Please help me figure this out

Oh, rainbow, I understand about HATING boundaries, I do too......that, I think, is some of the borderline in me! I wish I could have what I wanted, what I haven't been able to have and feel like would be OK to have and feel like I need....yet it is beyond T's boundaries now (ie, the hugs and no more of them!) and I have to be respectful of that and accept in a mature way. And not try to badger, bother, bug her about it......I can see where i have been manipulative, not maliciously, but manipulative nonetheless, because I feel so needy and so ashamed and afraid and vulnerable in my need.
It is OK for me to want hugs, but I have to accept that I won't get them from T, and I am trying to - but grieving it. In the same way, you need to accept that it is OK to love T, she says it is OK, yet it is outside her boundaries to say so in email - your child parts need to accept that, too, and not try to push T into more! But it's also OK to allow yourself grief, to allow those parts of you that need to, to grieve that there ARE those boundaries that hurt......sometimes grief is part of the acceptance process.
Somehow I feel I don't make sense, so tell me if it sounds like I am in left field!

This thread brings up a lot for me. I think for anyone who has Borderline Personality Disorder, the word manipulative is used in a way that stigmatises the condition so badly. I have learned a lot about why this is and having the condition myself I have educated myself on it and how it appears to others etc.

I cannot deny I have not been manipulative at times in the past, I have. However the word manipulative seems so sneaky, so nasty, so intentional to hurt others. What about unintentional manipulation? What if inside you feel like if you dont do something you will suffer something so awful you cannot even put it into words and so you do what you feel you have to survive, it's like you have to do it, like an addiction driving you to do anything you have to just so you can stop that agony......sometimes that is something like telling someone how awful you feel due to their actions because you need them to understand...but then you are seen as manipulative???

But to you, you werent setting out to hurt or do damage...you just wanted to stop hurting??

A lot of people may react badly to my post and I am not saying that it is not possible to control negtive coping mechanisms, of course it is, with a hell of a lot of hard work but I think manipulation is such a strong word, filled with connotations of intention.

Someone said that the difference between manipulation and getting needs met is being open about it and I think this is completely true, I couldnt have worded it better myself...however, looking at rainbows situation - what stopped the therapist being honest and saying in her reply "I dont think its rightto answer this via email, it crosses boundaries etc"- were is the openess and honesty in not answering the question at all when you clearly know your going to cause someone turmoil? You could argue that she had already set the boundary, but rainbow is the client, why could she have reminded him?

I dont think Rainbow was trying to intentionally manipulate anyone, even if it appears that way to some.

Hello, I am dropping into this thread because I do understand your hurt.

I know that there are T's who specialize in email therapy and they are the ones who really understand and know how and what to communicate in an email (that being an email therapeutic exchange that is paid for by the client). There is a specific amount of training that goes into that type of therapy. Not every T can do email therapy or know how to answer an email in a way that is not "doing therapy". So they don't bother. Or they are told not to "do therapy" in email.

When I read some threads about emails and so on, I do want to jump in at times and let you all know that most T's are NOT trained in email communication.

It's a very particular speciality and requires a lot of training on top of their regular training. That's probably why most don't do it.

Email is not a secure means of communication and shouldn't be used for personal therapeutic type communication unless the email is sent through an encryption which is used for email therapy.

You can check out some sites of T's that do email therapy and see the difference. I've used it before when I've been stuck without my T and done right, it has been helpful. Not a replacement for seeing someone but it has its own benefits indeed.

I'm too tired to respond to the rest of the replies now, but I wanted to say that I just emailed my T that I'm sorry for crossing her boundaries and that I will try to do better. I said I got help from my PC friends about it. I told her I know what her rules are, and that I HATE the boundaries, but I have to accept them. I said I hoped she wasn't too angry or frustrated with me.

I feel a lot better now. Usually she emails me by now so I expect she didn't know what to say without hurting me. I know she cares about me very much! She doesn't have many rules so I need to abide by them. I will probably have to talk again, in session, about the emails, but I don't want her to stop answering them. That thought makes me very sad. I realize I was expecting too much from her, and that "love" is something I need to discuss face to face with her. Thanks to all of you for helping me when I asked.

have a good night rain

thinking of you rainbow! many hugs....

As far as the post above about manipulation, dizgirl I think....yes, I think unintentional manipulation is a good term. My T called it self-protective mechanisms for me, that growing up I used to ensure I found a way to get what I needed (what I really did need!) when there was no other way to get it or to keep myself safe and I still have some, many, of those mechanisms now.......not intending to be manipulative, but being thus anyway. And manipulation needn't always be a BAD thing.....we all do it in some way or other to influence a situation and it can be used in a good sense to influence a situation/person in a good way (maybe like getting your child to do something you want him to do because it's the right thing for him whether he wants to do it or not!)

Rainbow, why ask your T if it is ok that you love her? Do you mean love as a verb? Or as an emotion? If it is an emotion, you can do what you want--you can love who you want. If you say "I love you" then the person might say "please do not say that." Then, you would have to respect that, but you can still feel love.

I wonder if you are looking for something FROM her back? For her to say she loves you too. That is what I suspect.

It is very dificult to accept that a T is just that--and they are not actually "real" as in they cannot be what others are in our lives. It feels good because they have that unconditional acceptance that they must have to do their jobs. Sure, they care about us, but it has to be within very strict boundaries. Leading you to believe they can be something more to you would be wrong and untrue. Your T might care and might like you very much; however, she cannot become a real friend or a real mother or a real anything. It is sad when we like them so much. It is best to find the real friends in the world who can really respond. When there are needs inside of us and it seems easy to be close to a T we do not really have to try in the world then do we? We think we have what we need in those sessions. It is a type of fantasy. It is not a reality. They cannot possibly give us what we really need.

This is so sad but so true!

butterflying, your post made me cry. I know my T won't say she loves me though she said "I love her" when we were talking about a child part and she asked what she wanted from her. She also wrote "love and hugs" on the birthday card we made together. But I honestly just want to tell her how I feel about HER. Love is hard for me to express to anyone except my kids and grandchildren.

I got a short response from my T just now, saying we will talk about all of it when I see her, and to have a safe trip back. I immediately felt so angry and hurt. I had to email again because she said a different time than she did in the other email, and I wanted to lash out at her and say how angry I was. A friend in RL disappointed me today, and I feel upset in general. Then, your post, which is absolutely true! So, I wanted to tell my T what I just wrote above but I didn't!!! I just asked about the time of my session.

I wanted to write that maybe I'll never go back!!! I can't cope with therapy and my feelings for her.

Hey Rainbow,

what was it that made you feel angry about her response?

Thank you for asking, dizgirl. I'm angry and sad because my T's reply was so terse. I wrote her a long apology for crossing boundaries and she just said "we'll talk about it when I see you". I can't help it. I just burst into tears after I read that. It's hard because I've missed 2 sessions and before that, my T was away for one. So I haven't seen her much at all lately. It will be 3 weeks. She's so nice to me in sessions that I have trouble accepting the way she is in her emails. In the beginning she answered my emails in detail and once wrote in a different color so she could be sure to answer everything, she said! I wish she had never done that because I felt so, so good when she did. Then she changed her mind when I emailed too much and got upset with her responses.

It triggers my feelings of rejection, too.

Her reply wasn't terse at all. That is your perception. She simply said you would talk about it during session. That's that boundary you aren't liking. You know she won't do therapy over email. It isn't mean of her to hold her boundary. She isn't rejecting you. She is simply saying you will discuss things when you are face to face in session. Try not to apply some meaning that is not intended by her.

Chris, you're right but it makes me cry and cry and feel depressed and angry and all sorts of bad feelings that I don't know how to deal with.

Rainbow, I'm sorry if you've answered this question already in your thread but have you talked to your T about the change she made in the way she communicates with email?

Hey Rainbow, I do understand were you are coming from, I know I read into things my therapist says or does and I usually find I am nearly always wrong when I make assumptions about why she did something but it doesn't stop me feeling I must be right at the time and getting myself down. I do have a better handle over it than I used to but it's hard, so i can appreciate how you must be feeling.

Do you think perhaps your therapist was right about email contact upsetting you though, when she was replying in detail did you find that you still found bits of the email left you feeling concerned?

xxx

rainbow,
you keep saying "you're right" in response to people's posts to you, but you just ignore what people are telling you and continue to act as if you have no clue why T is not responding the way you want.

Rainbow, it sounds like this latest series of emails have become just too upsetting for you--like anything your T could write right now would have some perceived flaw or hurtful aspect to it, even if it were totally benign. I think taking a break from the emails now and waiting until session, as your T suggested, is a good plan. In session, it is so much easier to see and hear what T really means and intends, and draw reassurance from feeling the strength and reality of your relationship.

Rainbow, have you and your T talked about helping you get some coping skills on board so you can better deal with these intensely sad and angry feelings that arise? It may sound like boring work, compared to the interesting stuff you do with EMDR and IFS, but it could be so useful to you in so many situations. When I feel really sad, sometimes the most relieving thing is just to go off by myself and cry and cry. (I think there are stress molecules that are shed in our tears, so a good cry can help us feel better when we're sad.)

You are being triggered?

Suratji--thanks for your question. Yes, we talked about the changes in her email rules. She thought that her responses were starting to hurt me more than help me, so we discussed what to do. She thought she shouldn't answer me at all, and we tried that for a week. I told her I missed her wishing me a good week-end or writing something brief, so she said she could do that. But it ended up that she writes a few sentences about something I've told her if it's something positive I've done in RL. That's been fine except when I write about my feelings for her. It depends what I write.

The problem is that I want to tell her all of my feelings right after a session. It's hard for me not to need a reply, a validation that what I say is all right. I have to remember that not long ago she told me that no matter what I write in my emails, she will still like me very much, and that will never change.

Dizgirl:
Yes, sometimes I felt I needed to clarify something she wrote or felt she didn't quite understand. I know that's why she said she doesn't like email, but she always told me it was fine to email her.

Tay: You're right! Sorry I couldn't help that and I'm not being sarcastic, just trying to be funny. Well, there's a difference between knowing something and accepting it emotionally, don't you think? My T is responding that way because she thinks it's best for me, and for her. I KNOW that but it still makes me unhappy. I know she cares very much about me but I still feel hurt. I know she made the rule to help me, not to be mean to me. But I still feel hurt.

sunrise: My T will only write back once per week no matter how many emails I send, so that's one limit I have no control over. I do agree that it's best I don't email HER any more before my session, if that's what you meant.

Coping skills? That's a good question. I think that's what she's doing with the breathing, meditation, and exercise. It IS helping me to practice mindfulness meditation and walk outside more. She also told me that crying is good if I feel like it. She also keeps telling me that my parts don't have to run the show, that my Self is capable. She suggests doing something I like such as drawing or collages. I don't know if she's seen me so sad or angry; I don't show it in sessions very much, just afterwards and in my emails. She's also told me I don't have give my feelings so much power. I think that was what she said. I know she's told me more, but not as a separate topic called "coping skills."

Sannah, I suppose I'm being triggered. I hate being ignored; it makes me feel like I'm being rejected. I have a close friend who moved away and I used to write her letters. She never responded to my questions and wrote much less than I did. That hurt me. I had a pen pal who responded to every single thing I wrote. I did the same with her. I liked that! I think it goes back to letters I wrote my Mom when I was away at camp. She wrote back and always answered every single part of my letter. Plus, when I was younger, kids used to ignore me. I hate being ignored! So, yes you could say I get triggered, especially when I write something risky in my emails. I SHOULD have known not to expect her to answer, though. I thought she'd make an exception because I asked her so directly to answer me.

I know how this feels, I often find myself thinking of loads of things I want to say right after a session and wishing I could tell my therapist those things there and then but unfortunately we can't.

I find that by writing down what happened in the session and anything that comes into my head after the session (that I wish I had said) helps me get it off my chest and feel a bit more relaxed about it. I then also know I will remember it if I want to take it into the following session. You may benefit from this type of journal writing?

I also find after a session, emotions tend to be high and sometimes its best to wait out the feelings until the following day at least and if by then you still feel the extreme need to contact your therapist then, then at least you have given it some time.

I know its hard to feel the way you do, I understand!

(((((((((((((( rainbow ))))))))))))))

Thanks, dizgirl. I try to wait a day before emailing my T. It's hard now because it will be 3 weeks since my last session when I see her this Wednesday. Breaks are hard!

Thanks so much, fuzzybear! I appreciate all of your hugs!

Dizgirl,I have time to respond to this post now. My former T used to tell me I was manipulating her with my phone calls to her. I didn't think I was. Yes, I agree that it's unintentional!! Yes, it feels like an addiction when I want something so badly from my T, whether it's validation or reassurance, or her telling me she cares about me. Yes! I don't feel like I'm being manipulative. I just feel SO awful at the time. I want my needs to be met and I'm not thinking it's not right to ask. It's very confusing! My T seems to agree with me because she told me I wasn't being manipulative when I told her about my experiences with my past T. I think she will understand that part of me needed what I needed right then. But, she will also say that my parts don't have to "run the show" and my Self can tell that needy part what she needs to hear. At least I think that's what my T will say.

Yes, I just wanted to stop hurting!! The hurt came from needing my feelings to be validated, told I'm okay. I know I'm supposed to think that myself, but it's hard!! Thanks for your understanding, dizgirl.

I know you don't mean to hurt anyone......I think you are wanting both to stop hurting and to protect yourself and to get your needs met. These are things I developed coping mechanisms to do, too, so I do understand......it's not a malicious thing, but rather a self-protective mechanism, behaviors that are meant to move others to get our needs met. But it's not mean or nasty....not all manipulation is evil, so much of it is instinctive, not even thought out.
I guess for myself, not for you, but myself, I would call it self-centered, that is, centered on my self, obtaining needs for myself - kind of selfish. We all do some of that, it's just that my particular behaviors toward that aim are not healthy and not appreciated by others who FEEL manipulated! I don't mean to be manipulative though, and am glad i am learning more about healthier ways to get my needs met. And I think you are learning more about your patterns and better ways to get your needs met too...... ((((((((((rainbow)))))))))))

I'm new here, but just want to say that I think all of you have given some really heartfelt and courageously honest answers to a very sensitive subject. No one likes rejection, and it is very hard to be vulnerable...hope I haven't overstepped or misunderstood....?