[nowheretorun]

Ive been wondering what makes a woman stay in an unhealthy and abusive relationship? Reading on this and other boards, you see stories of abuse and neglect, heartache, broken dreams, and I always wonder, why dont they just leave? I can understand wanting to stay if there are kids. But Im talking about boyfriend/girlfriend relationships. What amazes me the most is how these same people, after they tell you about how neglectful and abusive thier men are, will say how these men are the world to them, the only thing that matters. I'm completely confused. Why are women attracted to abusive men? I hear how it has something to do with self-esteem, but my esteem is low, I wouldnt stay with someone abusive for a second. Are they attracted by some kind of animal instinct? Why dont they think they can find someone who would treat them decent? I read these stories and I just want to say GET OUT! But thats always the wrong thing to say. So how can you help someone who refuses to see the problem, that they are trying to make a relationship with someone who doesnt give a *^7% about them, or they wouldnt let them feel this way? It drives me nuts cause the relationships I have had, I always tried to be understanding, listening, caring, but that was weak I guess. It looks like women want tough guys, but then want to change them. Once the guy becomes soft, they arent tough enough anymore, so the women take a walk. If the guy stays tough, he's a jerk. I feel like a turkey at an NRA meeting.

"This too shall pass...."

[penna]

well, that's a million dollar question, isn't it? here's my take:

mostly, these women wind up with assholes because they confuse abusive behavior with strength--this is a guy who can "take care of business." and when a guy like this treats them badly, the main two thought processes are (1) it's really my fault anyway, i shouldn't have done X, and (2) maybe if i'm good enough, nice enough, whatever, he won't want to treat me this way. the common denominator is these women see the guy's behavior as a result of something *they* did.

ok, so you wonder why they bypass all the guys who were nice to them. well, one reason is that they figure *everyone* is going to be an [censored] to them eventually, so at least the guy who's an [censored] from the beginning is laying his cards right on the table. the guys who's nice is more scary because you wonder what he's hiding. (obviously, the rational answer is that he's probably not hiding anything--he just wants to be nice to you because he likes you--but if your parents and other relatives kept telling you how inferior and worthless you are your entire childhood, you're going to be suspicious of *anyone* who thinks you're worth anything.)

actually, i have a little more sympathy for a woman without kids who stays with an abusive guy than a woman who has kids. once you have kids, your primary responsibilty is their safety and welfare. so staying in an abusive relationship means you're neglecting your responsibility to your kids--you're effectively telling them that they aren't valuable to you (or at least not as valuable as the abusive [censored]), because if they were you wouldn't make them live with abuse. but that's just my $0.02.

[nowheretorun]

Hi penna,
thanks, that's a couple things I hadnt thought of before. So lets say youre this nice guy and youre looking for a girlfriend, and all the women you meet have been abused by thier parents and former boyfriends. After hundreds of nice guy approaches, wouldnt you start to think maybe youre not a big enough [censored]? It can make a guy psychotic. After youve become psychotic, then neither the abused nor unabused women will have you. Any advice for nice guys?

"This too shall pass...."

[darkeyes]

I don't have much to say of any great info. but yes logically speaking, one would wonder why any man or woman would stay, oh yes, you are not "weak", you sound pretty much of what most stable woman would want, but then again I am no expert. I've heard that sometimes when you are raised in a home where you are made to have low self-esteem, you sort of get use to that and believe it is all true, sadly men or women may subconsciously feel comfortable in that relationship cause it was similar to their childhood. Some actually start feeling they need to be punished, etc. I am sure there are books and stuff on the net about this, and I am sure there are some members here that may have some suggestions on this and some sources for info.
Don't judge the whole female population by what you have read here, this is a support forum so yes, it may appear that many people stay in abusive relationships, etc. but I wouldn't let that make me feel that's the "norm" nor would it make me feel I am not of the "norm" if I am not abusive.
I don't know, did what I just say make any sense? Maybe there are also "some" women who are attracted to abusive men, maybe like thrill seekers fighting the challenge?
Whatever, stay the way you are

[nowheretorun]

thank you dark eyes

"This too shall pass...."

[Frances]

Hi Nowheretorun,
I used to hold your view ...till I found myself in a "dangerous rleationship". It is a very eye opening experience and requires a rational attitude to an irrational feeling. Yes I love him still and wish it were different, that is I did walk away but wish it hadn't come to that.

An interesting read for men and women who consider they may be in an unhealthy relationship is
Dangerous Relationships - How to identify & respond to the 7 warning signs of a troubled relationship. Noelle Nelson - Perseus Publishing.

As for my man, he could be charming and caring and I always enjoyed his company. He too has issues and it was really after a year or so that he started objectifying me. I was committed to making things work and spoke to him frankly about what I considered abusive behaviour - one time he "tossed me around" I was battered and bruised though technically he didn't hit me. It was like he flipped and saw me as THE problem when he had no CONTROL over a given situation. He was openly remorseful and we decided to put it aside as a once off. Note here I had always maintained you wouldn't see me for dust if someone hit me. BUT I reasoned that I know of several men including my father who had "hit" a woman once but not a second time and gone on to have healthy relationships. So I forgave him and was optimistic it was a once off. A growing point for both of us.

After a month of BLISS he threatened me. I protested till he agreed it was not acceptable. I perceive a threat to carry the same terror. Things limped along and then he started ignoring my feelings with regard to his behaviour and I knew it was not the place for me. That said, it doesn't make it easy to leave when you love someone that you are starting to feel unsafe and vulnerable with. One very alarming thing he said when we were discussing dog training "you only have to hit a dog once!" to establish the dominance. Hmmm?

It can be SO GOOD and SO BAD. We all tolerate behaviour that is not to our liking but when the balance slowly slips to the far end of the scale then recovers, it is confusing whether you are on a path of recovery or destruction. I also wanted to believe in him as I had done. I lost confidence that I would ever have what I thought I had with him in the outset.

I don't want to run him into the ground, he had a troubled past and when I met him he was focused on making his life worthwhile. I admired his balanced outlook given his disturbing history. I really thought he was tuned in and somewhat spiritual. I believe he was ...at the time. He avoids responsibility for his actions though and transfers it to those around him "causing" his misfortune. I really really love him. I want good things for him BUT not at my expense and that became my bottom line. It is not easy to know where the line is and of course he is not helpful when he is in a frame that can't hear me when I appeal to his better side.

I liken it to when he is behaving responsibly I have "the man" and I love him no end. Sometimes he lets "the boy" out to have control and that's when we have problems. I love the man and can't communicate with the boy. A bit simple I know but it is so hard to describe. Still. We have been apart for nearly three months now and I haven't seen him though we have spoken a couple of times. I figure it is not good for me to see him at his place alone and have declined explaining my anxiety. Mostly I think I am concerned if he charms me again I could be right back into it. I must let my head rule the heart.

Go figure!!!??

[nowheretorun]

Hi Frances, good to hear from you again,
Well, what you said is about the way I think it should go. Once, talk it over, twice, dont do it agin, three times, good-bye. Some would probably even say goodbye at twice. Even once is inexcusable for any reason. Beyond that, youre almost asking for it. Good for you! I'm glad you had the strength to leave. Maybe if all did, these men wouldnt think they could get away with it. MIght raise the standard for us all, wouldnt that be something? Good luck to you sweet-heart.

"This too shall pass...."

[doug]

dont be confused its forplay and make-uo sex yes this wourld is a very sick place.

[darkeyes]

Find it hard to agree with that, what you said is just a view of a small percent of people, there are so many reasons and some very complex.
The world does have faults, but as a whole is not a very sick place, it depends on your present state of mind, your failures or those who have failed you may be responsible for making you have this bleak outlook.
Maybe some counselling can help you doug, get things back on the right track, life is too short to be miserable and believe it or not with effort, even meds it can be not so bad, I know I've been down that road, contemplating suicide myself, with help I have changed my outlook, you have that ability too.
Please take care,
"darkeyes"

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON

[BethAnne]

Hi nowheretorun,

I just wanted to say thanks for sharing, I have a comment about this subject but don't want to seem like a stupid girl, so I won't comment!

P.S.I like your signature!

Beth Anne

This too shall pass!

[nowheretorun]

Hi BethAnne
I'm sorry you feel you can't share here. Hope it wasn't something I said. I seem to be spouting off lately
I just wonder what's going on. It seems like being a "bad boy" is in. At the place I work, I see really beautiful girls come in with their guys. I naturally wonder what brought them together. They seem so opposite. The girl all sweet and innocent looking. The guy looks like some heroin addict pimp. The girl waiting on the guy hand and foot. The guy mumbling and seeming like his heads on some other planet. I just don't get it. These girls loan the guy money (presumably the guy has no work), loan him her car while she goes to work. He goes out racing around all over town, hitting on other girls with her car, shows up an hour late to pick her up then slaps her around for complaining. (I've known people who do this) And the girl keeps coming back for more from her "sweetheart".
It really isn't any of my business. It's not a problem I have to deal with personally. I don't mean to offend anyone. It's just something I don't understand. I suppose I've always been good at leaving. Maybe too good.

P.S. You have a good tag too!

"This too shall pass...."

[BethAnne]

Hi Nowheretorun,

You didn't say anything wrong, it's just that your absolutely right, why do we stay? I am not physically abused, but I've been emotionally beaten up for a while, I really don't think my husband is even aware, thats just kinda how he is. (See this is why I feel stupid) I am explaining away his behavior, while I sit and put up with it. I don't know, I really don't know why I stay............ I just really don't know how to leave, I've tryed ummm 5 times, and every time, he makes my life so bad, as far as the kids hate me, I am a bad mommy, etc,.... to make it all go away I come back. It's just easier that way, you know? No, you don't know..... anyhow, I won't babble anymore, I was real reluctant to reply anyhow..

See ya later gator, Beth Anne

Beth Anne

This too shall pass!

[nowheretorun]

Don't feel stupid BethAnne. It's a hard choice to make where kids are involved. That makes it a little more understandable to me anyway. I'm soooo sorry. Apparantly you've tried to improve the situation. I wish things were better for you. At least you recognize abuse when you recieve it. Don't buy into it and let it drag you down. Have you tried contacting an abused women's shelter? It sounds as if you've surrendered to this. I can only imagine how overwhelming making a change would be.
Welcome to the boards BethAnne. I hope you will find the kindness and support I have. And don't feel stupid

"This too shall pass...."

[BethAnne]

Thanks!!!

Beth Anne

This too shall pass!

[polly7]

First of all, hi everyone...........

In response to - why do they stay? - I can offer this. Being with someone who abuses for a long period is extremely dehumanizing. I think the person who puts up with it after the first time or two has often accepted blame for the abuse, feeling as though he / she deserves it. Thinking this way leads to an absolute loss of self-esteem, depression and all of the fear, isolation and hopelessness that comes with it. Leaving may seem more terrifiying and overwhelming than dealing with the abuse.

I know there are many other reasons; children, economics, employment, etc., but to me, loss of 'self' is probably the main reason.

Oh yes........... and love.

Take care,

Polly

[nowheretorun]

Hi polly
Thanks for your response. I have two questions.
How does someone love their abuser?
How can someone help another in this situation?

"This too shall pass...."

[polly7]

Hey

Good question, and I do understand why it seems so hard to comprehend for anyone who hasn't lived through it.

My situation may be completely different from some, but I believe similar to many. I think many of us came from abusive backgrounds. I was beaten and swore at as a young child and until I ran away from home. By my mom, and how do you not love your mother? I even feel guilty writing this - as though I'm 'ratting her out'. If I'd had someone to turn to and she'd not been such a central figure maybe 'love' would have been too strong a word....

Anyway. I married someone who probably sensed something different in me, and lived for 21 years with all kinds of abuse. But I did love him. I still do. Being one of the majority of depressed people who overempathize with everyone and everything, I completely understand his reasoning for everything he did. I don't agree with it, but I do understand. I even feel sorry for him, because I left and caused him embarrassment and pain for the first time in his life. Seeing him in pain hurts more than I'd ever imagined.

If I could quit loving him I certainly would - my life would be a thousand times easier. The love I feel though is becoming more like of a mother for a child, so in a sense I guess I'm getting better.

I guess this probably didn't answer your question at all - I'm reading it and seeing how absurd it sounds.......

I guess I really don't know. Maybe I don't even know what 'love' is.

As to how to help someone going through this - I believe just listening is greatly appreciated. And letting her / him know that there are safe havens available. Other than that, it gets tricky...... if she still loves her mate she may shut any criticism out, yet deep down inside she's probably begging for someone to notice things aren't right.

I wish I could be of more help. This is exactly why I need to see a doctor!

Stay safe,

Polly

[Frances]

Hi guys,
more to what Polly7 said: I love my man. I resent his immaturity which didn't really become apparent till I was dealing with his abusive behaviour. With out a doubt we see what we want to see ...but who doesn't? I seem to think a mate has this quality or that only to find it tends to be my projection.

You are right Nowheretorun "How can you love an abuser?" Initially the abuse is not apparent. In my case it was really about a year before I realised and it was in my face then. I was startled and did reconcile based on other men I have known whom have had an isolated eruption. Unfortunately we went from bad to worse and as you recall I quit the relationship.

...well about a month ago HE initiated the contact and wanted to get his life and us back on track. Previously I have been the negotiator. He was like a train wreck coming through the window. He quit substance abuse and we prepared a tight budget to clear his debts, including debts to me. One month in and we end up back where I can't reach him. That is I talk to him and we aren't connecting. Jeckle and Hyde. He's off the rails and last weekend I stopped the car and said if he didn't get out I would. He got out and I drove home. He called and I consented to see him midweek. I am inspired that he is doing some thinking but it is hardly consistent and I don't feel I'm the sort to be the strong one all the time. I tell him I'm not his mother.

He is real up and down and I'm cruising calm till twang, I snap. We just can't seem to get a harmonious rhythm. I have said before it is soooohh good and yet it can be soooohhhh baaaaaaddd. I am getting stronger within myself and I can say enough more readily and with less stress but we haven't made any fresh growth in how to get through these times.

Current status is we are trying to patch it together. I'm losing faith and I 'spose I'm waiting till the next episode which is a destructive outlook.

A friend wrote in my album 20years ago ...It is not how compatible you are but how you deal with incompatibility. It really can be a small part of a relationship that dominates and frustrates regardless of how good the rest is.

My man has some issues. Heaps of issues! Who am I? I come with buckets of bagagge. Bottom line is self respect. I respect myself so I will not tolerate crap. He's got a block on empathy and is rather self absorbed as do lots of folks. He objectifies me and others and defers responsibility for outcomes he creates. It's my fault he lost his mobile coz he left it in a phone booth while he was calling me!!?? Dergh. That's minor and current but really typical. Arrggghhhh.

I haven't got any answers. I love him and wish it weren't so troubled. Living one day at a time.

Regards Frances.

[nowheretorun]

Hi again polly
That seems a very honest and genuine response. I'm thankful you were willing to bare your soul to help me understand.
No, I was not a child of physical abuse (neglect and emotional abuse). I have a hard time understanding violence in general. I did play sports, a few schoolyard fights, but I was not the aggressor. I don't like violent movies. I don't like aggressive "cocky" people (including women). I avoid them whenever possible. But that doesn't mean they don't bother me. So I suppose all this explains my denseness on this topic. Penna made a comment above I found interesting. Something to do with an aggressive male "being able to take care of business". I assume that means a woman wants a man who can defend her. Understandable. Violence happens around us everday, almost anywhere we go. But what happens when the defender becomes the abuser? I've heard men say that thier women like it. That's hard for me to imagine. But there they are with a girl on every arm. It just doesnt make sense to me. I guess I'll never understand it. I don't get what's sexy about fighting. Seeing another beaten is no thrill for me. But I will say, and I don't mean to offend, but the idea that your abuser felt pain and embarrasment when you left gives me a little thrill. In my mind, serves him right. Someone should give him a dose of what he's given you all these years. Someone larger, stronger, dominating, mad, unpredictable. Let him feel the terror. I suppose that would only reinforce his beliefs though. Some theory that only the strong survive I guess. It's actually the smart that survive. Half of the "strong" were killed by the other half.
I hope you have success in sorting out your feelings. You sound like a sweet kind person. I'm sorry life has been so cruel to you.
How do you not love your mother? I can't answer that. My mom and I had disagreements, but nothing on the level you experienced. We get along great now. My step-mother was a different story, and I don't love her. I don't even like her. But, she's not blood. I think it says a lot that you still love your mom after all that. At least you don't hate her. I like what you said about overempathizing. I've never heard that before, but I know what you mean. But I cant empathize with my step-mom. I just (hate) her. She took advantage of being superior to a little boy who couldn't and didn't defend himself. It was her choice. She didn't have to. She used me to release her steam and feel superior to someone, anyone. I can't even pity her weakness. To me, she's just evil. I hope she goes to hell.
Sorry, guess I got off on a tangent there.
Well, anyway, glad you came and shared. Stay in touch, ok?

"This too shall pass...."

[nowheretorun]

Hi Frances
Thanks for your insights. It's starting to come together for me. I do recall your post re: the breakup. I also remember that you had set up a few dates with others. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. You really sound like a special and intelligent lady. I hope you find your mate.
Is being single so awful? I feel like such an idiot asking these questions. I'm fearful of sounding like the high master or something. That's not my intent. But is being with an abuser preferable to being single? I've been single now (I lost track) 3 or 4 years. I miss companionship. I wish I had a best friend. I miss sex. But I don't miss arguing, tears, frustrations of not being understood. I would rather be lonely than tormented and stressed out. Somehow I feel you have grown from it too. You certainly sound clear-headed and optimistic. You have so many helpful things to say. I know my opinion may not be welcome, but I think you're grabbing the snake by the tail in getting back together with your ex.
I know it's hard to find a perfect match. There probably is no such thing. I can see how survivng the trials bring two closer together. I can see how the give and take works to make a couple stronger. I would love to see you happy. You're no fool, I know. I just don't want to see you hurt. Please take care, ok?

"This too shall pass...."

[LadyDragus]

we do exlpain away there behavior, but we also need to relaize when he/she wont stop ..
I was in a emiotianally abusive marriage for ten years. It took me a while to understand that walking away five years ago whould have been a whole lot better. I would not be as deperssed as i am, I would not have lost my first child and had a second one unperpared..
many things contrubite to why we stay, or why we go. No opion is stupid, you are in one right now, it is your right to defend him or not defend him. But then it is also your rigth to leave.. NO matter what he does or says. If you no longer love the guy get out.. Do not make the same mistake that I did. ok.

Dont be relucant to reply, someone else may be of help to you.. And how old are your kids. They may only be saying what "Daddie" tells them to say. If they see how bad he is without you aroudn then yes in there eyes you are a bad mom, but that is only because you did nto take them with you.. Understand from a child point of view is very very hard.. ok...

<font color=purple> Keep your freinds close to your heart, cause you never know when you will need one.
Are you a friend or foe? I will never know untill I ask, so I asked <font color=purple>

[Frances]

Thankyou Nowheretorun,
I am appreciative of your genuine concerns for my well being. I am possibly having a slow dawning that I'm not in a picture that is looking any better from one day to the next. We met midweek and again over the weekend. It was my intention to defer sex till we had some resolution. I am not as Doug suggests interested in hiss and spit foreplay. He however wants only to go forward without missing a beat and needed to have what we call "therapy" to put him in a good place!! I analyse too much!!?? Pretty much I've been pegged as the problem. I should let him this or that or give him space or whatever it takes for me to tolerate the status quo.

Not happy Jan! I figure if I have all this improved self worth I protest about then I had better use it. Your words struck home re better single than putting up with crap. They say God helps those that help themselves. I should get off the carousel pony if I prefer trail riding. Like Cat Stevens all dressed up to go ....

Thankyou Nowhere for reminding me it can be lonelier in company than being alone.

To thine ownself be true.

With fond regard Frances.

[nowheretorun]

Didn't think of it, but great point Lady D. It's obvious to me now. The abusing spouse will use any and all tricks to keep the abused in the relationship, including using the children as weapons and pawns. Another thing Penna said about leaving when children are involved rings true.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius

[nowheretorun]

It's taken me some time to think of how to reply Frances. I'm relieved you understood my true intent. I also don't want to play the role of Ann Landers advising on love. I don't want to be the lever between you and your mate.

I think underlying the question, why do they stay, I have to consider what attracts one to another? There's more than logic involved. I suppose logic actually plays a small role. I can only define it as a magnetism. I'm back to the animal attraction theory. It explains why someone would be drawn into an abusive relationship, but not why they'd stay. Or does it? In some cases I think it's true, while others are for the many reasons above. Can anyone shed light on this? Why is power, dominance, control attractive? Is it because we fear and feel we need to be on the "strong" side? Where does good fit into the picture? Are we so conditioned to competetiveness that we automatically draw lines between weak and strong? Or is that an animal instinct? Is physical strength the only kind of strength that matters? If we look at our culture with it's heavy emphasis on sports with rugby, boxing, wrestling, etc. it seems it is. Who is rewarded for a beautiful mind? Are we reacting to the media's portrayal of beauty and manliness? Do we choose our partners because they make good copy? Please share.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall." Confucius