaring, though. Do you think your t is trying to be neutral, Rapunzel?

I don't know how well I'd go with a t doing that... But I guess it is hard... I don't think my t likes me particularly... There are aspects I haven't really shown him... I'm concerned about whether that will count as one of those irrevokable things, though...

[Perna]

Hey, Alexandra and Rapunzel. Sounds harsh not letting someone know whether they like you or not but I think your T does that Rapunzel because of what Alexandra brings up; there's a difference between "feeling accepted" and "meeting someone else's expectations." We're not here for the other person, only for us. They can't make us "feel" better about ourselves, only we can do that. Only we can feel accepted and it has nothing to do with whether the other person does or does not say they like us. The goal of therapy is not to "win" the therapist's liking/love, but our own. Other people are like "weather" in the sense that they are "out there" and yes, you put on a raincoat and carry an umbrella when it rains, it affects you, but you still go out and do whatever you want to do. I think your therapist Rapunzel is saying the same thing, not that she doesn't like you but that her saying so or not is not the important part. You're both "there"/It's raining out. Just like you wouldn't mention the rain, you'd just adjust, the therapist liking you is like that.

She wouldn't work with you if she didn't "enjoy" it; you can't pay people enough to do something, to basically sit all day and listen to others talk, if they hate doing that. Think of a job you would find distasteful/not like. Could you do that all day for months/years at a time even if they paid you well? No, you'd have to quit soon. Therapists do have clients they like better or not as well as others but it's like friends you have or even children but if they can't work with a client because they don't like that sort of person, that person in particular or kind of work, they don't! They refer them somewhere else. I just "accepted" my T and that she was there to help me and got on with it. Therapy is your work, the T is there just as a kind of advisor of sorts, along for the ride. It's not her life you're looking at or trying to understand/change and she's not in your life other than once a week or so as a consultant. One of the quotes that helped me the most during therapy was: "Your therapy should be the most important thing in your life but it is not the most important thing in your therapist's life." That put it in perspective for me; my therapist has a whole life out there different from mine, with her own wishes, hopes, dreams, problems, and dramas but without me in it :-)

Hey... I'm still not sure...

I know it is part of the Western ideal that every man (and woman) is an island and how other people relate to us should make no difference to our own sense of self worth etc etc...

But the fact is that we are social beings and I'm fairly sure that the majority of people do a lot better in life if they feel like other people support and like them.

But I do understand that that might not be part of what a therapist thinks their role is...

I do wonder about the 'neutral stance', though. I mean... I do think it is worthwhile for therapists to say 'why is it so important to you that I like you' and to really process stuff... But then I also think that quite often the neutral stance is perceived as withholding, cold, aloof etc. I don't know. I'm just kind of reminded of some conversations I listen in on on another board... There are a bunch of people struggling with therapists who take a neutral stance and the people really struggle with why they feel so cold etc... And there are a couple people who have therapists who will process first and then say 'yeah, i like you. i really admire your strength (or whatever)'. and that latter approach... Well, I think there is something to be said for it and I much prefer it.

It is like: 'Yes it is okay for you to care about me. Yes it is okay that I am important to you. I understand that you are taking a risk and I respect that'. That is what I would take from that. Is that that bad? I think it helps to trust etc...

But I dunno. Everybody (and every therapist) is different no doubt...

I would imagine that there are times when T's maybe not "like us"....there are times when I don't like my husband or my children...it doesn't mean I will dislike them forever...its just maybe more to do with whats going on for me on any particular day.....as we talk about these feelings with our T's we realise that being human means being imperfect....and there is nothing I can say or do that will "make" someone like me....and thats fine......I guess there are times that we don't always like our therapist? I use to want to copy my T in everything I percieved her to like and to wear...now I am finding that I am allowing myself to not always like what she is wearing and still feel "safe"....like isn't either/or its always somewhere in between and that includes liking and disliking someone :-)

[Perna]

I know just what you mean, Alexandra, I feel the same way about "time out" for children. My mother died when I was 3, was sick for all my life and thinking about time out, being forced to be away from someone when you're desperate to be with them. . . that makes my skin crawl, seems to me the epitome of cruelty but I understand it and the rationale "in theory" :-)

Yes other people do/should matter to us and we to them but I think we get tangled when we're children and around our parents or other primary caregivers mostly; if we don't learn interaction "right" for some reason, don't learn we're okay and valuable the way we are, for who we are, aren't "encouraged" then we have the problems in later life which we go to therapy for. I think that when therapists try to reassure us, tell us they like us "early" on before a real relationship is established, we don't believe them anyway usually, think they're just "saying that" to be nice/because we pay them? Once I'd established a working relationship with my therapist and we were working "together" I didn't need to ask her if she "liked" me because it was obvious she did in the work we were doing together. We don't ask a friend or coworker if they "like" us, we'd be embarrassed to! We figure it out okay and usually it's not an issue?

It's harder when we tell a therapist something "special" that is really big in our own lives/head and that we think will change the relationship, that our T won't think well of us anymore or will relate to us differently. But I think we have trouble seeing around the size of whatever it is in our own life and the enormity of how it feels to us! Think about something big you've confessed here on the boards (or imagine someone else's confession), how you want to (and sometimes do) delete it the next moment, etc. but other people come on and reassure? Remember being that other person when someone talks about their sleeping with a ex- or hating their parents or themselves, their bulemia/anorexia, SI? It doesn't affect the listener the same way it does the person confessing. The listener is very much interested, that's not an issue, but the listener isn't as keyed up or anxious/upset by the other person's problem usually (unless triggered by it) and that's even more so for a therapist.

Disgust is usually all in our own head, it's a personal thing. What we're disgusted by is as different between people as what triggers us? And, when we think another person will be disgusted by us, that's kind of similar to when we're depressed and think we're worthless; we're about as disgusting as we are worthless :-) which is, not at all. We're worried about people liking/not liking us in proportion to worrying about our mother or other caregiver liking us and then a spouse or other SO. If we're unlucky and "ignorant" and get surrounded by people we feel are tearing us down, it's kind of hard to think or accept someone likes us or have it not be an issue, so it doesn't really matter that much. I don't worry about whether you like me or not, just accept that you do or you wouldn't be taking the time to reply thoughtfully to me :-) If you were to say something that made me believe you didn't "like" me/my response, I'd move on to another post, another day, another "project." There would be other people who would like what I was saying. That "acceptance" is what I did with my T; since she was "responding" to me without saying anything hurtful or trying to push my buttons, etc., she must "enjoy" working with me?

[Faith_walk]

I guess my thing is he's a Christian and I try to be respectful of that. I'm a Christian too of course or I wouldn't be seeing a Christian counselor.

But my husband has had a very severe depression this year and I have not been very understanding of it the last few months. And some of the things I said were not very nice. And he stuck up for my hubby. Now I am afraid he must think I'm a total witch.

I know I am feeling that way about myself right now. I really dont' feel worthy of the love of my husband lately. I am just not that easy to live with and not always very nice. I am not happy with ME right now.

[Rapunzel]

So you are concerned that your counselor may not approve of your actions, and generalizing that to that he might not like you because of your actions, right? And not approving of the way you are yourself is probably a big part of that.

My problem is largely that I know that there are things that I do that need to change, but I don't change, or at least not very fast. My T doesn't buy my claim that I am trying, and I'm not showing enough evidence that I am really doing anything about it. I am afraid to try to tell her what I am trying to do about it, because I am afraid it won't be good enough. Sometimes I am just lost and don't know what to do about it. Does any of that sound familiar to you? Do you understand how you need to go about changing your actions that you don't approve of? Are you doing all that you can? Sometimes it does come down to cold hard reality, and being stuck in the same place, and that being frustrating for you and anyone who tries to help you or is affected by it. Therapy is hard, and change is hard, and the only way to feel better is to work hard and do your best. You might want to try talking to the counselor about those feelings.

To answer Alexandra, in my case I think that my T really is very frustrated with me because I have not done enough to change. I keep on making the same mistakes that I have already made. She has wanted to quit, and has told me that she is mad (she said pissed, actually). I think that there is more countertransference involved than she wants to admit, but I really don't think that she likes me, and isn't just trying to remain neutrality. She isn't a neutral kind of person. But it isn't ethical for therapists to abandon clients, and I am determined to work through these issues because I don't want to keep repeating my pattern of making someone mad at me and just disappearing without ever resolving it, so we're stuck with each other for a while. I thought she was less mad at me, and then I messed up again (I hope I'm not doing the same thing now - I tend to not listen too well because I compare everything to myself rather than listen well, and I am capable of listening and need to be since I am training to be a therapist). I just hope that sharing this helps.

Rap

Hmm...

I admire your persistence a great deal.

I guess... Acceptance is important to me. It is important to me to balance acceptance with change. Kind of paradoxical but sometimes I can only change when I feel accepted.

Sounds like you are trying to change. When you say you aren't trying hard enough... Well... What is the mark / measure of 'trying'? Succeeding? If you are trying the same old strategies and they aren't working very well then maybe it is time to change strategy?

Maybe your t feels like she is at her wits end because she doesn't know what to DO...

I had a t like that once...

For me (and you could well be different) but for me...

She didn't need to DO anything. I just needed someone to accept me.

Seems to me like you know you want to change in certain respects. But... Do you really want to change in those respects or is it that you want your t to feel happy and proud of you? Sounds like you are trying and instead of her helping you on the path... Well... I'm sorry. Maybe I'm mishearing or something.

[Rapunzel]

I don't want to steal this thread, but I am pretty confused about where I am with this issue. I think I am trying, but trying doesn't cut it. I don't know what would be good enough. I think that it would be easier if I felt accepted, but then there is the danger of complacency too, so I'm back to being confused. Yes, I really do want to change and not just make T happy with me, but I also really want her to be proud of me too.

Yeah, I don't want to hijack this thread either. I'll start another thread to post a response to you.

It can be really hard to be close to someone who is going through severe depression. Really draining. One can feel powerless to help and that can feel really very unpleasant. I think it is understandable that eventually it would get to you and you might feel frustrated and express frustration when otherwise you wouldn't.

I guess it can be a hard situation for a councellor (or confidant(sp?) to be in...

If he supports you then you might feel worse about your husband...
If he supports your husband then you might feel worse about you...

I think there is a middle way here... Can you talk to him, or write a note to give to him or something? I don't think you are a total witch. I'm far from perfect myself :-(

Sounds like those are the kinds of things that you are having councelling for. The very fact that you aren't happy with those things... Shows that you aren't a total witch.

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Faith_walk said:
I guess my thing is he's a Christian and I try to be respectful of that. I'm a Christian too of course or I wouldn't be seeing a Christian counselor.

But my husband has had a very severe depression this year and I have not been very understanding of it the last few months. And some of the things I said were not very nice. And he stuck up for my hubby. Now I am afraid he must think I'm a total witch.

I know I am feeling that way about myself right now. I really dont' feel worthy of the love of my husband lately. I am just not that easy to live with and not always very nice. I am not happy with ME right now.

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I guess my first response is "let yourself be human"...I guess living with someone that is having "problems" is a strain on the best intentioned.....give yourself a break...whose taking care off you while your taking care of your husband?...we are human not super human and somedays I do things I'm none to proud off...but its living with those not so good choices instead of beating myself up for that I am aiming for....I use to feel that I "should" be a saint.....but someone once told me to get off the cross as the wood is needed somewhere else lol....anyways if you weren't a kind caring person I doubt this debate would have happened?

[Faith_walk]

Thanks guys. I finally emailed him because of something he said in our closing prayer. I thought he said he hoped I would love "better" but it turns out he said "love well" and here is what he explained to me by email:

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Hmmm. . . , I think what I said was "love well" but either way, I don't think we as people (not just you) do not really know what it means to love others (or ourselves) or to love God. And there are all these paradoxes that don't make sense - boundaries and sacrifice for one example. We need to be able to do both and do them at the right times - what a challenge. So, that was what I was thinking about.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

So, from this it doesn't seem like he thinks I'm being mean at all, only that I struggle with how to treat my hubby as well as possible all things considered.

I just beat myself up because sometimes, especially when I'm PMS'ing, I want someone to take care of ME, but that doesn't change the fact that hubby still needs my support.

Hubby told me yesterday that he doesn't know why I'm so hard on myself. He said that so what I'm a little moody sometimes. He said that he's very thankful for having me and that I do show my love to him just fine.

I had also shared some stuff with my counselor about when I was in my late teens and early 20's and it was such a different person than I am now. I was sleeping around doing drugs, even had an abortion. And then I worried. . . does he see I've changed? And have I really changed deep inside? Or am I just doing what I think I should do but I've still got the same ugliness inside? It's something I'm struggling with.

[Perna]

Hey, whether you've changed inside or not is Jesus's problem, not your counselor's to judge and I think he knows that? You should too and remind yourself to quit "trying" so much; you can't earn your way to salvation, you have to just do the best you can, moment to moment, ask for forgiveness when you realize you've made a mistake, and move on to the next "challenge?" Change doesn't happen overnight. I'm reminded of the argument for losing weight? I'm 100+ pounds overweight but I've been gaining for 30 years. Why should I expect it to work well to take it off in 1 or 2 years? Why not just lose 3-5 pounds a year like I put it on, for 30 years? Makes lots of sense but have you ever heard any diet people express it that way? We're in such a hurry these days for everything only most things don't work that way and I think that's why we have so many troubles.

[Faith_walk]

Yes I'm sure he dos. And I don't worry about my salvation but I do worry that I'm trying hard enough, but even that is not right. You've got a good point.

He has tried to keep reminding me that we never change as fast as we'd like to but we just have to be open and willing to try.

I just feel so mean sometimes, and self-centered.

Thanks, your post helped me put things in perspective.

[biiv]

Hi Faith,
just my two cents and i hope i dont offend but i dont think doing drugs, being 'mean' or even having an abortion represents any 'ugliness' inside of you. i think everyone is capable of all of that. thats what free will is about. i think it represents pain and turmoil and confusion, yes. but from the sound of things you havent done any of that sort of thing for years so to me that signifies that you havent changed who you are but what you do. thats the most important thing. we can all do evil, bad, dangerous, hurtful things but we can choose not to as well and thats what you re doing. just that choosing makes you a good person.
hope i understood what you were saying ok and that what i wrote is ok. i dont mean any insult or anything.
take care of yourself and happy new year.
biiv

[Faith_walk]

Thanks so much for saying that. Honestly that does make me feel a lot better.

I'm looking forward to talking to my counselor about this on Tuesday. I really think this is a pattern that I follow with almost any important relationship. I start off not sure if we'll get along so I don't worry too much. And as things click. . . then I open up more and at some stage I feel I open up too much and then I worry that they'll like me any more, knowing the "real" me.

I think the fact that t his happened is sort of a good thing, because if I can work on why I follow this pattern and how to stop doing it, it will help all my future new relationships too.

I have been obsessing about it somewhat and I"m looking forward to figuring it out.

My counselor gave me a book to read and part of it deals with approval addiction in Christians, and how we should try and rely on God for our self-worth, not on what others think. That's a huge challenge for me.

[Rapunzel]

It sounds like you are on the right track and making most of what you are experiencing. The book about approval addiction sounds interesting too.