[rainbow8]

I wrote a couple of poems about my feelings and emailed them to my T. One was about what holding her hand does for me. She has always told me that our goal of therapy is for ME to be able to give the child part what she needs. She said she loved my poems, and then she told me the above again.

I got so upset when I read this, and emailed back about how I know that's the goal, and I want to stop my pattern, but there is a small doubt in my mind. I still want to get that love from HER and I don't know if I can give it to myself.

What if this therapy doesn't work? My H just thinks I want to go move in with her, and he has said that about my other Ts too.I tried to explain about my child parts and IFS, and said maybe he should come with me so T can explain it better. Maybe I got him to understand a little. I don't want him coming with me yet.

I am so depressed now. I know my T didn't mean I couldn't get the love from her now, when I still need it, but when she talks about my goal I feel hurt and unloved all over again.

[jazzy123456]

I'm sorry you feel this way! hopefully at your next appointment you can bring up this feeling of hurt/unloved...because, I am sure your T will encourage you not to dwell on this feeling, as it is probably untrue. you are loved. don't give up.

[zooropa]

((((rainbow)))))
It is so hard, isn't it? My T has told me that the goal is me not needing her anymore. It really hurts. I mean, I agree, and I want SO BADLY to be able to meet my own needs and not need T. And at the same time, it hurts to hear her say that. It is hard to not feel abandoned and rejected.

I think this is one of the ways that the therapeutic relationship is unusual, because no other relationship has the goal of "breaking up" at the end, you know? It's kind of backwards or upside down.

I know for me, I didn't need T at all at first, and a lot of time was spent getting me to trust her and letting her help me. Then I went to the other extreme of needing her, a lot. Maybe I'm still there, I don't know. But the goal now is to get me back to the point of NOT needing her, and being okay. In some ways it feels like I'm building myself up only to tear myself down again.

[geez]

(((rainbow))) I know how hard it can be to want that love from T to cure the little rainbow inside. I too am working on making myself feel loved and happy.

[rainbow8]

thanks for replying, jazzy. I know you're hurting now, too.

zoo, that's exactly it!

I think this is one of the ways that the therapeutic relationship is unusual, because no other relationship has the goal of "breaking up" at the end, you know? It's kind of backwards or upside down.

I'm just getting to the point of being able to ask T to hold my hand or to hug me, and I have to hear from her that the goal is for me to do that for myself and not need her. That hurts me as much as the hurts from my past! I KNOW she will say it's a goal, and she knows I'm not there yet, but it's my same pattern I've had in all my therapies. The T makes me feel good, and I don't want it to stop. How is this therapy going to be different? T says with IFS, my parts will tell their stories and that will help. I just don't know that will REALLY happen.

I hope you're feeling better, zoo.

geez, thank you for understanding!!

[zooropa]

I have a hard time with believing my T when she says, like she did this week, that when I'm done (with therapy) I'll be ready and I won't need her any more. Also, when she says "you're not there yet, but you're getting there", that hits my triggers and makes me think she's expecting me to be ready, like, next week.

I'm trying to just be okay RIGHT NOW. To know, as I do, that I have T now. That I need her now and that's okay and I have her now and that's okay. It is so hard for me to not hurt for the future-zooey who doesn't have T anymore. But...when I get there, when that future-zooey is ME, maybe it won't hurt as much as I think it will? Maybe I will really be ready and it will be okay?

Argh. Circles of thought, over and over. It is something I have thought about so much. It just goes around and around. I don't know how to stop it or solve it, so I just try to breathe and look around me and be here now.

[Sannah]

So abandonment triggers are going off with these comments then?

[granite1]

((rain))i think zoo said it best i'm am so sorry you are feeling so scared.i'm sure your T knows you are not ready for that.but i bet it is hard to be reminded that someday you will

[geez]

Originally Posted by Sannah

So abandonment triggers are going off with these comments then?

Sannah speaking for myself I don't know if I would use the term abandonment (I've never been 'abandoned' as a child because I feel like my parents were never there to begin with to be abandoned - I suppose perhaps by T??) but just the situation where you feel like you need that 'love' and caring that you've so desperately craved your whole life. It's a need that stems from the 'little person' inside and a T is the closest I've ever come to that 'love' feeling being fulfilled before.

The thought of leaving T and never talking to her again or feeling that comfort from being in her office is sad, scary, and hopeless at best. My adult side knows this 'love' (for lack of a better term) is a mirage and is only temporary at best.

Rainbow I hope you don't interpret this posting as a hijack - just sharing a thought or two.

[rainbow8]

zoo, I know what you mean. T triggered me and made me think I'm almost ready, or I should be ready to be able to comfort myself. I'm trying to remember when she said that if "that child part needs me to hold her hand, then that's what we'll do." I thought I made it clear that the child still needs her to do that. Intellectionally, I know that T can't hold my hand forever, but emotionally I want her to. Breathe and be here NOW; that's what I have to do too. Thank you!

Sannah and geez, I don't know if it's abandonment or not. I've never been abandoned either, and I WAS loved by my parents. Maybe not in the way I needed; I've never figured it out. But it's more like geez said. It's a need I've always had and now it's getting met. It's not about abandonment; it's about having to grow up. I always say: "I feel too little to have to be grown up".

thanks, granite. I know T knows I'm not ready. She'll say that's the problem with email. She said something and I took it the wrong way.

[ECHOES]

Abandonment and Separateness... very closely related. Perhaps it is Separateness that feels uncomfortable.

[bpd2]

Therapy for me has largely been reparenting by a stable adult who "sees" me and who accepts me even at my most volatile. Once we established the accepting, the parenting job, just like the natal one, is to give me the tools I need to be independent. When your therapist took you on, they accepted the job of helping you to help yourself...think of it as physical therapy...they give you the excercises you need in order to heal properly and as completely as properly. In the end, they aren't our parents...they are our therapists. ...........Doesn't mean I won't be sending Christmas cards (and Halloween cards) for the rest of my life, and calling up every once in awhile to ask for a few sessions about a particular problem.......

[Melbadaze]

I think until this happens, being reminded that this is the goal of therapy can feel scary. I think its a by product healing, perhaps you could tell T how it makes you feel when she reminds you that eventually you will be able to self soothe your own inner child? I know for me when I use to feel T as persecutory she'd remind me that I must also hold her as non persecutory because I went to session, and that use to feel shameful for me so I told her how it makes me feel and she said that she was trying to help me get in touch with that other part of me that wasn't experiencing her like that. I then said why don't I want to get in touch with that part then? and T said its not that I dont want too, its that when I am in that mind other parts of myself seem non existent and she said I could kick her if she said that again lol! but I guess like you the part that will be able to self soothe one day feels non existent at the moment and we can't get it until we get it, but having that conversation with T helped.

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by bpd2

Therapy for me has largely been reparenting by a stable adult who "sees" me and who accepts me even at my most volatile. Once we established the accepting, the parenting job, just like the natal one, is to give me the tools I need to be independent. When your therapist took you on, they accepted the job of helping you to help yourself...think of it as physical therapy...they give you the excercises you need in order to heal properly and as completely as properly. In the end, they aren't our parents...they are our therapists. ...........Doesn't mean I won't be sending Christmas cards (and Halloween cards) for the rest of my life, and calling up every once in awhile to ask for a few sessions about a particular problem.......

I think this is very true. There is a natural progression from external soothing (from the therapist) to internal soothing and regulation (from me). It's what children naturally do - evolve into adulthood.

It doesn't mean that we stop loving our therapists, or those charged with modeling and parenting for us, but we learn to love ourselves more and better. It's a step that we must take to be truly free and have agency of our own.

I know it took several years and several rounds of "trying on" the adult me before that progression could fruitfully proceed. The lure of instant gratification and soothing from the therapist can be a powerful, but ultimately self-defeating action for me at least.

I'm grateful that my therapist doesn't have email, or an immediate form of communication other than talking. If I wanted to get something out, I would have to write a letter, take it to his office, and invariably no matter how I wanted to anonymously leave it and slurk away - he would appear and I had to face him. He's terrible on the phone - utterly completely terrible. Perhaps by design, I don't know. The end result was that I had to sit with feelings, work them, wrangle them to the ground. Looking back, it helped a lot.

[PreacherHeckler]

My T takes a somewhat different approach to this because there are actually two issues here. One issue is the ability to self-soothe, which is a difficult task to learn in adulthood, especially since many of us have learned to self-soothe in harmful ways. My T has drawn a pretty firm line between helping me learn to do that for myself, and doing it for me. At first he responded to my requests for reassurance through email or phone calls (we don't use touch in our relationship) but for me that led to more rather than fewer requests for reassurance. Basically he ended up doing it for me and that wasn't helping me learn to do it myself, so I had to learn by experiencing the pain -- sitting with the feelings -- while also trying to remember that he cared enough about me to ride it out with me even though it was horrible for both of us when I raged at him for not caring and for abandoning me when I needed him. This, by the way, went on periodically for a few years until I gradually matured enough to realize he had taught me a very valuable skill and it would have been much easier for him to just continue to do it for me.
The other issue is getting our needs met through relationships. My T doesn't expect me to or even want me to meet those needs in solitude. We are social creatures and we need human interaction and love throughout our lifespan, so his approach is to encourage me to find ways to get those needs for love and nurturing met through other relationships rather than telling me I need to do that for myself. He is hopeful that I will get to a point where I truly like myself but he also knows that won't meet my needs for love and nurturing from other people. But he doesn't believe it's his role to meet those needs himself in our relationship, partly because whatever he gives becomes something he has to take away again when it's time to end treatment, and that makes it much more difficult for the patient to leave. It also tends to discourage us from developing close relationships with other people since it feels so good to have those needs met by our T's.
It took a very long time, and lots of rage and meltdowns, before I could accept this but now I truly feel that he did what was best for me by not meeting those needs himself. I learned to feel very close to him in other ways and I know he cares deeply about me and I can feel his caring through the bond we have.

[Melbadaze]

Originally Posted by PreacherHeckler

. My T has drawn a pretty firm line between helping me learn to do that for myself, and doing it for me. At first he responded to my requests for reassurance through email or phone calls (we don't use touch in our relationship) but for me that led to more rather than fewer requests for reassurance. Basically he ended up doing it for me and that wasn't helping me learn to do it myself, so I had to learn by experiencing the pain -- sitting with the feelings -- while also trying to remember that he cared enough about me to ride it out with me even though it was horrible for both of us when I raged at him for not caring and for abandoning me when I needed him. This, by the way, went on periodically for a few years until I gradually matured enough to realize he had taught me a very valuable skill and it would have been much easier for him to just continue to do it for me.
The other issue is getting our needs met through relationships. My T doesn't expect me to or even want me to meet those needs in solitude. We are social creatures and we need human interaction and love throughout our lifespan, so his approach is to encourage me to find ways to get those needs for love and nurturing met through other relationships rather than telling me I need to do that for myself. He is hopeful that I will get to a point where I truly like myself but he also knows that won't meet my needs for love and nurturing from other people. But he doesn't believe it's his role to meet those needs himself in our relationship, partly because whatever he gives becomes something he has to take away again when it's time to end treatment, and that makes it much more difficult for the patient to leave. It also tends to discourage us from developing close relationships with other people since it feels so good to have those needs met by our T's.
It took a very long time, and lots of rage and meltdowns, before I could accept this but now I truly feel that he did what was best for me by not meeting those needs himself. I learned to feel very close to him in other ways and I know he cares deeply about me and I can feel his caring through the bond we have.

Ouch, abandoned you when you needed him?

Can I ask how long you emailed looking for reasurance before he withdrew that? I felt uncomfortable reading this post. Sounded still very much like self punishment, ie, we had to hurt, he abandoned me, he stopped emails? all very smacky hand.

I email T and she responds, how I use email changes though, it doesnt remain static, and yes we sit together with the pain as well, and I accuse her of not caring, but not because shes withdrawn herself, thats just transference, she remains "there" for me, that hasn't hindered my ablity to regulate my emotions, its a great support toward that. Actually there are no shoulds or must's or painful rejections in therapy, why would I put myself through that? theres lots of acceptence, availabilty and "holding and containment" that cannot be done if she withdraws.

I went into therapy used to corporal punishment not looking for more.

[PreacherHeckler]

No, no he didn't actually abandon me at all -- we talked about his responses to reassure me making me more rather than less dependent on him, and I agreed that it wasn't helping me in the long run. He still responds to emails occasionally, but not the desperate pleas for help because I wasn't learning to self-soothe. But it felt like he was abandoning me when I really wanted him to respond with reassurance even after we had agreed that it wasn't helping me. I had to learn to do this and I knew that he was aware of my struggles when I emailed him, raging at him and cursing him. Kind of like a kid when limits are set. I wanted him to "take care of me" but that wasn't and isn't his job. He does what no one else in my life has ever done -- he remains committed to caring about me and helping me understand why I behave the way I do in relationships. I have learned that I don't need him to meet those needs for love and nurturing because I have greater needs for his guidance, patience and expertise -- and those are needs that no one else in my life can meet for me.

rainbow, I wanted to reply, but it's all so triggery, all so much my stuff, that I'm not sure where to start now... Firstly, hugs. I understand how harsh it can feel to be reminded that what you're getting from your T won't last forever and to feel that you won't be ready when it is taken away.

I think others are talking about whether it's helpful or right for Ts to be 'giving it to us' in the first place. From what I know, there seem to be two schools of thought- the first says that the client must learn to tolerate the frustration that their T cannot meet their needs, and the second says that the T does what they can (within limits) to meet the client's needs, with the goal of the client learning to do this for themselves.

I firmly believe that what I needed (and am finally getting) is the latter experience- my whole life I have 'tolerated the frustration' of not getting what I needed. I know how to do that, thank you! But that wasn't helping me to give myself what I needed; I struggled terribly with self-soothing because I didn't know what it felt like to be soothed- I literally didn't know what I was aiming for.

I got glimpses of it in other relationships (including therapeutic relationships), but all those relationships ended prematurely before I transitioned to soothing myself (often because the people panicked when my needs appeared to escalate and escalate on being met), and each time my needs were even higher in the next relationship. After a couple of cycles of this, I experienced terrible shame about my neediness, and knew for certain that my needs were so high they could never be met, that whatever I got I would want more and more forever, and that it was far too dangerous and damaging to even let anyone attempt to meet them.

My current T broke the pattern. She has consistently and lovingly given me what I need. When I wanted more, she gave me more. She never panicked- she held firm to her belief that I would calm down once I had 'enough'. And over time, something I couldn't even imagine has happened- I know that one day I'll be able to give it to myself, be able to be my own therapist. This happens in baby steps- a new willingness to try to self-soothe; spontaneously imagining what she would say or do for me, and trying to do it for myself; being able to draw on the feeling of being loved and contained even when she's not here...

I hope this doesn't come across as "look what I can do"- this is the last thing I intend. For one thing, I've only had the most fleeting of experiences of success with it, and still have a massive amount of soothing input from my T. The main difference now is that I believe it can and will happen. I'm describing it because I wanted to say, if it can happen to me, it really can happen to anyone.

Keep going and trying to trust that things may well work out the way your T describes.

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by Melbadaze

Ouch, abandoned you when you needed him?

Can I ask how long you emailed looking for reasurance before he withdrew that? I felt uncomfortable reading this post. Sounded still very much like self punishment, ie, we had to hurt, he abandoned me, he stopped emails? all very smacky hand.

I email T and she responds, how I use email changes though, it doesnt remain static, and yes we sit together with the pain as well, and I accuse her of not caring, but not because shes withdrawn herself, thats just transference, she remains "there" for me, that hasn't hindered my ablity to regulate my emotions, its a great support toward that. Actually there are no shoulds or must's or painful rejections in therapy, why would I put myself through that? theres lots of acceptence, availabilty and "holding and containment" that cannot be done if she withdraws.

I went into therapy used to corporal punishment not looking for more.

I do think there are lots of shoulds and musts in therapy. Based on my own personal therapy experience, one of them was stepping out of the therapeutic relationship and creating support and love for myself.

What I do not think, however, is that there is a timeline for that step - or any other thing it therapy. It takes as long as it takes. I didn't get where I was overnight, and I wasn't coming out of it overnight either. It is what it is and it's still an everyday thing.

I don't know what I would have done if my therapist had put the brakes on before I was ready. This was something I did myself, in my own space. I never felt abandoned, just more and more empowered and confident.

[bpd2]

I really appreciate all of these posts: every one of them is full of truth, full of shared experience. Thank you.

Therapy has taken a long time for me--two years of nurturance and learning to trust--and feeling like I am "seen" and understood; a year of attempting to learn to self-soothe--still have a lot of trouble with that, but I have been able to stop cutting; a year of trying to learn to create other relationships outside of therapy--isn't happening beyond a vastly improved ability to be a "good enough" mother; something we're doing now that I'm still trying to grasp and don't know how to name....We circle a lot--spiral, I guess--and I realize I haven't actually heard many of the things he's said over and over.....And it's all okay. I am very grateful for my therapist.

He still reassures me upon occasion, I still have meltdowns, he is still teaching me methods of communication and forgiveness and gratitude...We have a ways to go: I am far from independent. He's always there, though, repeats that he his there, helps me coordinate other aspects of my life

[PreacherHeckler]

The problem for me was that I wouldn't have ever been "ready" because this has always been a pattern for me in relationships. If someone in my life didn't respond to me exactly when I wanted them to, I felt abandoned and I accused them of ignoring me and trying to punish me. Same thing with my T, except I didn't see that until AFTER we went through all this. But he knew there was something beneath my rage and terror even though I was certain he was wrong. I had to take a huge leap of faith to trust him when he said I needed to ride it out and feel it all the way through instead of having the pain temporarily cut off by geting what I wanted from him. So instead of continuing to feed into it, he helped me recognize the pattern and he rode it out with me so that eventually I understood that the intense rage and desperate feelings of terror and abandonment were coming from the past and not from our relationship. That helped me realize that my reactions to other people were likely coming from the past also and not from their desire to ignore or punish me if they didn't meet my expectations for reassurance, which means that I am not nearly as likely to push people away with accusations now. I can step back and realize that my reactions aren't necessarily accurate reflections of their feelings or behavior toward me. I could never do that in the past, even though I've been in therapy off and on for many years with many different therapists. So in my experience there is much to be gained and learned from allowing my T to set those boundaries and limits even when they feel awful at the time.

[rainbow8]

I'm getting very triggered in my own thread, but that's okay I think. PC is like RL in that way; you don't always get the answers you need or want. Some of my threads take on a life of their own, it seems.

Preacher:

But he doesn't believe it's his role to meet those needs himself in our relationship, partly because whatever he gives becomes something he has to take away again when it's time to end treatment, and that makes it much more difficult for the patient to leave. It also tends to discourage us from developing close relationships with other people since it feels so good to have those needs met by our T's.

Yes, that's how it's been for me with some of my Ts. But my former T felt like your does. She said she couldn't meet my needs; I'd just want more and more. She couldn't give me what I want. After 5 plus years, I was still miserable. Her method backfired. The child parts needed to be heard. I had no idea my new T would think touch is healing. That's something I never expected. But, even with my other Ts who didn't want to meet those needs, I fantasized about them meeting them. It was worse when they didn't meet them. Much worse than dealing with my current T who WILL meet them, within her boundaries, of course. I also have close relationships with other people and my T is helping me make those better for me.

So, I don't think there is a right or wrong method of therapy. So far none has worked 100% to solve the attachment problems for me. I am glad that your T's methods work for you, Preacher. I'm not arguing with you!

elliemay: I agree that there is no timetable in therapy. :

melba: Yes, the part of me that is supposed to self-soothe is there a teeny tiny bit. I have visualized holding the child when T was away, and a couple of other times. But that's only after we had those hand-holding sessions, which I suppose is all right if they help me get to that point. It's just so hard.....as you know. Thanks.

improving: yes, you get it. I think we established that in another thread.

I firmly believe that what I needed (and am finally getting) is the latter experience- my whole life I have 'tolerated the frustration' of not getting what I needed. I know how to do that, thank you! But that wasn't helping me to give myself what I needed; I struggled terribly with self-soothing because I didn't know what it felt like to be soothed- I literally didn't know what I was aiming for.

I got glimpses of it in other relationships (including therapeutic relationships), but all those relationships ended prematurely before I transitioned to soothing myself (often because the people panicked when my needs appeared to escalate and escalate on being met), and each time my needs were even higher in the next relationship. After a couple of cycles of this, I experienced terrible shame about my neediness, and knew for certain that my needs were so high they could never be met, that whatever I got I would want more and more forever, and that it was far too dangerous and damaging to even let anyone attempt to meet them.

My current T broke the pattern. She has consistently and lovingly given me what I need. When I wanted more, she gave me more. She never panicked- she held firm to her belief that I would calm down once I had 'enough'. And over time, something I couldn't even imagine has happened- I know that one day I'll be able to give it to myself, be able to be my own therapist. This happens in baby steps- a new willingness to try to self-soothe; spontaneously imagining what she would say or do for me, and trying to do it for myself; being able to draw on the feeling of being loved and contained even when she's not here...

Do we have the same T? Your experience is almost exactly like mine. She is breaking the pattern, letting me email her, holding my hand, hugging me, and letting me express what the baby/child parts never were allowed to in other therapies. It's beyond my belief that she's doing it for me!! I ask and she gives. She honestly believes I'll be able to soothe my parts and give them what they need. I just don't like when she alludes to it NOW. Not yet. She scares me. At the same time, what if Preacher is right? What if it will NEVER be enough and I'll be miserable forever????? Sorry, I should have put a trigger on this thread but I didn't realize..........................

[PreacherHeckler]

It may work for you Rainbow. Everybody's different. I just had this huge fear of being dumped again because of my needs, but I started this pattern with him too because it was so ingrained. He thought that it would be much better for me to break this pattern of behavior by working it through and figuring out where it was coming from instead of repeating it with him and having him meet those needs because then I'd still reenact it in other relationships. That's not to say his way is the only way -- it turned out to be right for me.
But my T still allows me to email as much as I want and he also allows child parts to be heard and present in therapy... it's not like he's a cold fish or anything although I used to accuse him of that but now I feel very close to him and sometimes I wonder why I ever thought of him as cold and distant because he isn't. He just works differently than most of my other T's did but that's what I needed.
And now I do feel much better about myself, more confident in my ability to self-soothe because he believed I could do it even when I thought I couldn't. By working through this and learning to sit with the feelings I learned to relate to him differently also. Instead of going into a panic I can tolerate thinking about what I'm feeling, so my emails to him aren't full of accusations and rage and pleas for reassurance or help. By the time I email him I've already processed it enough on my own to tell him what's been going on and how I've been feeling, which is basically what we both hoped would occur eventually. When I can email him after I've managed to process things he still responds occasionally and that works for both of us because I'm not waiting for something I need in order to feel better. I already feel better by then, so if he responds it's like a bonus! I guess basically instead of reinforcing the need itself he's reinforcing my ability to sit with the feelings and process it instead of having a meltdown. That's a big thing for me because I had absolutely no confidence in my ability to do that, and now I am doing it!

[sunrise]

What I am getting out of this thread and the many thoughtful responses is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Some methods work well for some people and different ones for others. It seems two general types have been described, one that Rainbow experienced with her last T (not meeting her needs in therapy deliberately or by emails/call and encouraging her to develop her own resources, get the needs met by others, etc.), and one that she has now with her current T (meeting her needs in therapy with reassurance, touch, attunement, allowing lots of outside communication, and working towards the day these supports will no longer be necessary).

I agree there is no wrong and right, just different approaches that work for different people. I wonder if a therapist tends to predominantly use one method or the other? Or does the therapist get to know the client and then choose the approach that is the best fit? I think it is an important skill to know what methods to use with each unique client. Reading the responses makes me wonder where my T fits into these two disparate approaches. I think he is somewhere in between. Probably most Ts are in between. My T is warm and caring and giving in session (we are very, very close, share intensely, and we do hug sometimes), but he has a firm boundary on his out-of-session time, and is not available to me by emails and phone calls except for scheduling matters. He expects me to be able to manage on my own between sessions, and somehow, I do. I think if I contacted him a lot between sessions and he responded in a substantive way--carrying on the therapy outside of session--this would elevate him to taking up more space in my life than I actually need (or is good for me?), but I would probably lap it up as a cat does spilt milk.

Rainbow, this is a really good thread. Thank you for being OK with hearing people's diverse experiences.

[PreacherHeckler]

Well, I know that this is my T's style with all his patients but he's not rigid and inflexible at all. It's weird when I come back here and read comments because I must be coming across like he's an ogre or something... kind of makes me feel bad because he's actually very kind and caring and thoughtful, with a great sense of humor which I love, and I have absolutely no fear of talking to him about anything at all because he's so approachable and easy to talk to. I wonder what it is that makes him seem so extreme to people here because I don't see that in him at all. (Sorry Rainbow, not trying to hijack this, just curious!)