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#1
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Hi everyone, it's been awhile since I posted anything here. I was OK for awhile until now. To make a long story short, I've been married to my husband for almost 20 years. As the years went by, especially after we declared bankruptcy in 2004, he became more controlling and tight with money. Even when he had it. He blamed me for most of the bankruptcy although 90% of the debt was incurred due to HIS business expenses! He owns his own business and paid a lot for an ad in the yellow pages back then.
It took years to get out of debt. Since we didn't have much then, and still don't (according to him), I had to rely a lot on MY own credit cards that he paid the payment on up until he started to threaten me with divorce. This was nothing new as this has been going on for years. Anyways, he didn't pay ANY of my credit card bills for years! He just stopped paying even the minimum payment on ALL of them telling me that I'll just "fill them up again". Ugh! Since then creditors have been harassing me, threatening to sue me, but he told me that they can't collect on any debt now due to the statue of limitation. I just found out that even if you agree to pay a small debt, that statue of limitation ends. We fought about him ruining my credit for a long time! I have almost NO access to most financial statements other then what I see in the mail. I'm lucky that he even still has me on the joint account! Up until a few months ago, I have NEVER withdrew ANY money from our account! I only did so once when I ran out of money when he was on a trip as he didn't leave me much and he told me that I could withdraw only a small amount due to not having enough money. Well, that was a total lie! The teller wrote down the amount of what was in the checking account, at it was for $8600 at the time! I was shocked! I don't work so I rely on him for money. He only gives me $100 a week for food, gas, and whatever else I need. We live in one of the most expensive places in Ca. and that amount barely covers the cost of food alone! Gas here is now around $4.00 a gallon! How the hell can I get by on that? I can't, so I have resorted to taking money from his wallet. There have been times where he has over $1000 in $100 and $20 dollar bills. I have taken up to $400 or a little more during those times. I hate doing that, but I have to do what I have to do to survive. He has given me as little as $20, 40, and 60 dollars a week in the past! No joke! I foolishly believed him since he says that we owe $52,000 dollars to the IRS still and that we could loose our house! Well, our mortgage is 2600 a month. With 20,000 in the bank now, I'm sure that we're OK for now! I know that monthly payments can be made to the IRS and he's on some kind of payment plan, but he won't tell me what it is and how much he's paying them each month or if he's even paying them at all! He has gotten more and more controlling and mean since I stopped working in 2000. It was due to my mental disabilities and giving up on looking due to getting fired at jobs that I hated so often. I also had one issue with getting caught shoplifting that affected my ability to find a job. I didn't want to do it, it's just that he gave me so little cash most of the time and I didn't have a credit card to use, that I resorted to stealing stuff. Please don't judge me for this. I learned my lesson the hard way and I haven't stolen a thing from any store since. Needless to say, that didn't help things between us. OK, so since I found out that he was full of crap and now hiding money in his car which I can't get to instead of his wallet, I had to resort to withdrawing money w/o asking him. I asked him during our last fight a few days ago if it would've made a difference if I asked him or not and he said no. He then threatened to take my name off the account. Luckily he didn't which was a real surprise knowing him. I did make a few $200-300 withdrawals three or four times a month. One time, it added up to being a little over $1,000. He really lost it then. So I thought that if I kept the amount smaller, it wouldn't be so bad. I could understand his getting mad at that amount. I told him directly and honestly that $100 a week is a joke considering how much he has in the account. I don't spend recklessly. I just buy food, gas, get a cheap haircut at the nail salon once a month, go to the Drs. for meds (sadly, that's all I can afford to do now as we no longer have any insurance). He thinks that I waste money on Drs. and he dismisses my back and foot issues as BS. WTF? I have to ask him for money to get treatment for our two cats when they need it. I haven't had ANY medical tests that I badly need done such as needing to get a blood test for diabetes (I'm pre-diabetic). I suffer from bad back pain and I can't go to the chiropractor or even get a massage that often since he's so tight with money and he won't give me money for much in the way of healthcare! He tells me that I'm a "hypochondriac", ugh! During our most recent fight, he was so mean and called me stupid and a fat lazy slob and why don't I go out and get a ****ing job like usual! I'm thinking that I should tell him that I know how much he has in the account and to give me more money. If he doesn't, I'll use that as my defense for needing to withdraw money here and there. Not because I saw a dress I want. Although I do need clothes here and there sometimes. Is there anything that I can do about his very nasty attitude and temper? How can I get him to listen to me and be empathetic and caring about my health issues? He almost never gets sick, and when he does, he never goes to the Drs. He see's them as being unnecessary unless it's some emergency or a limb is broken. He isn't this nasty to anyone but me! He is nice to his friends and family but he treats me like ****! I'm afraid that if I make another withdrawal, that he will take me off the account. What should I do? I can't live off $100 a week! I'm not on disability as I probably don't qualify for it since I haven't worked in 13 years and I need work credits for that. I was so stupid back then as I should've gotten on it sooner. How can I get him to be more fair? Why is he being so controlling and not giving me more when he clearly has more than enough to pay the bills and the IRS it seems? I'm not asking for a lot! An extra $100 a week would be OK although that'd be hard to get by on some of the time here too. He argued with me before that a lot of people get by on a lot less per week with families. I know that's true, but that's because they don't have a choice! He is deliberately controlling the finances and he seems to enjoy the fact that he's depriving me of my needs. He told me that he doesn't trust me. I know that I've made mistakes in the past, but he hasn't been perfect either. It's time that he gives me a break and stops being so cheap and controlling! I'd appreciate any helpful tips and advice. Please, no judgements on how you think that I deserve this or whatever. I am looking for work now and have in the past but I have no real skills. I only have a h.s diploma and a couple of years of community college. I didn't graduate from college. I used to work in retail, customer service, and office jobs. I hated all of the jobs and dealing with difficult people at work and the customers. I'm not suited to deal with the public although I can, I just barely tolerate it. Until I find another job I will probably hate, I'll have to rely on him. I'll have a hell of a time getting a job due to not having worked for so long plus the shop lifting incident along with a first time DUI from 2011. I'm NOT a bad person although this post sure makes me sound like one, lol! Should I risk taking a little more from the account or not? What should I say to him that'll get him to let me take out a little out now and then w/o his permission? I feel like a kid being dolled out an allowance. This is financial abuse! |
![]() Anonymous327401, NWgirl2013
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#2
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P.S....he gets a little upset at times when I go out with my friends which isn't more than once a week, or twice a week with a different friend. I don't spend too much when I'm out usually. He yells at me to clean the house even when I'm tired. When he doesn't yell at me, he tells me to clean the house in a mean way and that when I don't do it right away, he gets mad at me.
I tell him to not yell at me and then he tells me that if he doesn't, nothing would ever get done. Even when I do it, he rarely says much about anything other than the fact that I did something wrong or I failed to put away the laundry when I did everything else, ugh! He is so mean that I wish I could leave him, but I can't due to finances and having nowhere to go! It seems as if he only views me as maid that exists only to clean, cook (although I rarely due that anymore due to resenting him so much), and having sex with. Same story. I haven't had sex with him in months since I can't stand him sometime. He does nothing for me. He is a pig who makes me feel bad about myself sometimes by calling me fat, lazy, stupid...and a ***** sometimes. He rarely says anything nice to me anymore. His behaviour isn't consistent. He can actually act decent towards me sometimes which is weird. Is there anyway that I can get him to treat me with respect and kindness? My friends told me that if I cook, clean, and have sex with him more, that he'll be nicer. Is it really that simple? Is that the cause of his nastiness and stinginess? |
#3
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Quote:
![]() And he's abusing you. |
#4
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Hope this isn't your situation, but if it is, my advice is to quietly start setting aside what you can. Also contact your local domestic violence / women's center for advice and help in getting you out of this situation.
"Economic Abuse" indicators are around the 10:00 position on the wheel ... ![]() It isn't easy, but it can be done ... Good Luck & Best Wishes! Sincerely, Pfrog ps. They'll help you acquire the skills you need to find gainful employment and provide you with a safe place including food, clothing and shelter during the process! |
#5
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Flooded, I know! And that advice is coming from TWO divorced women! My bff who was actually physically hit twice before she left him. She had her moms to move back to though. She is going thru her second divorce with a cheater and my other friend has been divorced twice. One was a drug addict and a cheater and the other one, I forgot, but he wasn't a violent person. He was no prize though. She is independent and happy now. My bff is not too upset anymore about things.
I hate to say this, but I have to be realistic, I have no savings, no job, nowhere that I can stay, not even at my friends place, and my parents are crazy, especially my dad, he's mean and controlling. What can I do? He told me many times in the past that I'd get nothing if I leave him! The best thing to do is to get a job and save up money first! I can withdraw what's in there now, but then that wouldn't look good if I do leave him I guess. He has refused counseling in the past. He wasn't always this bad. He became mean after two years into the marriage after he started his business. It seems as hes' taking his stress out on me! Is there any other alternative? I there any hope that he can change? |
#6
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Thank Pfrog! Until recently, I always thought that the domestic violence shelter was for physically abused women. I know of a group on line that I can meet with once in awhile around my area. I should go to a few of their meetings. I thought for a long time things were mostly my fault. I'm smarter now. What causes men like him to be this way? He had a great childhood and two loving parents and he got along with his younger brother and sister, so this doesn't fit the pattern of an abuser. He was a bully growing up and his parents let him get away with a lot of stuff though. Is there any hope for change? I doubt there is as he refuses to believe that he's wrong in any way and he refuses to see any marriage counselors. |
#7
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Anyone who is this set in his ways and refuses counseling, is not planning on changing. He sees nothing wrong with the way he is treating you and there is no reason for him to change because you are taking the abuse. I really feel for you because I see your issues for not being able to leave, but I wouldn't expect any change in your situation. I"m sorry if this seems harse, but I've been there and took it until I had to leave. I'm sorry anyone has to go through what you are going through.
![]() Gayle |
#8
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You say you have been married twenty years and you now reside in CA. Have you always been in CA? It is my understanding that in CA if you have been married at least ten years you will get alimony and/or a division of assets.
You should talk to an attorney to confirm that is true in case you and he will divorce at some time. If it were me though I wouldn't mention to your husband that he would owe you alimony because I would not trust him to hide assets or even harm you to prevent you taking 'his' money. If you both want to stay married do you think he would go to counseling?
__________________
The purpose of life is not to be happy. It is to be useful, to be honorable, to be compassionate, to have it make some difference that you have lived and lived well. anonymous |
#9
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Of course you'll get something in the event of divorce. Abusers say this sort of crap to make you feel leaving is fruitless and you'll ALWAYS be under his control. What a pig!
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#10
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One place to start may be with a lawyer, for YOU, usually you can get a first meeting/assessment of the situation without paying. After that, if you decide to fight for yourself, take money from the joint account and open Your Own account. ((If you need to go to a safe house/shelter during this time do so))----He really is not going to change no matter what you do, in fact, trying to "appease" him will likely escalate the situation as he seems to feed off of your fear and dependence. I am so sorry----you really have to take action to get out of this unless you are willing to put up with being abused for the rest of your time with this man. take care. There are obviously people here who have been in your situation and may be able to give some helpful advice. My heart goes out to you.
__________________
"...don't say Home / the bones of that word mend slowly...' marie harris |
#11
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Hi again ladies, I'm sorry that I didn't get back to this post sooner. I got a little busy last night & when I tried to sign on this morning, I got the horrible feeling that this account was hacked as well as another one on another site. I panicked of course!
I went through hell for the last hour trying to figure out things on here with resetting my password. Well, I finally got a reply with my p.w on here and I was so panicked about things that I entered the wrong one a few times! I'm soo relieved now! Has this happened to anyone else? Well, I'll have to respond either later tonight or tomorrow. I have to pick up my bff soon. Thanks to all of you who replied! ![]() Angie |
#12
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Hi Gayle, I'm afraid that you're right about everything you said- ![]() You're not being harsh, you're just being honest in a nice way. Sorry to hear what you've been through! Congrats on having the courage to leave! What steps did you take prior to leaving your ex? Did you save up money from a job? Any advice that you can give me would be great! Angie |
#13
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Hi Yoda, yes, you're right about what you said. California is a 50/50 state. He has told me in the past that I won't get anything at all, not even my 13 year old car, ugh! I know that it's a BS scare tactic and called him on it. So perhaps that's why he's more controlling now and perhaps that's why he refused to pay for my credit card bills on the past. He wanted to make it harder to leave and to get a place of my own. He's smart and knows that having bad credit would make getting a job and my own place even harder than it already is with no job and a tarnished background, ugh! Thankfully I now have 2 low limit credit cards that he makes the minimum payment on every month. I have fought him tooth and nail to get him to help me out financially to some extent. I told him that most women would not tolerate his BS and that what he's doing is verbal, emotional, and financial abuse. I used to be a doormat when I was younger, but I fight back now, but in a more matter of fact and logical way even when he's being irrational usually. I have even managed to get some information out of him recently regarding the IRS by emailing him a helpful link. He then told me a few details of some payments that he's made. I won't know for sure if he's lying about things or not until he shows me proof, but I'll eventually get around to that. I'll keep on nagging him until I get the details on what I need to know. I don't trust him one bit and I'm going to start recording more fights with my cell phone hidden and I'll get around to getting him to show me financial documents. I need to plan things methodically and carefully should I decide to leave him one day. I can't just get up and walk out. I need money, a place to stay, a job, a plan, etc...For now I'll get counseling and whatever training that I can get at a domestic violence shelter but I won't tell him about that of course! Angie |
#14
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Yoda, I forgot to mention that he would have to pay me half of what he has if he does divorce me. I'm almost certain that he's dropping money or has dropped money with his family and/or friends in another country. I googled all the sneaky ways that a spouse tends to hide assets and money.
I'll hire a forensic detective or something like that to find out where the hidden assets or money is, but first of all, I'd need money for that. I'd probably need money if I decide to leave him as he said that he wouldn't pay for a lawyer. There is no way that my parents would help me out as my dad is sexist pig who loves him and I never really got along with him past the age of 10. Unfortunately, he's the one who controls all the finances- ![]() |
#15
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I know that all too well! I even told him that he's full of crap! Yeah, he's a pig! I've been reading lots of books about controlling people and related topics. I've tried to follow their advice and only some of it sort of works. Unfortunately a controlling person almost never changes their behavior. I can stop some of his behavior from becoming worse or avoid it, but I can't change it- ![]() |
#16
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The only things that stopped me from consulting a lawyer in the past was the fact that I have NO money to pay a lawyer. And even the cheapest one would cost thousands of dollars! I have to get a job and save up money. As for taking money from the joint account, I dare not do that for now since I'm sure that he'll take my name of the account if I do that anytime soon! Each time that I withdrew money w/o his consent, he was livid! I could clean out the account when I decided to leave him. If that time comes, I'll have to be 100% ready to leave with a job, savings, and a place to go. I have no one to rely on financially. No one will even let me stay at their place for a night! One friend who helped me out once told me that she told her father about the time that I stayed at her place a few days after he scared me so bad that I refused to be around him. He knocked over the kitty tower and broke a couple of things which was unlike him. I didn't wait for things to get worse. I was scared that me might end up hitting me then! I stayed there for 4 or 5 days at her house. After she told her dad, he told her not to get involved although since my husband could come after her too. It's not her house, it's his, so she had to listen to him although he doesn't live there anymore. |
#17
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Joint bank accounts: what you need to know - DailyFinance "My husband and I had a joint account with Bank of America," she said. "I had been added to his existing account. When we split, I agreed that I'd cut up my card and that would be it. I figured he'd take me off the account at some point." He didn't and couldn't -- she needed to sign paperwork in person at the branch to remove herself. Because she now lives on the other side of the country, she can't easily show up in person to sign paperwork and take her name off the account (in fact, they want her and her ex-husband to both show up in person), and while the bank has promised twice to send her paperwork to sign, so far, she hasn't received a thing. Joint bank accounts: what you need to know - DailyFinance So, with that shared, he'd need your signature to remove your name from the joint account. At $4.00 a gallon, I don't know what type of car you drive, etc , but that, combined with the higher cost of food(groceries, I presume, which feed him, as well??), $100 a week, considering your living expenses and the fact that he carries over 1K, at a time?!!? Yeah...that's NOT going to cut it, is it?! Now, perhaps, he can find another way, to ensure that the groceries are a separate allowance?! Name calling, that's emotional abuse. And yeah, who wants to be intimate with someone who doesn't treat them with a little respect?! Your friend, was way out of line there!!! ![]() I put a little question mark, next to the sentence about not wanting anyone to blame you. Sounds like you've grown so used to the put downs ![]() And, you are also being deprived of seeking healthcare. Who made him the leading specialist on hypochondria?! Wouldn't that be up to your doctors to determine? ![]() Asking for a separate grocery allowance, could be a start? |
#18
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Shy Introvert, do you live near a college with a law school? If so, seek legal advice there. Also, many counties have some sort of legal aid available at relatively low rates because lawyers must do some pro bono (free) work to renew their licenses. You need to find someone who can find those assets and freeze them so they csnnot be spirited away. Please don't wait
Nobody |
#19
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You do need legal advice, the law center suggestion is a good one.
And, legal aide. Also, you usually can have a meeting initially with a lawyer gratis. At least it would be "practice" for being able to go that route. Online research can help too--you will find a lot of info on what is avail. where you are, state laws etc. I am going to suggest you speak with a manager at the bank where the joint account is held and ask them to explain their policies re: joint accounts. It might help you to hear someone there tell you that he cannot just take you off as he has threatened (as healing4me has posted.) If you can put all your change somewhere---it adds up---when my kids were young, they opened bank accounts with the pennies we'd tossed in a bag for years---ended up being over $400.00 in pennies alone. And, a job yes---don't be afraid to apply for any entry level job---full or part time, whatever you get is yours and that is so important. What about sitting for other's kids in their home? There is often a demand for that, and you would be out of the house and making some money---that is if it something you feel you could manage. If you drive, there are always early morning paper delivery routes, that don't pay well but again, it is something----(keep your eye on local want ads, something just right may turn up) Do you live in a rural/suburban/or urban area? What is around you? {& please don't dismiss the women's shelter option, they may also be able to help you hook up with services and legal advice} Be safe, keep hope and gather strength. We are all here for you.
__________________
"...don't say Home / the bones of that word mend slowly...' marie harris |
#20
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Hi, thanks for the links and your helpful advice- ![]() If I do decide to leave him, I'm going to be very smart and I'll be ready for everything first. On top of that, I'll wait for the right moment when he has a lot of money in the account and then take most of what's left in there and only leave him with enough to cover a month or two worth of living expenses since I'm not that mean. Lucky, him, ha! I'm used to the put downs, but that doesn't mean that I think that I deserve them. My self esteem isn't as bad as it used to be. I used to think that I was really part of the problem. Now I know better! I do plan on seeing a domestic violence counselor as well as another support group for people suffering from this soon. Now is not a good time since I'm uh, on my period and I feel like crap now. I'll start looking tomorrow and I''ll go when I'm better. I won't tell him that I'm going to these groups of course! I'll just say that I'm getting free counseling, that's sort of the truth, lol! I forgot to mention, the $100 a week is for me only. That covers food and gas plus personal items like razors, shampoo, toothpaste, etc...I often get most of that stuff from the dollar store expect for stuff like deodorant and shampoo and conditioner. I often get stuff on sale. I used to go grocery shopping with him but I stopped since I couldn't deal with him nagging me to death to not spend too much money and rushing me to hurry up and get what I need and get out. He'd also fart loudly in the store most of the time too, ugh! He just buys stuff for himself. I'm so much happier w/o dealing with the stress and his rudeness! Not to mention the fact that he'd let his pants sag so low that half his butt was exposed in public, lol! He never cared about that at all! Regarding healthcare, we used to have it, but the premiums kept on getting raised and I think that he really couldn't afford it anymore. I'm not sure about now though, but I have seen the letters from the IRS for the last few years, I don't think that he's lying about owing them so much. He told me in an email the other day that he's almost done paying them the remaining $10000 he owes them from 2012. He said that he just paid them or is going to pay them $5,000. He said nothing about what the plan is exactly and he didn't answer my last email, but I'll get an answer from him even if I have to nag him to death! He always tries to not answer my questions, but I'll get him to somehow. He told me that he doesn't have the time to look into insurance companies and that I should look for one that's affordable. We have already been denied once by Kaiser since I have a pre existing condition(s). We used to have Blue Cross and every year they'd raise our rates up to $1,000 for each of us regardless of the fact that we're not getting any new or special treatments! Ugh! He is a stubborn idiot who thinks that he's Superman and he thinks that Drs. are scam artists who try to scare you into thinking that you need medical care when you don't. He told me that the body can heal itself. I hate to say this, but sometimes I wish that he'd get really sick or get really bad back and neck pain like me. Maybe he'd seek help then! I think that he's just cheap and that he doesn't care if I get sick or not! I'll also look into health care. What health insurance companies are good for accepting people with numerous issues that's affordable? I'll look into things and then bug him to death to get health insurance! Angie Angie |
![]() healingme4me
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#21
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I don't know if I live by a college with a law school or not. Would any law school do? I'm sure that I probably live close to one. Where can I find out if I do or not? Do I just do a google search? What kind of legal advice do they offer? How much do they charge? Who can freeze known assets, and more importantly, find out about hidden ones? I'm positive that he already has some hidden assets or that he has dropped money with his parents in a foreign country (his home country), ugh! Thanks for your help and advice. Sadly, I can't just get up and walk away right now. I need to save up money first. Angie |
#22
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Thanks again for your advice and help- ![]() I hardly know a thing about computer programs like Word or Excel. On top of that, I already have two strikes on my record, the first was for shoplifting back in 2000, and the second offense was for a first time DUI for drinking on an empty stomach. That was in 2011. The fines were paid, I went to school, and did community service, but it'll be on my record for 7-10 years, ugh! Plus, I have bad credit. As for looking after kids, most parents want people who already have experience. If they do a background check on me, which they probably will, I doubt that I'll get hired. How do I even get a job babysitting kids anyways? I'd have to go thru and agency and there is no way they'd hire me with my background and no experience! I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just being honest! I think that a night stocking job at a clothing store or something like it would be good. I could get discounts and not have to deal much with people. I can't lift anything heavy though as I have a bad back. I could be OK with working on the floor of a retail store as I'd just be keeping the place more organized. If I get asked for help, I won't have to do much unlike a cashier. I have done that before and it's a stressful job to where you have to be quick. You also have to deal with overly chatty or mean customers who act like they're the only person in line, ugh! What jobs would be good for someone like me? Answering the phones after closing hours would be great too, but I don't know where to get a job like that! Any further advice would be appreciated on where to look for jobs and how to get one with my background. |
#23
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In 2000 abusive BF threatened my and my sisters'/mom's life so besides getting a restraining order I went to the credit union where the BF and I shared a checking account. I closed the account and opened one in my name only. Start making photocopies of every financial document you can get your hands on while you are still living together. I think your starting point should be to get advice from an attorney including an estimate of costs and what is an acceptable payment plan.
__________________
The purpose of life is not to be happy. It is to be useful, to be honorable, to be compassionate, to have it make some difference that you have lived and lived well. anonymous |
![]() Anonymous37893
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#24
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Joining a domestic violence group is a great place to start! good for you for making that decision.
I too have, since teen years, had lengthy panic attack, gen. anxiety, PTSD and recurrent major depression. I have always worked. I made it a rule that I had to, it took a while, and at times was, and still can be, excruciating but---really, you learn that only you know what is going on inside you. (and I had no meds till my mid thirties; the antidepressants did not exist, and my one experience with benzos turned me off---though I am fine with them now) Some jobs that have little personal contact and don't require experience, that come to mind are---factory work that they will train you for (I used to do soldering and mechanical assembly---you don't have to be social if you don't want to, just do the work--a little harder to find now but still out there, see if there are any manufacturing/electronics places around; you have computer skills and may find something, say data entry, or basic office clerking that doesn't require a lot of interaction (you wouldn't want to be the receptionist for instance); {btw, can you apply to get the shoplifting expunged?---the other is not uncommon; if they check, we all make bad decisions sometimes and it won't necessarily stand in the way of a job} library asst. (shelving books essentially, sorting, not dealing with the public)---you might want to try something as a volunteer first, so you don't have the pressure of it being a "job" (soup kitchen, sit with/read to people in a nursing home, local historical society (like the library), ----?dog walking (the local shelter usually loves to have people come and exercise the dogs)---it could even become an occupation, again, online you can type in "volunteer opportunities+(your town/area)" Good luck! In time you may be the one helping others who have been where you are now.
__________________
"...don't say Home / the bones of that word mend slowly...' marie harris |
#25
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((Shyintrovert))-
As the others stated, I feel you are in an abusive relationship. I was in an emtional & verbally abusive one for a year..I could not even use Windex correctly ![]() ![]()
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KIRBY ![]() DXS: MDD, PTSD, GAD. ![]() ![]() RX: Wellbutrin XL, 300 mg tablet daily, in AM Last edited by kirby777; Aug 02, 2013 at 08:27 AM. Reason: errors |
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