What do I do when boyfriend and I can't agree on having kids.

There is nothing wrong with living together before marriage but not too many young women would uproot themselves, quit their job and move out of state to follow a boyfriend. People do follow spouses (even that often wouldn’t work out as not everyone can just quit their jobs) but not boyfriends. Especially moving out of state without previously finding a job (what was the urgency?)! I know a lot of people and it’s not common. I’d not recommend it.

I am not really sure what exact advice would you like. We can’t really tell you to leave or stay as it’s your life. You clearly have hard time making decisions. I don’t recall if you are seeing a therapist but I think it would be very helpful.

Rose, rewards of travel makes me chuckle. Everyone in my circle is well travelled and we all have kids. Traveling isn’t just for childless people. Neither is career or Education or exciting places and adventures

That's true, divine. I thought that, further up, there was some discussion about how not having kids gave one more freedom to devote to traveling.

I remember when I was real young and thought that getting on an airplane was the coolest thing. Well, over the years, I've been in and out of more airports than I can readily count. I now see zero fun in getting on an airplane for a few hours. The reality is that, unless you come into a load of money, most mornings you're going to wake up in your own home and go to a job that isn't a ton of fun. Then you're going to come home tired to the same place. Talking to each other about how things went at work gets old. Sitting across from each other at the dinner table with no one else there, you start running out of things to talk about. We are designed to be members of families. That's how evolution has designed the human species. Living alone, or with just one person, is not natural. Your brain wasn't designed for that. Then, one day, one of you will pass on and the other will be alone. Nieces and nephews will have enough to do, looking after their own parents. Their interest in you will probably depend on how much wealth you have.

There truly are lots of articles saying that childless couples are quite content. Having money can help with that. Being very absorbed in great careers can help.

Olive, you don't seem to take a lot of joy in your job. This guy you are with will probably be the main bread-winner. Are you prepared to basically be a handmaid to this man?

I detailed our history with wanting kids and taking about it in my reply to rose.

Like I said he told me he didn’t want kids within the first few months of dating. For my sake he said he would do it to keep me (which was true a year ago) but ultimatly he realized he could not. Especially bringing an unwanted child into the world. He didn’t ambush me after I moved, it was a year after I moved that he realized he couldn’t do it. We have been addressing this over the course of our relationship and talked extensively about it before I moved.

As far as the temper goes I always knew he was touchy- this wasn’t sudden after I moved. After I moved my mom and sister visited and he doesn’t get along with my mom since she’s racist against him and when they visited they literally made fun of him to his face while he tried to cook them dinner drive them around and make sure they were comfortable. So his temper showed it’s ugly head around them and my family freaked out and begged me to move back home. In front of them was the worst fight we’ve ever had in our 4 years. That situation lead to my original post.

I thought my move through very much and I did always see a future with him. I did expect him to propose eventually but not at this moment. We always talked about waiting until he was done with school. He is a broke student so it didn’t seem like right timing. I spent the last several months wanting a change in career choice and focusing my energy on exploring other options. I’ve been spending more energy on my immediate future of a career than my farther future of possible children. I figured the career would help inform my decision to be a monther. We talked about me going back to school so I assumed we wouldn’t talk marriage until after that. I was surprised by the timing. Just because we have been together for 4 years does not mean the timing is right for marriage. And moving is a form of commitment to him that I was willing to make. Even at this moment I still don’t regret it and I never will.

Sure I moved without being married to him but that does not mean we were not willing to commit to each other. We always talked about future, growing old together, kids, where we would live, how we want our lives to look. We were taking it one step at a time. I am at that age where there are a lot of moving parts in my life and I wanted to get everything in line before committing to something for life. If anything it’s a much more thoughtful decision because you may build a career, a life, and realize that person no longer fits into it.

I know it’s my life and there is no “right” answer someone could magically give me to make this okay, no advice that could be given. Either way I’m in for some heartache- either losing the person I love or losing out on having children just to be with him.

I’m an analytical person and a writer. Being able to think through this and write it out and gain perspective from other people is helpful. It’s especially helpful to process this with outsiders who don’t have a personal steak in me like my friends and family do. I know for me talking through all the options and reasoning helps me at least make peace with the situation. I’m not at peace yet but I’m spending time processing through this dialogue with all of you.

So I want to thank anyone whose responded in any way and cared enough to read through my personal issues. Even if we don’t always see eye to eye I thank you. I’ll keep replying to posts if it feels natural.

I’d love to have a therapist but at this point I can’t afford therapy and I’ve tried to look into options but there are none in my area.

Have you talked to the wedding bees about this? They usually figure stuff out and are not shy about telling you their opinion. Something like this is right up their alley.

I like your perspective on cohabitation with SO’s before you’re ready to commit. I think it is a way of merging lives together and becoming more emotionally attached to someone. At the point of moving in together we were already making commitments to the future- planning for where we would live and future goals. The kids thing was undeveloped in my mind as I knew I wanted to be with him and have him in my future but didn’t know if I wanted kids at the time. Sure we weren’t legally married but I consider myself “committed” and he is literally my family. We both feel as if we are married and breaking up would be a divorce.

It may be a generational thing but to me all marriage is is a piece of paper. With divorce rates at 50% it seems that these promises are often broken and I believe you can be fully or more committed to someone without wearing a ring on your finger and bearing their last name. Both of us made our intentions to commit to each other known. We just entered a crossroads where we realized a fundamental incompatibility in life goals.

All of my friends my age in long term relationships are cohabitating. Some with relationships lasting 10 years, some who bought houses together and none who are officially “married”. As children of divorce they never did the legal part but I would call them committed. Actually the only ones who did get married did so for the military benefits or other functional reasons.


I know there is no job out there I’ll “love”. Maybe because I am an immigrant but I was never fed the same fairytale of life being awesome and “doing what you love”.

I hate my job because it is high stress, poor work life balance (often working 6 day weeks, regular split shifts, late nights, 12-14 hour days), and all at a horrible pay plus I don’t enjoy the work. No... I can do better than that! I’m not looking for something I love but I’m looking to better myself. I just had this realization several months ago and am taking time to transition to something better.

So as far as him being a “breadwinner” and me being a “handmaiden” that is absolutely not how either of us will accept to live. I have never not for a second of our relationship been financially dependent on him (which is more than almost all of my lady friends can say). I saved a large sum knowing I would move across state lines and didn’t depend on him (or my parents for that matter) for money and never plan to. He also beleives in having an egalitarian relationship where we equally contribute. Sure he may make some more money than me but I plan on working full time and have just begun thinking other career options. We both help equally around the house- he cooks, I clean, he takes out the trash, I do laundry, ect.

I think, Olive, you have gained some clarity. It is the essence of maturity to face that sometimes we have to decide among options, none of which we love.

This young man has had the benefit of your love over a four year period, during which a lot of women might not have relished being with a student. Students don't have a lot of money. A thin wallet has never been considered a "chick magnet." Student years can be lonely. You've made his student years a lot less lonely. Now, with school winding down, he anticipates a bump up in his economic status. Coincidentally, he just now has decided he wants a firmer commitment from you on the no-kid-issue. (Hint: it's not a coincidence.)

I'm not saying he stayed up late concocting a plan to trap you. But you leaving him now would be less upsetting than if you left in the middle of his doctoral program. His ability to replace you is about to get a good little boost. Doctor So-and-So will have more swag than Student So-and-So. So, if you need to leave, he would appreciate it if you'ld do so now. Then he can cleanly move on into the next phase of his life. He won't be lonely long.

At least you would have the joy of knowing that you got him off to a good start in life. If you split, he goes off having nailed down the education he needed for the career of his dreams. He did it without being lonely. And he had a house-mate with a job who helped keep the fridge full. You, on the other hand, walk away with . . . . . . . . . . . . .

So a woman not wanting kids is okay in your book, but if a guy doesn't there must be some sort of suspicious reason behind it? I find that point of view very hard to understand.

True, one can travel with kids. However, it's definitely not the same. First of all, with the expense of children, you probably have less income left over to spend on traveling, plus, more people makes travel more expesive.

And for me, traveling with kids seems extremely stressful. I was the oldest of three, so I observed how it was when we took family trips. You always have to keep them occupied and plan things that they want to do. Nothing about that sounds appealing. I'd come back from vacation more tired than when I started.

Additionally the type of traveling we like to do would be very boring to a child.

You absolutely can have a career that you love. Or at least like a lot. Ton of people have careers that they really love. We spend so much time at work that it’s very important to like it, otherwise it’s quite depressing life. Why aren’t you searching for something you love? Going back to school perhaps? I think this should be a priority right now, finding career that is fulfilling and pays well. You think you can give up having kids but also don’t want job that you love. Would your life just evolve around your man?

Being an immigrant doesn’t mean you can’t have a dream job and enjoy an awesome life. I am very confused on this (and I am an immigrant myself).

There is value in seeing new places through the eyes of a child.

It depends on how many kids you have and how they behave. Not every kid is exhausting.

Kids grow up extremely fast too. Unless you have kids who fail to launch and are still attached to your hip and 40 (or serious case of children with disabilities then independence might come later), they become independent quite early. Then they can join you on your trips or havd their own etc and you have your own, it depends.

I’ve been all over the world with my daughter (and when she is grown without her, although me and her travel together on occasion), well ok I only have one, but my brother has three kids, one still at home and they’ve been everywhere. Granted we had kids young and they all become independent early. I most certainly didn’t miss anything in life by having a kid.

Sure kids are expensive and so is everything else. One does need to have a decen paid job to afford more than basics.

We only have one life to live. I don’t think it’s a good idea to spend it “enduring” miserable job, unpleasant place to live, boredom, stressed and struggling not knowing if your man is the right choice, not having friends around, give up having kids etc What for? I’d never settle for a life like this. I just can’t relate. No man is worth it. Life is too short to not enjoy it and be happy

Well eventually kids grow up. And fast. So people better have stuff to say each other and do together when kids are gone. Otherwise they probably chose wrong partners. Then this kind of marriage is doomed. And what about second marriages when kids are long grown? And no mutual kids? Hopefully people have a lot in common besides having kids

I think if people don’t naturally want kids, they shouldn’t. I think the issue is when they do want them but are willing to give that up to keep a partner. Then such union is doomed as well.

^^
It's not uncommon for couples to separate/divorce after the kids are out of the house, often because they've grown apart. Growing up, several of my friends' parents did this when my friends went away to college.

The couples I know that don't have children and are content are those where both partners have that have given the topic of whether to have children a great deal of thought and have come to the same decision not to.

It's very true, that when a couple is not on the same page, it's a huge issue. You can only ignore the elephant in the room for so long before resentments are likely to build. That is why I split up with my ex and a decade later I look back with no regrets as far as that decision.

Olive, you are trying to sit and look at a lot of things in your life right now and you are trying to think about your own happiness and quality of life for your future. What is concerning about what you have shared is how you believe that you can't be happy in any career, also that you have individuals in your life that have very definite ideas about what they want and how they need you to fall in line with their agendas and that includes how your job has a lot of demands on you where you work a lot of hours and you don't get paid adequately for all the time and effort demanded of you.

Up until this point in your life you have been "learning" and a part of that learning includes learning how to "manage" a lot of different things. You learned how to manage your studies, manage your time when it came to your education and managing your study time while you learned different subjects in school and in college. Even with your current job that you have to work a lot of hours doing, you have learned how to manage that even though you dislike it and feel you are underpaid. Even in this relationship, you have been learning how to manage that as well. Also, you have managed "change" too, you learned how to adjust to the change from high school to college, the change from living at home to living away from home, from living with your parents to living with someone new that is culturally different than what your family environment had been. There is a "value" in all of this history for you. You have been able to "adapt" as a human being. However, one thing you need to think about managing is your thinking that you can't be happy in a career or that you will need to sacrifice your own happiness to thrive.

The human brain really does take time to "mature" and one of the things that "gradually" matures over time is the frontal cortex where as one "learns" and experiences life, that person gradually gains more control when it comes to reasoning verses that part not being developed enough to screen out the emotional part of the brain called the amygdala. Of course when you began this relationship you sat with your partner and shared "dreams of" things you could experience together in the future. It's not at all surprising that in these four years while both of you experienced more life and learned more that you are at a stage where your frontal cortex is more developed where you are thinking about things on a different level.

It's not surprising that you can't really say or conclude what you will want on different things or how you will "feel" about decisions you make "now" in three or four years from now. It's not surprising you don't really "know" how you will feel down the road and that you have stress about making decisions "now", major decisions. Your partner is at a point in his life where he too has matured and learned and he has been thinking about the life path he will be more comfortable with and he has decided that he doesn't want to have a family and children. Well, you genuinely can't really say how you "feel" about making that kind of decision for yourself, it's ok if you really don't know or are not ready to make that choice. Truth is you are really not at a place in your own development to make a "life" choice like that. Yes, you have learned to manage a lot of things, you have matured a lot, yet, you have not yet managed a change where you can feel happier in your job and overall life "yet". Also, you happen to have strong minded individuals in your life that are trying to manage "your" life. Well, you need to learn how to manage that too and find your way forward for yourself and your own happiness more. It's OK to spend more time managing your own life path and making changes. You can do that and you can manage, but you need more time and experiences before you can truly commit to any long term life choice. The fact that you don't know how you feel about things means you are not "ready" to know that "yet".

Great post open eyes. It’s not uncommon for young people don’t know exactly how they want to live their lives. That’s why it’s concerning that this young man creates such sense of urgency. It’s ok not to know yet.

Thanks divine, twenty four is still very young yet and it's really not unusual to not know what one really wants yet. And when it comes to working, it's also not unusual to find out that you don't like your job either. It's really not being fair to self to look at a job or career as something you can't enjoy doing either. People can and do find careers they really enjoy and it's really not a bad thing to continue learning and thinking about a career change until you find something you actually enjoy doing. Also, every job a person does is a learning experience and it's actually amazing what you can learn that can be helpful towards doing something else you want to end up doing. The same is true for relationships, you may not end up with the person you engaged in a relationship with for a year or a few years, especially when one is so young, however you can apply things you have learned to a relationship that may be a better match, in this case a man who does want a family someday.

One thing I have noticed about individuals in their early twenties is they seem to think they should "know" what they want and stress if they are not really sure. Well, it's SO NORMAL to not be sure, it really is and my suggestion is to give yourself some time to explore before making a big life decision.

I find it alarming that a young person thinks she can’t have career she loves. Why is that? Overall I just sense a lot of sadness in olives posts. Not much excitement about life. I yeah she could have therapy to sort this out

Wow. I find everything you said here to be incredibly disrespectful and negative of me and my relationship. Honestly I don’t need more negativity in my life. .

When we met we were both students. We did our bachelor degrees together, at the same college. So I’m not just some girl who put up being with a student when I was one myself for the majority of our relationship! We were in the same place in life when we started dating. I walked away with a bachelors degree.

He is in the middle of his program right now- smack in the middle actually so he is and will still be in student years. Then after that is the internship phase which he specifically planned with me in mind. Once he graduates it’s not like he’ll be rolling in the dough- he’s got those pesky student loans to pay off plus helping his parents who dropped a large sum on tuition fees. He has years until his career really takes off. It’s pretty rude to insinuate that he’s some player who knows he’ll get girls just from having the title of “doctor”. I was his first girlfriend for a reason. This is not a person who functions in the out of touch way you seem to think all young men do.

And your last paragraph is unnecessarily negative. I don’t need someone telling me that my 4 year relationship which meant a lot to both of us is “someone to keep him from being lonely” and that I “keept the fridge full”. Really?

When we met we were both college students and I was 20. Since he came from a dysfunctional family he never imagined himself to have a wife and never fell in love until he met me. We BOTH grew a lot and I learned a lot about myself while with him. We grew a lot together and now we are growing apart. He helped me deal with trauma, plus a massive injury I had, and has been generally emotionally supportive and encouraging me to pursue a better career.

You said so yourself. You're growing apart. Such is the inevitable in relationships where the two of you have different ideals and values.

I understand it's hard to let go of someone you've been through so much with, but sometimes holding onto them does more harm than good in your life.

The thing is that you can recognize the red flags now & take action now or ignore them & let them bite you later on.

I left a 33 year marriage for the same red flags I saw before I got married (plus a ton more reasons) but those red flags were foundational to all the other issues.

I would have rather cut my losses before the marriage than havibg to deal with all the legal issues I'm dealing with now & what a pain he has become in my life even thpugh I left him 11 years ago.

Red flags are there for a reason & need to be dealt with when they rear their ugly heads.....in order to save a lot of worse grief later on in life.

Decisions are difficult now....they get harder the longer they are not resolved

Red flags after 4 years of dating will be same red flags 10 years later but by then they’ll become red banners.

Whatever is this guy’s agenda he makes a lot of sense. There are red flags, major incompatibility, he points it out because he knows it will not get better. He wants to break up. Convincing him otherwise is a waste of time and a bit degrading in my opinion.

No need to have ugly break ups but wise thing is to separate, and see where it goes, look for fulfilling career and other ways to enrich your life. Become strong independent self-supporting woman with goals and dreams and happy life (and is able to make decisions).

Then find right man. This man might be great but this isn’t “happily ever after”. Relationship don’t suppose to be that hard and sad. If years later you two want to try again (unlikely but it happens), you can try again.

(((Olive)))) all of what you shared here has "value" and positives for both of you. You have learned you can experience someone caring and supportive and he has learned the same. You both have learned you can love and be loved and that is important to personal growth too, especially for him with his history and his thinking he could not experience a loving relationship as well as a supportive friendship. You both have learned you can have value when it comes to supporting a partner in "healing" as well as being able to have a supportive presence while trying to explore an education towards having a future in terms of a career and working.

I believe you in that your relationship has not been about manipulation and selfishness as well Olive. I think your partner "wants" to be a healer and is not really thinking about being a doctor for status and wealth. I think that his relationship with you helped him to learn an important aspect of "healing" too because he helped YOU heal when you had been compromised by experiencing a trauma and he helped you to feel "safe" to heal and move forward, that is a valuable asset for him to have while he pursues the field of being a "healer". I also have a lot of respect for how even if you part ways with him that you will still love and "care" about him. Unfortunately, for some reason there is this idea that if a couple breaks up for some reason that it means a person is a failure, not good enough and now needs to be ignored and is no longer worthy of caring and friendship. It's a narcissistic message of "well I can't use you so go away" and that message is "wrong" and "unhealthy".

You are his first "love" Olivia and it's understandable that he stresses at the thought of not having you "there" with him while he continues his life journey. I do think he does care that you probably want children and a family someday and he really doesn't want that. It's understandable that he is thinking about his history of health challenges, his history with his own family, as well as how his healing career will most definitely demand a lot of his time. Also, the fact that he is only still half way on his journey towards becoming a doctor, his journey will get more demanding both financially and time wise and he may end up specializing in an area of medicine that is even more demanding of him. These are things you have to consider as well because of how his main pursuit is being a doctor and a healer and he really doesn't see himself doing that and being a family man. There is definitely a very busy life style that comes with being a doctor and practicing medicine. I have met different doctors and they have all talked about how little time they have to spend with their wives and families and they are pretty much married to their career. Also, depending on what area of medicine they pursue, it can get stressful in that they do see a lot of sad and even traumatic things in that field and it can be very sobering and challenging psychologically and emotionally.

For some reason we grow up with this idea that if we meet someone and fall in love that will only happen once, this is simply not true. People often think that if a "love" doesn't turn into a "love for life marriage/partnership" that somehow it's their fault too, again "not true". We can love someone and really care and appreciate that other person even if the relationship doesn't turn into a marriage for life partnership.

You ask "how will I know?", well, the more we live our lives the more we learn and grow and mature Olive and given your age and life experience thus far it's very understandable and actually "normal" that you may really not be ready to commit to an important life choice that involves sacrifices you really don't know if you can commit to right now. This partner is asking you to commit to something you are simply not ready to commit to and it's really ok to tell him this. He is asking you to fit into "his" life and choices and with everything you have shared in this thread, you are simply not ready to make that kind of commitment. You "can" love and deeply care about someone but end up parting because of wanting different life paths. It's really not good to make that commitment when you are just not ready and he will have to understand that.

I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that there is a job out there we will always love. I never want to work a job that I hate but I can’t imagine always loving what I do.

I am searching for something I love. I realized I don’t want this career I’m in just a few months ago. I can’t exactly jump ship if I don’t even know which ship I’m jumping into. Over the last few months I’ve explored careers, masters programs, trade schools, jobs. My next step is some informational interviewing and job shadowing. I have put the breaks on this in the last few weeks due to the status of my relationship and serious talk of breaking up and moving back home.

I know that being an immigrant doesn’t mean not having an awesome job. I made that comment in response to what Rose said about the younger generation thinking life is wonderful and all our dreams come true and then real life rears it’s ugly head. I thought maybe I didn’t relate to that because I didn’t grow up with this notion of “follow your passion” because I am an immigrant and in my culture work is work and not “supposed to be” something you enjoy. If it is then great. Of course I’m somewhere in the middle with a healthy dose of “you won’t love every part of your job or every job or every day” but i at least hope to like it more often than not.

My life would be my career, my family, my friends, travel, and a relationship.