Desperately Need Your Thoughts, Experience

Eleven years ago my marriage of 20 years was falling apart. My husband, David, and I were always deeply connected on a soul level, but his untreated OCD/anxiety/major sleep issues were destroying his relationships with me and with our two children. I begged (really pleaded for) David to join me in therapy and to go to therapy himself (he's a Vietnam vet, so receives free treatment). He refused, even though we both knew our marriage was ending. (btw, my husband is sixteen years older than I am and the generational difference was something of an issue, though that itself would not have ended our marriage.)

I met a man, John, near my age (a few years younger). He was working when I met him. John had never been married or had children, but very much wanted to have a family. He was drinking quite heavily when we met (I have never been a drinker). We had loads of fun together, whatever we did...a walk, a movie, just hanging out...we had so much fun. It was as though we were instantly great friends. I felt for the first time in my life that I wasn't burdened with only with responsibilities, but very little fun. I had always been a very responsible daughter, wife, and mother. John and I started having an affair. I told my husband what was going on. He seemed too far gone to care. I continued to take care of our children and the household responsibilities while seeing John.

A year or so went by, John pretty much stopped drinking (his health was being affected by the drinking). I was glad he stopped drinking because I couldn't see anything good coming from the booze. At about this time my husband's parents moved into a retirement community. My husband and I decided that it would be best if he were to move to his family's home (in a town about 20 miles from where I live). Our children (both teens) and I remained living in the rental we'd lived in for some years. David and I remained dear friends, but the marriage ended when he moved away. John moved into my home.

It seemed to me that as soon as John moved in with me things began to decline. He landed a really decent job, which was good, but we didn't have much time together anymore. Meanwhile, my children grew up, went to college, moved out, and so on. I felt the sting of empty nest severely...I couldn't (still can't) seem to get over the loss of having my family living with me - even though my now-adult children are doing very well and I am extremely proud of them.

Through some very unfortunate circumstances, John's good job ended (his boss closed the business). John was hired at another job a short time later, but was fired after three months. Then the extreme economic depression hit. John couldn't find a job, and he stopped looking for a job.

John and I have lived together for about 11 years. I have gotten older. I have gained weight. (When we met I was quite youthful and thin and really attractive...now I'm a "normal" 51 year old woman.) It has been five years since John has worked. David and I support ourselves and we support John. I feel bitter about it...it seems to me that either John could get some kind of employment, could go to school (he has a number of talents he could use to acquire a vocational degree), or - at the very least- keep the house clean and pleasant. Over the years John and I have had some pretty vicious arguments and with every one it seems our relationship eroded. At this point, I am very angry - feel very used - because John doesn't contribute money to the home, nor does he make much effort to clean up the house.

For John's part, he says I've become negative, irritable, pessimistic, and he is angry because we don't have sex. I tell him that he is very moody, mad at life, and angry at me because I have aged and am not the "trophy girlfriend" I was. On the rare occasion he and I go somewhere (i.e., the grocery store) John grumbles and pouts and avoids me as much as possible.

In the meantime, David and I are taking full responsibility for paying the bills and rent, for buying food for John and I - he does cook dinner, which is one thing I really appreciate. Since David and I have an agreement with regard to our relationship, I would like John and I to live together like a loving couple. John, however, frequently brings up old arguments, things I said (for example, family and friends warned me about John, said really negative things about him, and when I told him that - I now accept that was a huge mistake - he only blamed me and said I was making things up...I wasn't...wish I was!!).

John can't or won't let go of old arguments and he says I'm very unpleasant to be around. My feeling is that I was extremely naive when I met John, had no idea of how rough life could be, and I cannot understand how John can't understand the reasons for my unhappiness.

I'm posting this because I would deeply appreciate some feedback. I know it's easy to be judgmental (David and I are legally married, etc.) - but keep in mind that there were never secrets. All the way along everything has been out in the open.
Thank you~

Sister Rags, I'm so sorry you're going thru this with John....and honestly, no one has a right to judge you or anyone else!

Is couples counseling a possibility? Do you even WANT to continue the relationship with John? I sense also, but a couple of your comments that you may be suffering with depression and self-esteem issues, that john is obviously not helping you with.

Even if he refuses, perhaps you should try counselling on your own to help you deal with what's going on.

Take care

Hi Waiting4, Thanks so much for your reply. You asked a couple of questions that were eye-openers for me. I've really only thought about whether John wants to be in the relationship. Perhaps I need to do some soul-searching about what I really want from the relationship. I know I'm certainly not feeling like putting the amount of energy into my relationship with John that I put into my marriage.

I have thought of counseling, especially couples counseling. I think it would be very helpful because a huge issue in the relationship is that we often miscommunicate. Unfortunately, cost is what prevents seeking counseling. It's easy to find free support groups where I live, but couples counseling is expensive. It's too bad that David, years ago, refused marital counseling because we had free therapy from the Veteran's Admin (and the therapy was excellent, at least for me). With John, I don't know of any low-cost or free counseling. BUT...I will do some checking around.

What keeps you from asking John to leave? I am sure there are good things about your relationship that you aren't writing about here, but the negatives are pretty negative. Being supported by your girlfriend and her husband is a very awkward situation- and not really fair to the two adults paying the bills. You feel used because you *are* being used.

Does he offer any kind of excuse for letting you and your husband pay for him? Or for why he doesn't do anything around the house besides cook dinner? I hope he is the one who cleans up after that, too

Do you think you have a tendency to hang onto relationships well past their expiration date? I know I have done that-- and going through the empty nest phase seems like it would encourage that even more. It's okay to cut our losses and give up on draining relationships. It's painful when we'd really rather fix things, but the reality is we can't always make it work. Letting go makes up more space for new relationships to form.

I am obviously not there and don't really know your relationship, just what I read on the screen, so please take the above with the appropriate grains of salt

Sister Rags, do you have any medical insurance? Under the Affordable Care Act, insurance is now required to cover mental health services. You do sound depressed -- with good cause, I might add -- and therapy could help. You might have to get a referral from your primary care provider.

If that's not an option, then please try some of those free support groups in your area. You may find ways to deal with your own feelings and actions, as well as some ideas on how to deal with the unpleasantness in your home life.

I don't know the answer to your situation, but it does sound highly stressful on a daily basis. Anyone ... anyone at all ... could spiral into depression under such conditions. Free support and self-help groups can actually save people's lives. You may have to try several different groups to find a compatible bunch of people. That's normal. I live in a small town and we have about 60 different free self-help meetings every week, maybe because we don't have a lot of professional help available. The groups really can work. Good luck.

Hi hvert, Thank you for your feedback. Yes, I think I do have a tendency to hang on to relationships post-expiration date. I tend to be empathetic, I also keep hoping for "better", and for "once was".

I have attempted a number of conversations with John about his attitude - i.e., how is it that he feels okay about David and I supporting him? Almost anyone would have all kinds of negative feelings about himself, were he in the position John is in. He doesn't seem to have those feelings, oddly. It seems to me that John's attitude is that David and I owe him - he behaves as though he is our teenage child. It's very strange.

As for asking him to leave - I have. There have been two times in which I was very serious - 100% ready for John to leave. He refused to leave. The second time I called the police to my home hoping that they would tell him he had to leave. Quite the opposite: the police told me that according to state law, if someone has lived at a residence for more than 3 months (they have used the address as their legal residence), they cannot be kicked out. Even if the person does not contribute anything to the household income. Seems like a very weird law to me, but I read up on it and what the police told me is true. And, since there's no violence in the home, I cannot get a restraining order against John.

And you're correct - there are reasons why I prefer that John live here. The neighborhood I live in is a ghetto. I moved in here not realizing that the neighborhood is as scary as it is (part of the reason I say I was so naive...I came from a nice middle-class environment...had no idea what living in a ghetto was like!). I would be really frightened to live alone here, and having another adult in the home is helpful. I expect to be moving this autumn, though, and am churning over what to do with John. I HATE the thought of living alone and don't want a new person in my home with a new, inevitable set of problems. I would prefer that John and I live together, but without the constant bickering and wow, it sure would be nice if he'd be the responsible person he once was. Another issue that confuses me - when John was drinking (alcohol) he was fun, easy-going, and responsible at work. When he stopped drinking he became mean and irresponsible. I wonder if John is what people call a "dry drunk"?

Thank you, SnakeCharmer, for your post. Oh yes, I have good medical coverage. (Bless the national healthcare reform!) I'm under the care of a psychiatrist. I'm very pleased with my health plan with one exception - the only "talk" therapy my plan (Kaiser) offers is a once-a-month appointment with a therapist who goes over tools (such as meditation, mindfulness, etc.). There is no provision for "real" talk therapy. So if I seek the kind of therapy I'd like (once a week, an hour per session) I have to pay entirely out-of-pocket.

I was attending support groups (free, through NAMI and through MeetUp.com) over the winter and spring. The groups were terrifically helpful. The groups I was attending kind of ran their course for me, but I'm going to look around online today and see if there are any new groups that might be worth checking out.

Yeah, I do believe that anyone in my situation would be likely to feel awfully discouraged. My husband was never a strong, dependable man...things initially appeared to be different with John, but lo and behold, the pattern is repeating itself. Something morbidly amusing in all of this: David and John share the same birth date. Different years, of course, but the same date.

What are the chances........

You may like living alone more than you think you will!!! I get not wanting to in a sketchy neighborhood and it's nice to have a guy around to do guy things--- but there are huge advantages to living alone as well. Your stuff is always where you put it. You can have friends over whenever you want. You don't leave the house and come back to a mess. You aren't stressed because someone is being rude or snippy with you when all you want to do is relax. If you want to put on a movie with the volume really loud while you are cleaning the house, you aren't bothering anyone else. It's little stuff that adds up

Right now you are living with someone who used to be fun and responsible when he had a drinking problem. It would be nice if he were still that person, without the alcohol, but he has demonstrated for years that he is not that person. I would base any decisions I made on the way he is now and not the way he was then or they way it would be nice for him to be.

The idea that he will not leave even when you ask him to and that he would make you go through a formal eviction process is outrageous. Will you need to formally evict him when you leave? Does he know that you may move?

We have that same law here -- it seems insane, but there are people out there who know about these things and use them to their advantage. A friend that rents out an apartment in her house had to deal with some lunatic who stopped paying rent and then made all of these insane demands for new appliances, her own washer/dryer instead of the one they shared. It took a few months to get rid of her.

Have you read about that nanny in California at all? The one who refused to work and leave the house and who is now suggesting that the family move out until she finds a new place to live?

If it turns out you don't like living alone, maybe you could find a roommate that would actually pay half the living expenses and not argue with you all the time. I know there are worse roommates, but the majority of them would probably be better that what you have now.

Are there any universities in your area that train therapists? They might provide cheap sessions. Sometimes it is worth it to sign up for one class to gain access to those kinds of services, but rules probably vary significantly from one place to another.

I am so glad you are thinking about this stuff now, so far ahead of your move.

hvert, you are correct. John has demonstrated for years that most of the time, he is a mean jerk. And I keep looking at the past and wondering when that fun, responsible John is going to reappear. I don't understand where that person went.

No, he definitely will not leave if I ask him to. Absolutely not. Yes, I would need to go through the eviction process - but, in reality, I cannot even evict him. The landlord would need to do that. What a mess that would be... And yes, John knows that a move is likely in the near future. The house we live in has some major plumbing issues and I'm quite sure the landlord is going to be coming in here and renovating...not something I want going on while I'm living here.

Yes, I've read about the nanny. I don't know how someone stays in a home in which they are clearly not wanted, as she has done. I would be an anxious mess.

Also, yes - there is a univ that has an excellent psychology department and trains therapists. I had forgotten about that option - thanks for reminding me.

Thank you very much for your thoughtful comments. I really appreciate them.

Sister Rags, I stayed with an abusive husband because I didn't think I could survive on my own. Boy, oh boy, was I wrong! He died 14 years ago. I can not believe how much I love living on my own!

You say you are going to have to move. Can you hang in there until the move? Make it clear to John he will NOT be allowed to move into your new home. As someone else pointed out, if you can't afford to live on your own you can get a room mate, but put everything in writing about who is financially responsible for what. Meanwhile, how about therapy or a support group to help you start building your self confidence about living on your own?

I am so sorry you are stuck with this and these hard decisions

Thank you, hvert. Yeah, I wish I had men in my life who were more mature and responsible. I thank God my son is an awesome young man...someday his wife will be a fortunate woman.

lizardlady, thank you for your reply. The thing is, I really don't want to live alone. The trade-offs just aren't worth it to me. What I would really like is to find some way to communicate with John so he accepts day-to-day responsibility better. He did do that at one time, so somewhere inside of him is the ability to be a responsible adult. As it is now, any attempt I make toward communicating with John seems to make him defensive and hostile. THAT is what I would like to change...I would like to be able to hear each other, and consider each other's points of view.

I guess it's beyond my comprehension as to why you'd put up with being used by a guy in order to avoid being alone? I'm not judging----I mean, if you were 21, wouldn't everyone be telling you to not settle for some guy just to not feel so alone? (I'm a bit puzzled as to some of the advice given, as it does seem the responses are different because of your age.) And to boot, the guy isn't just using you, but your husband, too? I'm not judging your situation, rather I don't understand why you are being this guys sugar mama but getting no sugar. Do you realize that while you're wasting time on this loser that a truly great guy could pass right under your nose, but because you're so preoccupied with loser guy in an attempt to not be alone, you will never know if something wonderful has passed you by.

Your story hit me pretty hard. Unfortunately I can totally relate. Please give careful consideration to everything these excellent folks are saying.

Words of wisdom here - similar life situation but I'm 61 and have been replaced by some nasty little twit who is 16 yrs younger than me. So I am having to move. Begging you not to wait as long as I have to make a better life for yourself! Nothing, even being alone (which is great) is worth losing your self esteem or possibly sanity!

Just said goodbye to his sister and husband who are visiting his Mom. They stopped over so he could fix their car.

So hard to give up 12 years. Too much too much. It just hurts so bad. I don't know if I will get over this one. There really was too much too many memories. I am just too old.

Not sure there is any point anymore.

Sorry. Permanent goodbyes are just really rough. Hit me a lot harder than I expected.

I thought I had my life planned. Not so much, huh?

Sister Rags,

So sorry you are going through all of this. After reading about your situation, it occurred to me that it sounds like you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. No matter what you do, it just won't "fit".

I also wonder, are you feeling like there is more you need to do in order to think you have done everything you can to fix your relationship with John? I know when I was in an abusive marriage, I had to come to the realization that there was nothing more I could do before I finally had the gumption to end the marriage. It took me a long time to get to that point, but we also had young children as well and that played into my heartstrings. I realized that I waited way too long before I made my final decision to end things. There was such damage done by waiting so long and I do kind of regret that.

I, too, was scared to death to live on my own and support my children and myself. It is strange at first, but for me, it was absolutely freeing to be able to make my own decisions, to find ways to entertain myself again, to feel comfortable in my own space by myself.

I'm not saying that you and John should end your relationship, that's up to you to decide. I will say though that if he is not willing to learn what his own issues are and to find help to get through them, there really is nothing you can do for him. And, quite frankly, it's not your responsibility to get him to change his ways, it's completely on him. Your responsibility is for yourself, your peace of mind, your safety, your happiness and the list goes on.

I do have a question for you though, are you afraid to be alone with yourself and your own thoughts with no one there at that moment to speak to? If so, I think you definitely need some help to feel better about yourself. You deserve it!

What is John bringing to the table that only he can bring, and that you Sister Rags absolutely cannot bare to live without?

That is the question you need to ask yourself...

Nearly 6 years ago I asked myself that question, it solidified the end of that relationship for me, and thank God too because it helped open the door to my current one.

The John you remember, the responsible, fun John, who held down a job and whatnot? To me he sounds more and more like a front for the freeloader John you've come to know over the past 5 years.

And I mean its 1 thing for John to want a Sugar Mommy, plenty couples are ok with that setup. But its completely greedy, selfish, inconsiderate, immature and unreasonable for him to insist on having a Sugar Daddy as well!

If it were me, trust me, there'd be no moving boxes marked "John"...

ChipperMonkey, thank you for your comment. However, you are judging...let's be honest. No need to get too hot under the collar - you're not paying the rent

I don't know...perhaps this issue is one of those things that shouldn't be posted online. The situation is not as simplistic as "I'm putting up with this user because I don't want to be alone." For example (one example), there are a lot of pets involved. We have 9 cats, a rat, and a tortoise. Were John and I to separate...what about the pets? We are both attached to them, deeply attached. It's very easy to judge and "fix" things if you're not the person in the situation.

I'm not one to say that John is *all wrong* and I am *all right*. He claims that I am very negative and critical, and that's a possibility. Especially during these past 10 months I have been struggling mightily with depression and severe anxiety.

Really, by posting this I was hoping for communication suggestions. Notice, please, that this particular board is titled "Relationships and Communication."

Shadowdove, I'm so, so sorry that you've had to go through such pain. I hope you can get through this, find peace, and have the happiness you surely deserve.

sabby, thank you for your kind post. I DO need to take steps to somehow feel better about myself. It's become clear to me that I have a nearly life-long history of depending upon a significant man to "make" my life happier. Obviously, it isn't - and won't - work...at least, not for the long term. When all is said and done, unless there is physical abuse and violence in a relationship, I believe we need to look within for answers.

Just by reading what I've posted on this thread I see that I am giving John more power than is realistic and healthy.

Trippin2.0...thank you for your post. Again, judging the situation between my husband and I is a very, very different aspect of this situation than I intend to discuss here. In (very) short, my husband is extremely guilty and remorseful for his behavior while we were a living-together-married couple. He is remorseful with good reason. David is quite mentally ill. Believe me when I say that he'd rather pay for things than take the necessary steps (intensive therapy, meds, MAJOR life changes) to change.

Your question "What is John bringing to the table that only he can bring, and that you Sister Rags absolutely cannot bare to live without?" is an excellent one. It is practical, and it gives me tangible facts to consider. Thank you.

My apologies, I never meant to come off as judgmental, I accept and acknowledge that the 3 of you entered into an agreement that suited all 3 parties, no matter how uncommon a setup it may appear to be. I never meant to pass judgment on your arrangement, at all.

Where I believe I may have overstepped my boundaries, is in how in my opinion, I had chosen to describe John's attitude / actions regarding you and David financially supporting him. Immature, etc... And if my description was uncalled for, then I sincerely apologize. I admittedly have a habit of calling it like I see it, and its meant more as a direct observation, i.e, an outsiders perspective, and not meant as an attack on any person or their subsequent choices.

Again my apologies Sister Rags, I did not choose to engage you with the intention of offending you.

Ps. The pets get to live with whom ever can afford to look after them. Simplify and take care

Hi Trippin2.0, Thanks for your reply. I truly appreciate it. Yes, pets have to be cared for financially (and as most of us know, they're expensive). There are, however, other things to take into consideration...for example we have one elderly cat that absolutely adores John (John cares for the old guy, makes him special foods he can eat, etc.) and the cat is also the brother of two other cats we share our lives with. I believe it would be cruel to remove John from that cat's life, but just as cruel to remove the cat from the rest of his family. Those things must be considered - which is why once two people enter into a relationship easy answers go right out the door.

Really, I'd like this thread to be about communication skills. I've asked a mod to close it because I've received the info I need from it (for example - I could have worded some things more effectively) and don't want this thread itself to become triggering to my own (unfortunately) fragile mental state.

Brightest blessings all around~

Closed on request of the original poster.