[miss_my_friend]

Hi. I'm new. I'm glad to have found this site.

I have to be honest with you all to ask for your help so I'll hope you'll not condemn me right of the bat. I'm in alot of pain.

I've lost my best friend over the last few months and all attempts by me to get her back in my life have failed. I'm really at wit's end, and have no idea how to get over this pain and depression. I don't know why she ended our friendship, and she won't return my calls and emails.

We met over four years ago in a night class. The friendship wa casual at first and then went deeper as we told each other our deepest wishes, hopes and pains.

I know this might follow a cliched format from here . . .but please stick with me. The biggest source of pain in my life was, and still is, other than this new pain, my very poor marriage. I've been married for 19 years but our children are very young.

I guess I'd claim unhappiness in my marriage due to my wife's overwhelming materialism which is then linked to her pessimism. I'd say she's depressed. The most overt sign of my wife's problem is uncontrolable rage which is usually vented at me. It's been really bad for about 7 years now.

All attempts at marriage counseling have been unsuccessful because my wife is certain that if I just made enough money so that she could buy whatever she wanted, whenever she wanted, and could get a cleaner, cook and nanny for the kids . . . .then she'd be happy. It's really her upbringing and the model her parents showed her. For some reason it took about 12 years, or when kids arrived on the scene for me to really start feeling the pain of this life-style.

So my friend gave me emotional support. She let me know that I was a good enough husband, father, and man. God, I can't tell you how good that was to feel that way. To HEAR those words, especially from a woman.

I should also throw in that I'm not prepared to leave my marriage and surrender 99% of control of my kids (day-to-day) to my wife.

For two years the friendship kept me going emotionally, mentally, spritually. And my friends actually became kinda friends with my wife over this time too. I became friends with her husband.

She always claimed to have a very good marriage and that's why it was hard for me to understand why she began making sexual advances towards me about two years ago.

I ignored them at first, but as a man who was only finding his wife in the mood for love making about once every 4 to 6 months, I realize that I was very susceptible.

One night, after class, after a long talk, she asked for a hug. I hugged her and she turned her mouth for a kiss, and I started kissing her. I just let it all go.

I resisted escalating this for awhile fooling myself that someone my salvation was fine as long as it was "just kissing" or "just fondling" but I wasn't fooling anyone but myself. In my heart I already knew that I loved this woman.

She also professed her love for me. Many times. I'd ask her how she reconciled her life with her husband and children with me and she said she just could. I eventually warned her, that given my home life, that I was very much in love with her and NEEDED her. She liked that, and encouraged that.

We made love about 6 times before I realized that the physical had to stop. She was coming to this conclusion too. Me, because I wanted to keep a home-life in tact for my kids. Her, for the same reason plus her love love for her husband. And while the thought didn't stop us in the first place, it was just very, very wrong.

The stopping of the sexual part of us I know was a mutual decision. It truly was. More than anything, I needed for her to remain mt best friend. For the better part of a year, it seemed like we were maintaining just such a relationship.

About seven months ago my wife had a rage incident involving my friend and some others. While my wife apologized, thing were different. My friend also came under alot of stress and her pattern was always to withdraw a little under stress.

But she always came back. This time she just kept pulling away. As I pressed for a lunch (we work less than half a mile away) or a talk on the phone, she started being unavailable.

About a month ago I really pressed for a get together (lunch) and she responded by saying she could no longer be my friend. That I needed something she couldn't give. I replied that all I wanted was an occassional lunch and to be able to chat once in awhile. That the friendship was an important sourse of strength for me. I asked (begged) for her not to take that away.

I haven't heard from her since then.

I'm dying inside, and I'd say ten minutes don't go by in each day where I'm not thinking about her and the deep friendship we shared. It meant EVERYTHING to me. How could it, how could I, mean nothing to her?

Please someone help me! Any ideas how to get my best friend back? I'll take any sort of relationship now, ANY! As long as I can occassionally see her and talk to her! Please help me! I've never been this out of control with my thoughts and emotions before.

Thanks,

MMF

[Zenobia]

I will tell you what my therapist told me when I was having the same feelings of need for a friend that I could not have. Your friend was taking the place of the intimacy you found lacking with your wife. I am not talking sexual intamacy but emotional intamacy. As long as you focus this energy on your friend you will have no reason to improve relations with your wife. It is hard letting go of a friendship that made you feel so good. It kinda feels like losing a part of yourself. At least it did for me. I still have time that I want to contact my friend. My T has taught me to use these feelings as a gauge of how I am feeling in my marital relationship. The stronger the desire the more I need to look at what is wrong at home.

Yes, I understand that your wife is difficult. I don't think that marriage counsoling would be benificial at this time but she really should see someone on her own to find the source of her rage. It wouldn't hurt for you to go in on your own to get support for your loss of a close relationship and for the trials ahead of you with your wife. Eventually you will both reach a space where you will be able to talk, then marital counciling will be a very good thing.

Take care,
You can get through this,
Zen<font color=blue>

Deal with the difficult while it is still easy. Solve large problems when they are still small. Preventing large problems by taking small steps is easier the solving them. Therefore, the Tao person anticipates and lives wisely, by small actions accomplishing great things.--From the Tao Te Ching

[miss_my_friend]

Thanks, Zen for your kind reply. Thanks for not condenming right away.

You're pretty much right on in your assessment of my emotional life. But I'd like to ask you, or anyone, if we acknowledge this need for a close intimacy with another human being (and for a man it'd seem natural that it'd be with a woman) . . . . .what do you do when your spouse repeatedly turns down, or cannot given you the level of intimacy that you need? In spite of all your attempts?

How does one meet that need. I know that affairs ARE NOT the answer. But I have to say, given my life, ANY woman that's pretty nice to me runs a risk of me attaching to her. Especially if we have YEARS to build a friendship. That's my level of need of friendship/intimacy here.

What would you do?

MMF

[Zenobia]

That is a difficult one to answer. I have thought about it since yesterday off and on. I think it has to do with being able to give yourself the things you need at this time while you try to repair your marriage. You need to decide if your marriage is important to you, if it is worth saving. It took me many months in therapy before I made this decision. It is a decision that takes a lot of thought. Are you willing to put the effort and feel the pain that it takes to make your marriage work? It could take years of hard work, I am entering year three of learning how to work with my husband on our relationship. It is hard and sometimes it hurts alot. Some days I want to run away and leave it all behind. But I think it will be worth it in the end. If you can't make the commitment to put all you have in your marriage then it isn't fair to your wife or yourself to stay in it.

I would suggest that you start seeing a therapist to help you sort through your feelings. There is a reason you picked you wife to marry. If you don't figure out why it was you will just continue picking the same type of relationship over and over again. Once you figure out what you subconcious it doing then you can start making concious decisions on what your needs and wants are.

I find that the most important thing is honesty with yourself and your wife. I am not saying you need to bare your soul and tell her about your transgressions. I am saying that today if she does something that hurts you, if she says something that belittles you in anyway tell her. Use "I" statements. "When I hear those words I feel like I am not important except to earn a paycheck." "When I see that look on your face I feel like you think I am worthless." These things are very hard to say. I do it about once every 5 things that bother me because I am scared. But each time I say what I feel I become stronger and my husband understands me better. He wasn't aware of some of the things that he does that hurt me. Sometimes he out and out denies that he did anything at all, that I made it up. This upsets me, I usually write a letter to my T to make sure that I am still in reality. I work it all through over and over again. Then I go back and state my feelings again. Like I said it is hard work. It takes committment. Now I will shut up.
Zen<font color=blue>

Deal with the difficult while it is still easy. Solve large problems when they are still small. Preventing large problems by taking small steps is easier the solving them. Therefore, the Tao person anticipates and lives wisely, by small actions accomplishing great things.--From the Tao Te Ching

[kitty]

MMF: I am so sorry for what you are going through. You sound like an extremely sensitive person and you deserve a relationship with someone who can appreciate you. I think Zen has given a lot of good advice. Think back to why you married your wife and try to determine why she is acting the way she is now. If she is angry a lot of the time, that anger must stem from somewhere. Is she insecure? If so, maybe you can try to help her gain confidence and that could help your relationship. I am very lucky to be best friends with my husband. I could not even imagine being in a relationship that did not have closeness. In the meantime, if you do seek a relationship with another woman, try to keep it as just friends so you can really evaluate your marriage and definitely think about seeing a therapist so there is someone you can confide in.

[miss_my_friend]

Thanks, Zen.

In a world of 6 billion why can't we acknowledge that we need people? I know I have to be my own ultimate source of happiness and self-fulfillment. But I also NEED loving relationships with other people.

There's no doubt that for married people that that person is "supposed" to be your spouse. But what if it's not? What if you tried to tell him/her of your unhappiness, that you cannot continue to draw from your well with nothing going into yours, and they really just don't seem to care.

Were it not for my children I would have probably begun divorce proceedings against my wife. I think that is the only thing that might get her attention as to my level of unhappiness, but even then, she might push things towards an irreparable finish. That's the characteristic of a false pride outlook. With no real self-esteem, my wife usually resorts to false pride, and combined with a raging personality, it can be a horrendous combination.

I'd like my marriage to work out. But it has to work out where two people feel loved in the ways that MATTER to them. If my wife needs alot of money and for me to do most thing around the house and with the kids . . . .I'm doing my best to provide that. I need a woman who'll smile at me and talk to me about her day and things other than her next planned purchase. I need a woman who'll reach for my hand occassionally, or stroke my hair. Who'll be the first to say "I love you" every once in awhile. I need to be with a woman who'll desire me sexually, and initiate love making every once in awhile so that we'll make love once or twice a week vs. once every few months or so.

I really feel that I'm doing my best, and nothing is happening in return. Almost like she's knows I won't leave and ceede the children over to her.

So in the meantime there was this woman who loved me . . .and showed me all those things I mentioned. God, I have to believe it THE most natural thing in the world . . . . .to return the love that someone gives to you!!! In my life, it's almost like taking that next breath!

And in my life, so devoid of intimate love . . . . .she WAS my next breath!

And now it's gone.

But why can't her non-sexual love/friendship remain in my life? I feel it'd give me the strength to work on my marriage.

Without it, I'm just so sad and beaten. And now, with each rage episode at home, I've no one to turn to. It's very devastating.

Question about T's. How could I ever find one and tell them EVERYTHING (including the infidelities) and have them NOT consider me scum?

MMF

MMF

I like our clean house and well dressed children, but that's what I need to feel love and to really have my well full enough to love totally in return. . . . .without resentment.

[miss_my_friend]

Thanks Kitty for your warm reply.

My wife is the way she is because of her upbringing. She only knows CONDITIONAL love and therefore only loves conditionally. I might be willing to make an exception to that statement when it comes to our children, because she knows the devastation she suffered growing up and never be worthy of her parent's love.

But she's still impacted by it as evidenced by our relationship. I truly feel that now I'm only as loved as the size of my paycheck.

And yes, if a friendship develops with another woman in the future, I now KNOW it must remain non-sexual. But Kitty, she looked me in the eyes and asked me to kiss her. Later, upon insisting we have intercourse she told me she loved me like no other man. God, I feel like a 17 year old girl lied to on prom night! But I wanted to believe her with every fiber in my body . . . . .obviously, I did believe her. And the fact that we then stopped the sexual part of us, if she could have just remained my friend . . .I swear I wouldn't feel lied to, or worse, used.

But now, I sorta do.

Thanks,

MMF

[Zenobia]

I wish you the best. Only you know what it is that you need. It sounds like you have already given much thought to your situation with your wife and have reconciled your feelings in you mind. Be understanding of your friend, she may not be able to seek outside relationships with out feeling guilty about her husband. Trying to remain friends with you may remind her of her transgressions. If she is trying to keep her marriage sound that is not something she would want to remember. Take care,
Zen<font color=green>

Deal with the difficult while it is still easy. Solve large problems when they are still small. Preventing large problems by taking small steps is easier the solving them. Therefore, the Tao person anticipates and lives wisely, by small actions accomplishing great things.--From the Tao Te Ching

[poseygurl]

Dear MMF,

You have my empathy. I was in a 12-year marriage that ended four years ago. Toward the end, we had become very disconnected. Instead of sticking together and supporting each other, we found support through "emotional affairs," I with a friend from a volunteer group I was with, he with a friend from work. We hadn't planned to have this happen, we just drifted apart, were lonely, and these people filled our needs.

Things had not been going well. I had been diagnosed with major depression. He couldn't deal with it. There were problems with close relatives that also were straining our marriage. Our working hours changed so that we didn't see each other much... I started talking with this male friend. We started confiding in each other about our mutual marital problems. He and his wife were friends with me and my husband. I had a crush on this guy, and I think he for me. We talked a lot and he was very supportive. No doubt my husband felt our closeness, which further alienated us. I thought that if I was open and tried to encourage the four of us doing things together, it would stay as a friendship, and it seemed to. I eventually fought off my feelings and got back to the point where I felt like just a good friend again -- no crush (what a relief!).

Then my husband announced that he didn't love me anymore and wanted a divorce. He insisted that there was no one else. However, he moved in with this woman less than 4 months after he moved out and married her shortly after the divorce was final. When he told me her name, I realized it was someone he spoke of often when he would tell me about work. Now I was on the other side -- in your wife's place. I cannot describe the pain I felt.

Once my husband moved out and we were legally separated (I was devastated), my "friend" started to make sexual advances. It was very tempting. As this was happening, his wife was pregnant with their first child. We kept confiding in each other for awhile, but our friendship eventually ended. It didn't feel right for me to have amorous feelings toward him, nor he for me. Then he and his wife were relocated by his employer. We promised to keep in touch, but he basically dropped me as a friend. All of those hours confiding in each other about our lives, and then he just stopped communicating. We knew everything about each other, I thought. I was very hurt and surmised that our friendship meant nothing to him. His wife and I stayed friends and still keep in touch via email. He (with his wife in the background) called me about 6 months ago just to say hi. I was friendly but his acting on the phone as though we all were still buddies felt false. How could he cut communications for more than a year and then call like nothing had happened? I felt used. I have not heard from him again. That wound is healed over and I have learned another lesson.

MMF, obviously, you are missing THE key ingredient to a good marriage. You have endured this hobbled relationship for seven years. You found a substitute that filled your need for awhile. Those relationships can be exciting as well as comforting but rarely are they permanent, I believe. Why begin the search anew for another intimate emotional relationship outside of your marriage that cannot last? To me, it feels like you are trying to escape but your are on a leash that will stop you short again.

Computer messages can be taken in the wrong way. I am not criticizing you for what has happened because I have been exactly where you are. Loneliness in such a marriage was unbearable for me. I tried to kill myself because of it. Getting emotional support of the sort you and I found is wonderful but temporary at best, and inevitably hurtful and sad. And being the spouse of the person finding their emotional support elsewhere hurts like hell too.

Your friend has her reasons for not communicating with you and cutting off the relationship. Anymore, does it matter why? I am wondering why punish yourself by seeking outside support again when it should be coming from your marriage? What kind of a life is it when you are betrothed to one yet emotionally attached to another you cannot have? Don't you feel torn apart? I did. Looking back, it wasn't worth it.

If you feel that your children are better off as a family with a marriage such as your current one, then I guess that is the way it will have to be. But I think you should invest your energy in forging a relationship that will be more than a band-aid. I would try to repair the marriage or get out of it.

Absolutely seek a therapist because you need help sorting out all of your thoughts and feelings. It can be overwhelming. Maybe consider a male therapist just to avoid the kinds of transferences you will have with a female (my T is male; I was infatuated with him for a couple of years... Oh, the hours I wasted obsessively daydreaming and wishing that he would fall in love with me). Or maybe feeling those transferences with a female T would be helpful. I'm no expert.

If your wife is not willing to work with you on this, you should at least do this for yourself so that you can ease this tortured existence and open a new and happier path for yourself in this life.

Wishing you strength and peace.

[miss_my_friend]

Dear Poseygurl,

Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate that you know where I am.

I'm thinking that I probably shouldn't ask for help on these boards because my replies generally do seem to be of the same vein . . .that is "work on your marriage. Invest your efforts with your wife!'

Wise words, but without writing a book, all I can tell everyone is that I HAVE DONE THAT for many years. We've gone to counseling and just when the therapist begins to focus on my wife's up-bringing she leaves . . .claiming that she's being picked on. This has happened 3 times!

My wife and I actually do talk and she knows my unhappiness, but rather than ever looking inside herself she blames me for my own unhappiness claiming she's be the most wonderful partner any man could ever want IF I just alleviated her daily stress with some more money . . .maybe to the tune of an additional $50,000 to $100,000 a year on top of what I earn now! THEN, she'd be this stress free woman who could smile and be affectionate and tak of other thing srather than the next purchase, and yes, be more sexually intimate with me.

Of course I know that her plan would never work.

See, Posey, there was something lovable in both of you that you guys chose to share with another person, rather than with each other. That says something to me. There another sideline to my story that I don't have time for right now, but suffice to say that my wife has NO friends and cannot keep any new ones she makes. Her zero self-esteem and false pride ruin EVERY relationship she gets into, and had a large part in the ending of ANY relationship I could have had with this other woman (that is, she claimed she might have been willing to stay in a couple friendship with us IF the basis of the friendship became her and my WIFE! And my wife couldn't maintain that)

Many of you seem to be pointing to ending my marriage, and if there is no improvement in the next 16 years, I'll do that. But my children must be grown first.

We can talk about the pro's and con's of divorce on another post, but quickly I'll say "you're damned if you do, damned if you don't" and by staying I see my wonderful children EVERY night. That's better than the alternative . . . .as much as I ache for a loving relationship with a woman who can love me back.

Thanks

MMF

[kitty]

MMF: I am so sorry for all the pain you are feeling. I know you think it is best for your kids if you stay with your wife until they are grown, but that is not always the case. You are miserable right now and your kids will definitely sense that. I think everyone on this board is just trying to help and it seems that your 2 best options are to either try to work it out with your wife or get divorced. I think you are going to choose the 3rd option which is to stay together. I guess the real question is whether this is truly best for your kids and your relationship with your kids. I know you are hesitant to seek therapy, but this may really help you figure things out. Your T will not be judging you, but you may be judging yourself. Although I don't condone having an affair, having one certainly does not make you a bad person at all. It is not as though you are a womanizer and had multiple affairs. I think anyone would understand why you did what you did and what you have been through and are going through. Please think about seeing someone as it could really help you get through this whatever your decision is. Good luck.

[miss_my_friend]

Kitty,

Let me quickly state my thoughts on divorce. Maybe my kids can sense my unhappiness . . . I don't know. I do my best to model for them what a parent and spouse should act like. They deserve this.

Before things really got bad in my marriage I sought out a men's group. It turned out to be a divorce support group, although they didn't call it that. I was the only one in our group of ten that wasn't divorced. I left after each session shaken by the horrific stories of what the divorces did to their children. From the children clinging to their legs as they dropped their children back off at mom's after their "weekend" to the utter heartbreak of slowly watching their ex poison their children against them. One member I never met did kill himself over this heart-break.

While I am not happy, we are not destroying our children emotionally on a daily basis. As now the pretty much sole source of my emotional happiness, I feel my kids are basking in alot of "daddy love". In fact, since my wife claims that the stress of child rearing is one of the main reasons she's so angry and non-affectionate and non-sexual, I routinely take my kids swimming or for ice cream or to the library or to the movies so as to give my wife alot of alone time - which she spends shopping or looking at the next wallpaper pattern or tile or paint for the next "big project".

Emotionally devastating my children so I can be available to maybe form a loving relationship with a woman someday is not a "good" deal. They are innocent. They deserve their dad everyday.

My affair was wrong and my friend and I ended the sexual part. Since then, a nice lunch with her made me a super happy guy and that flowed through the rest of my day and evening at home. It helped with the occasional rage and I was even better at smiling and pretending to show interest as my wife showed me yet another shade of blue for the dining room that we painted just last year. Why is that so bad? With or without that lunch, the rage was still gonna come, and I was still gonna be showed another set of color swatches. The lunch, the friendship, gave me something to stand on, and to get through the day on.

I pray everyday that my wife realizes that her approach to life and love will only lead to devastation. And that she seeks out the help to allow her to one day become my partner again. At this moment in time, I'm not hopeful. But who knows.

The idea of having a good, good friend around while she (and of course, I) perhaps sorts through this pain (and that'll probably be an UGLY process - hence, her resistence up till now) just seems like a real good idea. I would have liked it to be this person.

If I can say one other thing to Poseygurl, I think your situation and mine have many similarities, but some key differences.

While you and your husband had some emotional problems, you both were seeking comfort in another person. And I mourn that for some communications you guys might have been able to have found that in each other.

If your husband had asked you what you needed in order to feel the love you needed to be loving back to him . . . . .would you have responded "more money"? I can tell by reading your post, that you would not.

See that's one difference. Another is that I have asked - where as maybe your husband never did. She knows of my unhappiness and I asked about how I was failing her as a husband and father for her to withdraw from our marriage so emotionally? I asked her what could I do. She told me to make more money.

(Just so we all know . . .I actually can acknowledge her need for financial support . . . .within reason. I earn around $100,000 a year. That SHOULD be enough!)

Did your husband ask you? Did you ask your husband?

I want my marriage to improve and from my wife to be my emotional support. Doesn't seem like she wants to do that right now. I have very young children. I will not leave.

In the meantime, could a loving friendship help me through the next 16 years? I thought it could. What do you guys think?

MMF

[poseygurl]

MMF,

Please don't leave. We aren't necessarily telling you to go work on your marriage, it's just Door No. 3 that is problematic here...

I have bunch of thoughts flying around in my head at the moment and not enough time to flesh them out right now. Maybe later today or tomorrow.

In the meantime, tell me: Do you love your wife?

[miss_my_friend]

Poseygurl,

I wasn't planning on leaving. I truly have a need to talk this out with intelligent people who've maybe gone through stuff like this before. This forum is helping me do that and I really do cherish all of your (everyone's) input. And no one has told me I'm scum . . . .yet! :-)

I'm very sorry for the pain your divorce has put you through. Let me ask you something . . . .what would you have done if your husband sat you down, held your hand, and told (in a gentle, non-accusatory tone) you why he was hurting in the marriage. Would you have gotten incredibly defensive and looked to turn the tables/conversation on him to let him know how he was failing you. Or would you have listened and looked inside yourself to see what you could truly try to change?

I believe the answer to that question will give you the prediction as to whether a couple will divorce 99% of the time.

Now to answer your question . . . .yes, I do love my wife and this is why things are so hard. It's because of that love I can see a flicker of light just over the horizon for us. I know it's the light of truly fulfilling love between a husband and wife. I thought we were getting there, now it just seems like constant horizon, and I fear we won't get there unless two people try. One person won't get the job done.

That's the nature of love, isn't it? To be real, it MUST involve two people, huh?

MMF

[poseygurl]

MMF,

Random thoughts:

So I am confused. Are you saying that after you told your wife what you needed in your marriage, she retorted with a rant on how you were failing her? Does that mean that there is a 99% chance that divorce is imminent?

You love her, but she can only give conditional love? It doesn't seem that you can live with that (don't know how anyone could, really), so do you think you can continue to live with it or do you think she can change?

This is a very large and complicated thing we're talking about here, of course. It isn't about money. You know that, don't you? It isn't about having enough help around the house so that there's time for her to be rested and beautiful and loving for you. This is all about control. She is trying to control you by putting all time and energy into things such as the children, redecorating and shopping. This also is an escape. You are not getting what you need from her, so you also have emotionally escaped into another realm. This also gives you a sense of control. There are all sorts of other ways with which you two are trying to control each other that you have not mentioned or may not see. Until that is addressed, you will be at a stalemate. There is a book called "Crazy Time" that addresses all of this. I'll have to look up the author's name. Edelman, I think her name is. Excellent book. I highly recommend it. It opened my eyes to what had really happened in my marriage.

Ok, back to Door No. 3:

You are looking for emotional support so that you can endure this dysfunctional relationship perhaps for 16 more years or until your wife comes to her senses. I don't mean to sound harsh, but isn't this what it boils down to? Finding another woman to listen to you (or even finding a male friend in whom to confide) may lighten the burden somewhat. If you choose a woman, then you have the whole sex issue eventually facing you again. A male friend would be safer, but I know that doesn't feel quite the same. I have found that confiding in my female friends a better alternative for me because I don't need to add more heartache to my situation.

A fine example I have right now: I was in a yearlong relationship with a man. He just ended it. We both have our share of divorce and relationship baggage that we tried to help each other with. I think we did give each other some good support, but now the relationship is over because he has decided he wants a longterm serious relationship and I don't fit his idea of a person who could be that. Do you see what I am trying to say? Ok, yea I got some good support, advice, and physical intimacy for a year. I also sustained additional damage, emotion-wise. Now back to Square One. I am hurting, but I will get over it. Was it worth it? I'm not sure. I need more time and to step back. And I don't even have this whole marital issue roiling in the background as you do. What incredible stress!!! Who needs it!? (My opinion, of course; maybe you can stand it.) In the meantime, my housemate (female), good friends, and my therapist are helping me keep focused.

Again, I would suggest finding a really good therapist in which to confide. They are trained to help people deal with situations such as yours. Finding a "civilian," so to speak, man or woman, can help provide support in between therapist discussions. And therapist discussions can provide support in between friendships/relationships. (BTW, that last sentence does not mean I am condoning another relationship such as your last one or the one that you are wishing for because I don't think it's emotionally healthy.)

I guess my bottom line at the moment is: you need a support system that includes more people than what you had because what you had with this one woman was intensely supportive and emotionally fulfilling while it lasted, but the failure of this support system has also hurt you much more deeply than if you had had a larger network.

Your thoughts?

[poseygurl]

MMF,

OK, here's the last thing and then I have to go do a huge amount of work as I am very behind...

I really really hate it when people tell me to read this book or that because it will solve my problems. But this book is very good. It's about surviving divorce, but its vignettes on various relationships are amazingly good. You will find yourself and your wife in at least one of them. I was amazed when I read it:

Crazy Time: Surviving divorce and Building a New Life. Maybe it will help you avoide divorce.

Best regards,
Posey

[poseygurl]

Aggghhh! Haste makes waste. Abigail Trafford is the author.

[miss_my_friend]

Poseygurl,

Thanks so much for helping me with your thoughtful comments and experiences!

You've got so much in your replies that I'm just going to address them in general at first, ok?

Yes, that is my plan right now; that I will remain in my marriage for another 16 years. My youngest will be 18 then. During that time I will make every attempt to give my wife every opportunity to get the help she needs in order to return to the marriage as a loving partner. She'll be aware, as she is now, of my unhappiness, so that divorce papers will not be super suprising to her when they arrive. And even after their arrival, if she truly decides to work on the marriage at that point there will be hope. Knowing her personality she'll probably react with rage and blame as in "How dare he! He's unhappy with me!?!? How dare he! I'll show him!"

Basically, regarding my wife and her family, they're of the opinion that the remaining 6 billion of us on this planet should really be appreciative that they even bother with us. I've learned that that's a trademark of a person with ZERO self-esteem, and knowing my in-laws, that's definitely a "gift" they gave all their children.

My plan seems to shock people, but acknowledging that I'm not going to become a "week-end" dad to my kids, what choice do I have? For two years prior to beginning my physical affair with my best friend, I tried this "Marriage Builder's" approach to my unhappiness that I found in a book store that said, basically, "Look, if you both resent each other because of un-met needs, your resentment will destroy your marriage UNLESS one of you is willing to go to the other and say, "I'm sorry. It's evident I'm not meeting your needs. Please look inside your heart and tell me what I have to change so I can start doing that.""

Whether it's spoken or not, the goal is that once that spouse starts having their needs met, they'll begin, out of love of seeing you make the effort, to meet yours.

My wife said I had to give her more money and that I had to give her lots of "free" time away from chores and kids. (Of course, these wants igore the obvious conflict that men making the MOST money also tend to spend the MOST time away from home, but let's ignore that for now) Knowing my needs of affection and (sorry, but I'm a man!) physical intimacy (read: sex) she's always verbalized that that less stress lifestyle would allow her to be the loving (in ALL ways) type of wife I desired.

Ok, so I have a very good job for my area. And even work two other part time jobs that pay very well and really don't require alot of time away. My salary level is around $100,000. I get my kids up and ready for school and cook breakfast each day so she can sleep in. I get their lunches ready. I usually start a crock-pot dinner so she won't have to cook. I do homework and give baths at night. Then read bedtime stories and say prayers. On weekends I get up with the early riser kids so my wife can sleep in.

I tell you this for a few reasons . . . .one, to show I'm meeting the needs she named . . . two, to further demonstrate that my wife enjoys a very nice life (certainly not one to be angry/depressed over) and three, to also show my involvment in my children's lives . . . . .which I LOVE and relish doing and WON'T relegate to weekends.

Over these two years my wife has not reciprocated in trying to meet my needs. She's just as angry as ever (read:non-affectionate) so of course, our physical intimacy is rare. It doesn't require super-intelligence to realize that IT'S NOT ME! It's her and her demons from the past. Ones she refuses to deal with. It's just easier to complain to your husband that you don't have enough money. Money is her drug of choice. While it's not injected or drunk, you take it to a mall and there all your demons go away . . . . .for a little while.

Why is it so bad for a person dealing with this at home to seek solace with understanding people? And friendships usually develop from there. (Heck, Poseygurl, I'm kinda doing that with you right now!)

You (and everyone) are absolutely right in that to allow those friendships to turn sexual is an incredible breech of trust and I've committed a horrible wrong against God and my wife. Personally I feel that would not have happened had my friend not pushed for it. I did not. But I did go willingly along, and every attempt in the early stages to stops were counter-acted by her guarantees of love for me. Her offers of affection and love became my drug of choice for about six months.

And it just seemed logical that with the emotions behind the love-making, that when the love-making stopped, those emotions would allow for a very strong friendship to continue. That's what I wanted and what we had for about a year, when , without warning, she stopped that too.

Her actions, seemingly so in contrast to words we said over the last two years, have wrecked my world, largely because of that contrast. As you referred to in an earlier post about your male friend, how could she (he in your case) act as if none of this had happened? How could she know she said those words of tenderness, love and friendship and now yank them away without warning? It just doesn't seem like it should be possible from anyone with a soul, other than the soul of a Nazi! And she wasn't a Nazi.

It just makes my head spin.

Pain makes it hard to learn lessons, but I'm slowly picking up on some. 1 - My friends should be male (as shallow as we are as a gender makes this tough, though!)

2 -I must be willingly to end any friendship with a woman the instant it looks like it could become sexual (easier said then done . . . .and in some regrads this may mean the friendship SHOULD NEVER BEGIN!)

Being out of high school for some time now, I can only be intimate with a woman I love, and that requires ALOT of emotion on my part. To have the object of that emotion hurt you is the most painful thing in the world . . . .I realize that with my wife and now with my friend.

I'll look for that book.

Thanks,

MMF

[penna]

I have only one question: Is a friend who encourages you to engage in behavior that is potentially damaging to your well-being in any way (physical, emotional, or psychological) *really* a friend at all?

No offense MMF, but this "friend" of yours sounds an awful lot like a lot of the "friends" i had years ago who would beg me to go clubbing with them even though they knew I had a drinking problem and was trying to quit. This woman was *very* aware of your vulnerability and she took advantage of that. Obviously, you played an integral role in what happened once her offer was made, but I would urge you to think about why you would want to maintain a friendship with someone who clearly did not have your best interests at heart.

[poseygurl]

MMF,

A few thoughts/observations re your comments:

It occurs to me that a lot can happen in 16 years. Your projections re' her reactions 16 years from now (assuming you are still married and serve her with papers) may be different by then. As an outsider, your description sounds to me like a vengeful fantasy/daydream... From this and your previous posts, it is pretty apparent that you have a lot of anger within you. Can you bear to be this angry for the next 16 years? Have you thought about how much energy it takes from you to keep this anger going? How much space it takes up in your head? If you can work on your own anger, you may find more peace over time and ability to endure her rages. It also may have an effect on her rages. Friendships with people who support you can help on this, but you might want to consider other avenues as well...therapy, meditation, horseback riding lessons, tai chi, therapy, zen studies, a painting class, therapy... Prolonged anger also causes myriad health problems. Anger turned inward can cause depression.

Speaking of depression, it sounds as though you certainly try to pitch in and help your wife around the house and with the kids. However, outside circumstances being as good as they are for her (in your judgment) are not necessarily proven safeguards against depression. Depression comes for lots of reasons, and for none at all. I guess I am trying to say that you giving her what you think that she wants and what you say she says that she wants does not give you permission now or ever to say that she has no reason to be depressed.

I know she is hurting you. I can feel the anger you are feeling. I don't know your situation because I'm only hearing one side and it is not my place here to judge or to try to solve your dilemma. However, if there is no other side to this story, then I feel sorry for your wife. She must have some real torments within her is she is having such emotional turmoil and feeling so much misery. I hope she can get help.

Your statement(s) about meeting the demands your wife has made strikes me as a little cold -- as though you two have some contract written in the air somewhere. Intimate relationships can't work or survive; warmth, intimacy and trust cannot flourish or even germinate in such an acidic environment. (Sorry for the analogies such as they are. I'm in the middle of some biology studies and have plant reproduction on the brain at the moment.) Maybe someday your anger toward her will fade or recede and you can help her find the assistance she obviously needs. I know you have tried before. If you keep trying, maybe the coming 16 years will be different.

Peace.
Posey

[miss_my_friend]

Penna and Poseygurl,

Thanks. Penna . . .I've never been good at seeing beyond a person's action for an ulterior ( and perhaps sinister) motive. Especially when the actions are the most tender and loving that I've ever experienced. I couldn't possibly fathom (still can't) that I was being used . . .or worse . . . .that this person was trying to hurt me. For the 5 -10 minutes per day that I can think clearly on this, some ideas, like that I was being used, or she was just trying to see if her "seductive" powers were still intact . . .do come to mind. But they're too horrible to consider for very long, so I drop them.

Were she to have remained my friend (call, email, go to lunch every once and awhile) these thoughts would NEVER cross my mind. Why were those activities so horrible to continue? I may never know, if she doesn't talk to me. But for about a year after the physical stuff stopped . . .we did those and, unless I'm a total idiot, they really seemed to add joy to BOTH of our lives. This is why the sudden end hurts SO bad.

Naive, huh?

Posey,

I realized I as soon as I wrote that line about depression that I was wrong, at least based upon all my studies about that disease.

It is a disease that many times, people who are suffering from it will look to a person or external cause to explain what's going on inside of them, and that's what my wife does.

I realize better than I've let on, that my earnings or assistance around the house or with kids is NOT the cause of her depression anymore than it could be the CURE for it. This is something that she must work on with a doctor and therapist. The fact that she has not chosen to do that, in spite of my pleas and putting all of my mental health benefits at her disposal tells me she finds our current lifestyle just "easier" while, of course you know, I do not.

Last time I put my mental health provider book in front of her, she laughed and said "When do I have time to go to therapy . . .with three kids!" I told her whenever and where-ever she chose to go I would take the time off and watch the kids while she went. . . .that her health was one of the most important things in my/our lives, and as we wouldn't ignore a cancer. . . .we shouldn't ignore this either.

I've been doing this for two years now. And I'll continue to do this. But an adult must take responsibility for his/her health.

Now, your comment on anger. Yes, I guess I'm angry. I see this as a natural reaction to inequity, especially an inequity that seems to last a long time. I would say, referring to my last post, that it's the inequity of doing your utmost to meet your spouse's needs while yours go unmet and largely un-acknowledged as even being legitimate!!! I think that that's a situation that can last for several years without serious reprecussions. Beyond that, damage starts to set in, one sign of which is anger.

I'm doing my best to manage it, but I feel its a very natural by-product to the life I lead . . . .and I'm only human.

[poseygurl]

MMF,

Of course you're human. Sorry, I wasn't blaming you for being angry. I was just thinking that the anger is a drain on you. No doubt it's desirable to control it. I was just wondering whether it wouldn't be better for your own mental health if there were a way to lessen its severity or decrease the amount of it. That's hard to do, I know.

[penna]

MMF--I wasn't meaning to imply that your friend consciously had an ulterior motive, but her actions were at least a little selfish. The intimacy you shared obviously met a need for her too. I merely meant to suggest that you might want to think about exactly how you define friendship--what do you *expect* from a friend? What would you consider "crossing the line" in a friendship? How do you want to handle that if or when it might occur? These ideas do not just apply to friendships with members of the opposite sex.

[rainstouch]

zenobia, you are a light. thus guides us. through our pain and darkness. shine. you are a light. rainstouch