[sunrise]

I have family therapy with my daughter. It's so hard. Way harder than individual has been for me. Way harder than couples therapy. Maybe I'm exaggerating. But it feels reaaally hard right now.

We had a session with our family therapist today. He tries hard. I think he heard a little more from my daughter tonight than usual but he had to work really hard to get there. I think he is beginning to understand more of the dynamics and more about her. I'm not sure his suggestions are going to help us. Today in therapy he said to my daughter, "you're talking about your mother, she's sitting right next to you." I'm not sure why he said that. Maybe he wanted her to address her comments directly to me? Maybe he thought she shouldn't say what she said in my presence? I don't understand anything.

We are in therapy so that we can have a better relationship. I am feeling like therapy is so hard, I'm not sure there is any use or any progress. I also feel like if I give up on therapy, I am giving up on the relationship. This is my last attempt to try to make this relationship work. It's like a final stand, a last ditch effort. This experience is different from couples therapy in a really deadening way. Really depressing. I try to fake it and keep going. Every day, not just in therapy. I just feel so tired. It's so hard too when the other person is your child. You can't just walk away.

I really wish I could talk about this with my own therapist.

I have this book on boundaries that I think is really good. I wish I had read it decades ago. It has a section on parent-child boundaries, and I eagerly read that chapter, hoping to find some insight or wisdom. But it turned out to be all about boundaries the child should have that the parent should respect. There are no boundaries the other way. Why not? The child can just ride roughshod over the parent? I don't get that. Shouldn't there be some element of reciprocity in the relationship? Why don't they have to respect your boundaries?

I don't have these problems in the relationship with my other daughter so it's not that I'm profoundly incapable of this type of relationship.

This is just way too hard for me. And therapy makes me think about it even more, and that makes me depressed. What does "giving up" on a child even look like? I don't know how to do that either. I don't want to do that, but I'm really, really tired.

[coconut64]

((((((((((((((((((Sunny)))))))))))))))

You sounded so hopeful after meeting with the family therapist one on one the other day, what happened?

Family therapy sounds really hard, like it has rules of its own. How old is your daughter? I guessing since I'm not married or have children so please feel free to set me straight. In couples therapy, the communication is adult to adult, and you are encouraged to express all the feelings and thoughts that get in the way of a truly happy partnership. In mother and daughter therapy,you're dealing with a teenager who is still maturing and forming herself. She might not really know or be willing to express herself fully. Also, I'm guessing your mother instict kicks in and you want to protect your child from any pain or fustrations.

You can't talk to your T about this because he is your D coach?

Hang in there. This was a difficult session, just have hope that things can get better. Would talking to the T one of one again help?

Originally Posted by sunrise

This is my last attempt to try to make this relationship work. It's like a final stand, a last ditch effort.

It's so hard too when the other person is your child. You can't just walk away.

I really wish I could talk about this with my own therapist.

There are no boundaries the other way. Why not? The child can just ride roughshod over the parent? I don't get that. Shouldn't there be some element of reciprocity in the relationship? Why don't they have to respect your boundaries?

This sounds really frustrating

Obviously, I don't know any of the facts, but I do think that generally, you are right that it's a really big decision to just walk away from a relationship with your child. I know my parents really struggled with this when one of my siblings was going through a very long, very rough patch (and was quite difficult to be around).

I don't understand -- why can't you talk to your T about this? About what good parent-child boundaries are from the other direction? Maybe he could recommend some readings that address this, that would maybe give you other options than just dropping the relationship completely? Sorry I don't have any better advice, I just find that when I feel stuck, my T can often suggest something I haven't thought of yet, and that helps me see things a little less bleakly. [ETA: if you can't ask your T about these questions, maybe you can address them to the family T? Could he provide some suggested readings on the topic?]

It does sound exhausting, and I hope there is a solution out there where your boundaries can be respected too.

[deliquesce]

i dont know if i can offer much advice - but i can (hopefully) clarify what your T meant when he said to your daughter that you were sitting right next to her. it's one of the basics of couples therapy, or even just good communication, that you talk to the person you have an issue with, not the third person who is listening in.

kind of like, it should be you and your daughter having a conversation, and your T looking on. if he has a comment to say, he will interject, or maybe make you two pause to reflect on something, but essentially - both you and your daughter should be addressing each other.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by coconut64

You sounded so hopeful after meeting with the family therapist one on one the other day, what happened?

I guess I had this expectation that now that the family T had a better picture of my and my daughter's relationship (because he and I met one on one), that the next family session would go much better and that he would work miracles. Yeah, unrealistic, but somewhere inside, I realize now I was thinking things would be better. But they weren't. My daughter is almost 15, BTW.

Family therapy sounds really hard, like it has rules of its own.

Yes, it does seem to, and like individual therapy, no one ever tells you the rules! One of the biggest changes from individual is that in individual, I go in to therapy, choose the direction or topic and off we go. T follows my lead. In family therapy, one person can't do that, because there is the other person to consider. The topic or direction I want may not be the one my daughter wants. So I let the T choose the direction and topic. It is a lot more work for him, but I can't think of any other way. I'm OK with it as long as he is.

You can't talk to your T about this because he is your D coach?

Bingo. I worry if he knew the difficulties we were having, it might reflect negatively on the custody decision. So I can't share anything of consequence regarding my daughter with my T.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by notme9

you are right that it's a really big decision to just walk away from a relationship with your child. I know my parents really struggled with this when one of my siblings was going through a very long, very rough patch (and was quite difficult to be around).

What happened?

Originally Posted by deliquesce

it's one of the basics of couples therapy, or even just good communication, that you talk to the person you have an issue with, not the third person who is listening in.

Oh. I didn't know that was how it worked in therapy and I doubt my daughter does either. The family T has never told us that. One of those rules they expect you to somehow know, I guess. In this session, I believe my daughter and I talked to each other the most we ever have in session. We said a few sentences directly to each other. Usually it is just the family T speaking to both of us, or to one or the other of us. And then I or my daughter answer him back. I didn't know we were supposed to talk to each other. I guess we are not doing well at therapy at all, are we?

[deliquesce]

Originally Posted by sunrise

Oh. I didn't know that was how it worked in therapy and I doubt my daughter does either. The family T has never told us that. One of those rules they expect you to somehow know, I guess. In this session, I believe my daughter and I talked to each other the most we ever have in session. We said a few sentences directly to each other. Usually it is just the family T speaking to both of us, or to one or the other of us. And then I or my daughter answer him back. I didn't know we were supposed to talk to each other. I guess we are not doing well at therapy at all, are we?

you're doing the best you know how! and that is all anyone can ask for .

yes, therapy does seem to have a lot of little rules we're somehow meant to know. it would be a lot easier if they had em stuck up on the wall and numbered 1 to 10 .

how did it feel talking to your daughter in session? was it awkward at all or kind of natural?

where i picked up the communication thing - i started a new job last year, and we often have to use interpreters (deal with a lot of people from non english speaking backgrounds). and the thing we got drummed into us, is always always always talk directly to the client, make eye contact with the client - kind of ignore that the interpreter is there at all. it doesn't matter that the client doesn't understand one word of what you are saying - because what you are talking about involves them, you have to direct what you are saying towards them. then the interpreter (which is kind of like your T) will do his thing, and the client can respond.

so it's almost like - your T is just their to help clarify things when you are both floundering, or when the communication can be improved somewhat, or when maybe both of you are missing something?

i dont know if that helps at all. i think it is natural to answer directly to the T if he is the one who is asking you the question.

((((((((((((((((((((((((sunrise))))))))))))))))))))))

My own kids are not teenagers yet, so I have no idea if this will be any help...but sometimes, when I am having trouble with one of my kids, I read books on typical development for kids at whatever age they are, and it turns out it isn't really "them" or "me", but sort of a developmental stage that we have to get through. And I wonder how the divorce plays into whatever crazy-making behaviors 14 year olds already have??

Don't give up. It sounds like you are working really, really hard. I almost wonder if you are working TOO hard? Maybe just do the family therapy with your D, but also give yourself room to breathe and just "be" knowing that you are working on the relationship, but that it won't "get better" on your time schedule??

T and I have a phrase, "keep swimming" that we use. He tells me to "keep swimming" which means to keep working, keep moving ahead. When I got way too overwhelmed in the fall, we both realized that maybe "swimming" isn't always the way to go. Sometimes, it's time to just float a bit. I wonder if it's time for you and D to just float some??

I wonder how much of the stress you are feeling is tied up in the custody fear? Like "I have to make this work, NOW, or I will lose custody"? And I wonder how realistic that is? Sometimes we can make up stories in our head that seem really REAL, but they are just that, stories....

(((((((((((((((sunny)))))))))))))))) I'm sorry this is so hard right now.

[MissCharlotte]

((Sunny))

This sounds so so challenging and painful.

Today in therapy he said to my daughter, "you're talking about your mother, she's sitting right next to you." I'm not sure why he said that.

Well, my guess is that he would want her to develop an awareness of you and your feelings. It's easier to dismiss responsibility for our actions if we don't consider other's feelings as well. At the same time, he is doing it in a way that will allow her to arrive at this decision on her own. Then she won't feel like someone is telling her what to do.

This is my last attempt to try to make this relationship work. It's like a final stand, a last ditch effort.

Awww, I am sorry it feels so difficult right now. When we feel so depleted it's hard to imagine that we have to try again with our children. At times like these I try to look within and see what it is that I need to do to take care of myself.

I have three children but there is one who has always managed to press my buttons. He is the child who forced me to consult with professionals many years ago because it was soooooo difficult. He is the child who pushed me to my limits time and time again. But he is now the child who is on in his twenties, on his own in NYC, and who calls me (still yelling) and then thanks me for grounding him. Go figure. I think these kids are the ones who reflect more of what is inside of us than we know.

Sunny, just keep going, one foot in front of the other. Don't give up. Take care of your needs. We can't take care of our children until we take care of ourselves.

[sunrise]

I am feeling really really down. I don't see any hope for us at all. I don't know what more to do.

When I was with the family therapist alone, I told him the alternative I could see was that we each retreat to different ends of the house and don't interact at all with each other. I guess that's what "giving up" might look like to me. He said a lot of people do that. They just watch TV or retreat in some other way and don't interact. He thought it was good I was not doing that, that I was there in therapy. It showed I was trying and wanted something better.

I'm just not sure I can keep doing all this. Earthmama, maybe I am trying too hard. I don't know what more to do. I know what it looks like to just ignore this, and it is not what I want and not what I feel I can survive without more damage. This is not just some teen thing with my daughter, she's always been a real challenge. I tried to ignore it and pretend she was "OK", that we were "OK." With others present in the house, it was possible to talk myself into thinking things were OK. Now my H is gone--a big success for me--and my other daughter is gone. It's just the two of us and it's harder to ignore things now. Plus, I have worked so hard on my marriage and ending that and making my life better. To me, that is self care. But here I am left with this huge negative in my life, this huge drag on me and my mood and my efforts to move forward and have a better life. I know that sounds incredibly self centered and awful for a parent to say that. I just feel how can I keep taking this? I try to let her constant insults and negativity and hostility roll off my back and ignore them and not let them get to me. But it's so hard. I just feel so tired of this. The family T says I shouldn't ignore those things but I don't know how to fix things and make her stop doing those things and be like a normal person. I have tried, but not been successful. Her behavior does not change. So I give up and then go back to trying to ignore her awful behavior again.

Well, my guess is that he would want her to develop an awareness of you and your feelings. It's easier to dismiss responsibility for our actions if we don't consider other's feelings as well.

Yes, that's probably why he did it, MissCharlotte. That sounds right. My daughter does not care about my feelings, if she has any awareness of them. She is not shy about telling me that. I have heard, "I don't care about you", and "I don't care," so many times. She likes to make me feel bad. Another thing she often says is, "no one cares about you." I guess that's when she doesn't want to take responsibility herself for the not caring. I have tried to model respectful and caring behavior to her for many years, but it doesn't work. I have tried to inform her when her words are not caring, when they hurt, when they are mean and disrespectful, but she doesn't care. The family therapist told me I need to let her know when something she says hurts me. Why? I've done that. Maybe some people, if told that, would react by changing their behavior. When I've told her, she just says "I don't care." She likes hurting other people. She thinks it's funny and will laugh. If she hurt me, then she has been successful. You can't make someone care when they don't.

I'm so tired of this. I'm so depressed.

Last night I remembered I have to go to therapy today. For some reason I thought it was Thursday.

I so cannot go in that room with T and pretend things are OK. I'm so down I can't talk to him.

Originally Posted by MissCharlotte

Sunny, just keep going, one foot in front of the other. Don't give up. Take care of your needs.

What does taking care of my needs mean? Maybe it means getting her out of the house for good so I don't have to withstand her constant barrage of negativity. Maybe that's self care. I don't know what to do, I really don't. Am I so important to myself that I will give up on our relationship? Or will I just submerge my needs and let the relationship continue as it is? Keep being the doormat and pretend she isn't hurting me? That's the message I get from that book on boundaries: the child has all the needs, the parent is not allowed to have any. Is there some other way out of this? Some other path? I really feel too down to keep trying.

I'm sorry to keep rambling on this. I don't know what to do.

I'm going to call my T and cancel our appointment. I can't go to therapy in this state.

(((((((((((((((((((sunny))))))))))))))))))))))) I hope you don't cancel. Connecting with T is a good thing, no matter how you are feeling.

[Sannah]

Sunrise, is your daughter angry with you? Does this interaction between you two mirror a previous relationship that you have had in your past? You do have rights, not just your daughter. That book sounds like it was written only from one perspective not both. This situation does sound really difficult for you and hard to experience day in and day out.......

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by sunrise

I try to let her constant insults and negativity and hostility roll off my back and ignore them and not let them get to me. But it's so hard... What does taking care of my needs mean? Maybe it means getting her out of the house for good so I don't have to withstand her constant barrage of negativity.

Think of yourself as a T in this situation, or think about what this would mean in your own therapy, if something like this happened. What is the meaning of all the negativity? I'd guess it was anxiety, fear, terror on the part of your daughter. Why else would she be expending so much energy if not to protect herself against the fear by attacking you instead? Fear is a powerful force. Remember, what she is expressing is her fear. Not yours.

[Sannah]

Just wanted to add something. You mention how you and your daughter have never been close. I have 2 daughters. One looks just like me and the other one looks just like their dad. It goes further than looks. They each act like the family that they look like. The one who looks like their dad, well we are not as close as the one who looks like me. The one who looks like me, well, I understand her perfectly because she is similar to me (in temperment, personality, etc. We are both similiar to my dad). I don't understand my other daughter as well (from the gut). Of course my daughter can sense this. She has mentioned many things in anger. I have worked on it. We are getting closer. Could this be something that your daughter could be picking up on?

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by earthmama

(((((((((((((((((((sunny))))))))))))))))))))))) I hope you don't cancel. Connecting with T is a good thing, no matter how you are feeling.

I didn't cancel. It was the right decision. Thanks, EM.

Originally Posted by Sannah

Sunrise, is your daughter angry with you?

Probably. She is very angry and hostile in general and shows her anger to many people, not just me. She is not very communicative so it's hard to learn why she is angry or if she even knows. Over a year ago, I talked to my therapist about this, and he was sure she was angry. I said but at what, at who, she probably doesn't even know. I remember, he said, "she knows, ask her." So I asked her and she did tell me she knew why she was angry, and she knew who she was angry at. I asked her who it was and she wouldn't tell me. She just said, "don't worry, it's not you."

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Why else would she be expending so much energy if not to protect herself against the fear by attacking you instead? Fear is a powerful force. Remember, what she is expressing is her fear. Not yours.

Anger often stems from fear, so this seems reasonable. But how does knowing she may be afraid help me solve this problem? Knowing it is fear or anger does not help me or the others around her live with the effects on her behavior.

Originally Posted by Sannah

You mention how you and your daughter have never been close.

I don't remember saying that. I'm probably about as close to her as anyone and as close perhaps as she is capable of being. At times I feel a certain kinship with her, perhaps because I do see her sometimes in such pain, and my heart breaks for her. I had a really unhappy childhood myself and seeing her this way brings back memories. One of my goals in having her go to individual therapy is that she will be exposed to the idea and experience of therapy, even if it seems not to help. I hope that someday when she is an adult, and ready to work on her problems and being happy, that she will remember that therapists exist and can be a source of support and help, and maybe she will go to one. I wish I had known about therapists and gone to see one a long time ago. As for being close to her, no one really is--she won't let anyone close. I am closer to her older sister, but yet I feel in many ways I am (or was) more like her. She is like a more extreme version of me at her age--deeply unhappy and alienated from her family.

I had a good session with my therapist today and am feeling stronger right now and able to view her with more sympathy. I guess I'm not ready to give up yet.

[dalila]

Reading through this all, I find myself thinking of Attachment Disorders. Were you separated from her between birth and age 5? Was she colicky or have a lot of ear aches?

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by sunrise

But how does knowing she may be afraid help me solve this problem? Knowing it is fear or anger does not help me or the others around her live with the effects on her behavior.

It may help you not react as though she were a "powerful" person whose reactions impress everyone so much, if you realize that she is demonstrating that she does not feel powerful herself.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by sunrise

Knowing it is fear or anger does not help me or the others around her live with the effects on her behavior.

At times I feel a certain kinship with her, perhaps because I do see her sometimes in such pain, and my heart breaks for her. I had a really unhappy childhood myself and seeing her this way brings back memories.

but yet I feel in many ways I am (or was) more like her. She is like a more extreme version of me at her age--deeply unhappy and alienated from her family.

Sorry that I read into something you said (when I said that you said that you were never close to her).

Knowing that she is angry and afraid doesn't make you feel more sympathy for her?

Actually, seeing yourself in your kids can go either way. I guess it depends if you like or dislike what you see? If what you see feels painful it might cause you to put distance between yourself and your daughter just so that you can survive?

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by Sannah

Knowing that she is angry and afraid doesn't make you feel more sympathy for her?

Yes, and it has helped fuel my (and other family members') sympathy and understanding for years. But now I feel I've become much less able to tolerate the situation, which never improves no matter how much sympathy we have, love we offer, caring we show, and no matter what strategies we try (and we've tried quite a few). Maybe I'm being selfish, but I am needing our relationship to benefit me more instead of it being all for my daughter's benefit. I need boundaries and respect and I need a home that is free of her negativity and abuse, or at least has significantly reduced levels. Even if her underlying issues are not resolved in the near future, I need her behavior to improve for my own sake.

If what you see feels painful it might cause you to put distance between yourself and your daughter just so that you can survive?

There is always the temptation to withdraw, but I have tried hard to hang in there with her and not let her push me away, at least for long. I think the similarities draw me closer, give me greater sympathy for her and make me want to work even harder to improve things. But we (the family) have tried "withdrawal" and "distancing" at times too. You know--give her more space, don't reward her behavior with attention, ignore her hostility, etc. in the hope that with lack of reinforcement, those things would extinguish. But this also did not work. I will try anything the family therapist suggests because I am out of ideas. As a starter, he has told me I must not ignore my daughter's hostility and aggression. He wants me to try to have meaningful conversation with her about them. Based on past experience, I have low hope for this plan. She will probably just say, "I don't care, leave me alone," but I'll try. He does support my idea that I deserve respectful treatment. He also told me that I am made up of many parts and that I need to have more confidence in the part of me that is a good mother.

One thing that gives me hope is that sometimes I go into my daughter's bedroom after she has fallen asleep to tuck her in, kiss her goodnight, etc. She often talks in her sleep. She is a totally different person in her sleep! She's really nice and not hostile or angry at all. One time she even said to me, while in this state, "Mommy, I love you," and gave me a hug. So does that mean that her anger/hostility during waking hours is all an act--a conscious masking of who she is? Is the "mommy, I love you" girl the true self of her unconscious world? Moments like that help keep me going.

[SpottedOwl]

((((sunrise))))

Is the "mommy, I love you" girl the true self of her unconscious world? Moments like that help keep me going.

Yes, it absolutely is! Underneath that tough exterior, your daughter is a warm and caring child who needs her mother. She is protecting that beauty by building a wall.

Unfortunately that wall is causing you conflict, but it is also giving her a role -- somewhere that is familiar and comfortable for her. She does not *want* to be this way any more than any of us wanted to be in pain. If you fight that pain, the walls will go stronger.

But with love, walls crumble. Visualize her saying that, visualize how it felt when she hugged you. Keep that memory alive and strong in your mind, and it will help balance the discord.

My heart goes out to you both.

[chaotic13]

(((Sunrise))) I can totally see how it is a difficult position to be in. Working so hard to finally find enough of yourself to stand up and tell your H that he can no longer verbally abuse and ignore you. That you deserve and demand respect. Only to have your daughter assume the behavior.

All I can offer is that it is important that you convey to her, respect for others is not something that is optional. I would bet that you are doing a much better job of teachering her how to love and value others than you realize. (((sunrise)))

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by sunrise

She is a totally different person in her sleep! She's really nice and not hostile or angry at all. One time she even said to me, while in this state, "Mommy, I love you," and gave me a hug. So does that mean that her anger/hostility during waking hours is all an act--a conscious masking of who she is?

Unconscious masking? Conscious of doing it, but not understanding why?

When your daughter begins an attack on you, and you see an attack about to take place, you say to yourself, oh oh, attack coming! Defenses up! I'd better attack first, because if I don't, I may be overwhelmed!

But what if you said to yourself, wait a minute! This person is attacking because she is afraid! What if you actually saw that? You would not have to try to defend yourself with your sharp claws (or tongue) or long fangs, or with your tough skin -- things that you do not have. You would be armored with knowledge, with understanding. You could afford to react more slowly, not having to avoid imminent overwhelming. Think, watch, reflect...

[chaotic13]

IDK... I see the comments about her being angry, upset, unhappy, volatile, hostile, wanting attention --whether (+ or -),etc. It sounds a lot like what goes on in my head when I interact with family even now in my adult form. The only difference is my life experiences have taught me...that acting on some of these emotions has consequences. In my son, one thing that is so apparent is his inability to think beyond the present moment. I don't think the things you've shared here are necessarily indications that your daughter is suffering from some pathology. Nor do I think her behavior is because YOU or your H or your family situation is to blame. I think your daughter is just at the age where she is trying out/ exploring how life really works.

• Showing love and empathy don't seem to help.
• Withdrawing and ignoring don't seem to extinguish the behavior.
• Having individual and family therapy doesn't seem to yield at least external results.
• Everything YOU are doing to attempt to address the perceived problem isn't working.

Maybe the lack of progress is because... it's your daughter's journey. This is sooooo difficult to accept and navigate as a parent. (((sunrise))) I don't think even a perfect parent can deal with it and not feel fatigued and battered at the end of the day.

Galileo said,"You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him find it within himself." Sunrise maybe all you can do is do your best to hold up your end of the relationship. Demonstrate the empathy, concern, love, respect, etc that you know is needed to maintain healthy relationships. I think although maybe your mother didn't model it, you realize that the relationship between a mother and her daughter is REALLY lopsided during this phase. But if you hang in there and trust our instincts, God/Spirit/Cosmos whatever you want to call it gives mothers what we need to meet the daily challenges and keep our eyes focused on our hope for a future dividend. I think your heart is in the right place, I think you are using the skills you've acquired over the years, and clearly you have the perserverence that only love can provide. You are going to eventually find success.

Maybe she just needs to learn for herself that some of the choices she makes have unpleasent consequences. Maybe your job at this point is to, as kindly and lovingly as possible, help her identify the cause and effect relationship between her actions and events. Say... acting self-centered and uncaring toward a friend... and finding herself isolated and alone when she needs a friend. Or telling your mom to *&^# off when she asks you to pick up your dirty clothes.... and having to endure going to school in a wrinkled/dirty shirt because the clean and pressed ones stopped magically appearing in the closet.

[Sannah]

I like where Chaotic is going with this. So to do this you have to get to a point where her behavior doesn't hurt you and consequences are given for her behavior. It sounds like the therapist is heading this way too.

[Susaan van Zyl]

I'm not a mother, but here's just my humble input - (not that I think you have not tried this already!) What would happen if you told her:
"Mary", I love you, and I will never abandon you.
I want what is best for you.
I want you to be happy.
I will help you in any way you need.
I don't like you saying nasty things to me, but I still love you.
I will not accommodate or accept your bad behaviour.
If you are scared, tell me, and I can help you.
Nothing you do, will make me love you less.
Sometimes I don't like what you do and say, but I do always love you, and that's why this bad situation makes me unhappy.

I could imagine that I would have wanted to hear these things. For what it's worth