Shouldn't have read that email

First of all, I don't condone snooping around on other's computers unless there is a real suspicion of serious trouble, like infidelity, crime, etc.

Well, I had to go and break my own rule...a subject line in my wife's email box caught my eye and I gave in to my curiosity.

Turned out my wife had been griping to a mutual friend (wondering if "friend" belongs in quotes now) about our home problems, and how she was not getting any help from me on housework, kids, etc.

That is certainly a fair thing to gripe about. Until you consider my bipolar, my inflammatory bowel disease, my bum thyroid, AND the fact that I make well over 95% of the money, and handle all the finances. Honestly, my psychiatrist thinks it is amazing that I function at the level I do, given how bad my depressive times have been and how many meds I am on.

The "friend" does not know about these medical issues, which is fine with me (she is often running down other people and divulging private info, so I do not want her knowing mine). But, without any real knowledge of the situation, she proceeded to bash me and portray me as the kind of stereotypical knuckle-dragger who sits around drinking beer instead of helping.

And my wife didn't really defend me. She said I had a weak "aptitude" for these things and "low energy," and that she believed me "about 90%" that I really did not feel well.

Nice. So she thinks I'm lying about my condition the other 10% of the time.

Truth is, I feel AWFUL outside of work (and often at work, too). My docs have been working with me to get the meds to where I am not so godawful tired all the time. But it is incredibly frustrating! There is so much I want to do, and my mind and body do not want to go there. But I am trying! Having my wife and this "friend" imply otherwise is really hurtful.

To be fair, my wife has some depression (not nearly as bad as what I'm dealing with, based on what I hear from her pdoc and therapist), and I admit that I am definitely NOT Mr. Sunshine around the house a lot of times. But wouldn't you think she'd be more understanding, given her own familiarity with the illness?

Serves me right for looking at things that don't belong to me. But man. Sometimes people just really disappoint me.

Been mad about this all day. I don't think it would be fair for me to confront her about what was a private conversation (especially when they could have been talking about much worse things). I need to let it go.

I'm sorry in advance but it sounds like you might act a little selfish in the relationship. You are making your depression a competition. Does it really matter who is MORE depressed than the other? Just because you are on more meds doesn't mean that she doesn't need a little help and support also. Even if you can't physically bring yourself to do the dishes or laundry, you could let her know that she is appreciated.

I think that you need to look at your priorities. My guess is that she gives you clues that she needs some help but either you don't hear them or don't know how to fix them. How often do you just hug her and tell her "I really appreciate everything you do for me". And making the money vs. cleaning the house...neither of those is more important that the others. And you shouldn't expect your wife to act a certain way just because of your money.

I think that you need to put yourself in her shoes. You are complaining that she isn't being supportive enough but have you ever thought about how it feels to be clam and collected all the time around someone with severe depression? You are not the only one feeling the effects here. Try to think of what SHE is going through.

Saluki, I appreciate your comments. But it's interesting how quickly you've gone to her defense.

I should look at my priorities? Hmm. Frankly, I think not going into foreclosure is a priority. Eating is a priority. Not getting so sick I have to go to the hospital is a priority. These are realities right now.

If anything is selfish, it's complaining about not getting enough words of appreciation when we don't have enough money to pay the bills. Or watching TV instead of cleaning the house. Or playing on Facebook when I'm out going to yet another job interview, hoping to get enough of a raise to get us back in the black. Or sending the kids to school in dirty, smelly clothes instead of running a load of wash. Because this is the stuff that's going on.

I do think of her feelings. I think about them all the time. I think about how bad she and the kids would be hurting if we went completely broke. I think about how bad it would be for them if I quit religiously taking all these meds and going to all these psychiatrist and therapist visits and just fell apart. I think about how much I'd like to get her a housekeeper and a nanny--or just have the energy to do those tasks for her more often.

Believe me, it upsets me that she is unhappy. But it also upsets me that she doesn't show any concern for my feelings, doesn't express any appreciation for me, doesn't have my back on things like whether we'll still have a house next month.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to ambush you. I made it sound like I was just miffed about an email...the situation is a lot deeper and uglier than that. I really do appreciate your comments!

Perhaps your wife just needs to vent. Just like you are venting now.

I would not worry about an email but would consider how the relationship is going at home. That's me but you do what you think is best.

Okay, private email. They are a lot like diaries. To the owner it is a growth tool, to anyone else it is a poisonous snake ready to strike. Now hopefully you have learned this lesson. And since you stated that things are rough - both of you have mentioned a lot of resentment, perhaps marrage counsiling would be in order. Ask her to dump her guy friend and ask her to help your marriage. keep posting and good luck to both of you.

If my husband knew all of the negative things I’ve said about him over the years, I’m sure he’d be crushed. When you’re angry, frustrated, and tired you vent things you really don’t mean. It’s not nice, but it’s human. In my opinion it would be very cruel to say these things to my husband. The person I vent to knows my husband and understands my comments are coming from a place of frustration and takes them with a grain of salt. In fact she usually replies “go ahead, get rid of him, I’ll snatch him up in a second.”

But I submit to you that you’ve belittled her illness here just as much as she has yours. I deal with your issues (although I have no idea what the % of the household income you make has to do with the price of tea in China). I KNOW you are not in control of your energy levels. I KNOW what it feels like to be passed out, naked on the bathroom floor because your bowels have decided that today is going to be hell, tomorrow doesn’t look much better, and I don’t know if I have the strength to deal with it another second.

My husband suffered a severe back injury at work many years ago. I KNOW he’s not faking, I KNOW he lives in pain every single second of every single day of his life. I can see the injury on his MRI’s, when it flares up, he wakes me up crying in his sleep and I’M the one that insists he go back to his doctor. We know that he’ll have to have more surgeries in the future.

Here’s the thing… does this apply to you? Knowing all of this, and I am intimately familiar with the physical requirements of his job, I KNOW that he will push THROUGH that pain to complete something at work, just so it’s done properly. He has several qualified individuals that work for him, but his pride will not allow him to “ask them to do anything he won’t do himself” even though his peers and predecessors did/do not do this physical part of the job. Are we, his family, not entitled to a fraction of that dedication? My husband sometimes views the things that need doing around the house as things that can be done “when I’m feeling better”. What happens if/when better never comes? The laundry still needs to be done, dishes washed, meals prepared, shopping done, kids need to be bathed, played with, help with homework, etc.

I fully understand that providing for the material needs of your family is important. Aren’t the emotional and household needs are equally important?

We’ve compromised in this way; I accept that he’s never going to do as much as I want him to do, the way I want him to do it (I also have OCD). He agrees to put in 4 solid hours a week doing things I need help with. In the beginning I was quite the task master. I had a stop-watch and I deducted the “breaks”. Now the time varies. There are tasks he’s found that he doesn’t mind doing that I absolutely detest. I’m willing to trade laundry, and cleaning the bathroom for him doing the shopping and putting away the groceries.

Yeah, I am OK with her venting. My problem is that it's with a mutual friend. Now this person has heard all these bad things about me--and she's a gossiper. And that friend knows more mutual friends. Bleah.

But I totally think you are right, the problem is not one little email, the problem is the overall relationship.

I had already learned my lesson, NF. And I went and did something dumb anyway.

If she read my diaries, she'd be pretty ticked off!! She has a right to her private communications.

I should clarify about the friend, it's a girl friend, not a guy friend. I'd be a lot more upset if it was a guy friend, I admit. But yes, marriage counseling is probably a good idea, as evidenced by my long reply to Saluki...

Yeah, venting is personal, it should be private, and my wife would be very upset if she heard some of the things I have said about her (but to people she does NOT know, like my therapist; I don't badmouth her around mutual friends).

Although I consider myself a decent employee, I am much more concerned and dedicated to my family than my workplace. I care about work so much only because I am worried about running out of money, which is a real issue with us right now.

My wife very definitely puts off household things "until she feels better." Unfortunately, she very, very rarely "feels better." I have tried so hard to be supportive, to be empathetic, to help her with whatever psychiatrist/therapist she wants to see, to pay for whatever meds she wants to take, etc. I'm so frustrated and it is showing here.

"What happens if/when better never comes?" Exactly! That is what I want to ask my wife. Our house is a wreck. If I start cleaning, I'm going to be doing it myself; I know from experience.

If I deducted all the "breaks" from what work my wife does, I doubt we'd have an hour a day that she spent on household chores as opposed to watching TV, playing on the Internet, etc. I'm serious, and I'm attempting to be fair about it. I'm trying to give her credit for what she does.

She does spend time with the kids, and I appreciate that, but they're always filthy, just like the house is. I would pour so much more into their care if I had it in me. I'm working on that, excercising more, eating better, trying to build up some reserves while my wife is sitting around. After years I just can't stay in denial about her ability to change. Somehow there's going to have to be more in me, illnesses or not.

You are right, it probably sound like I am belittling her illness. I submit that she belittles mine, constantly. I run so hard bringing home money for the standard of living she wants. That's not enough. I try to put in some time helping around the house; it doesn't amount to much, but I do what I can. That's not enough. I try to work hard on our finances and get us back on track. It isn't enough. I try to spend time with the kids. It's never enough. All this while she's plopped in front of the TV and I don't have time to watch one show.

I don't put in long hours at the office or play hero there. Forty totally exhausts me. Making the requirement at work is all I've got, for now anyway. I wish I could scale it back and spend more time/energy here, especially for the kids, but we'd go broke. My medical conditions are costly, hers are costly, kid bills are costly.

When I complain about % of income, I am really trying to complain about % of effort. It's lopsided. I need her, the kids need her. I don't care about how much $$$ she brings in. I care about how much she does for the family. I try hard to tell myself it is balanced. But I can't keep lying to myself about this.

If she put in one half of the effort that your husband does around the house, we'd be in much better shape.

Maybe her pdoc has her underdiagnosed. I don't know. Maybe it'd be easier to tell if she went to all the appointments and didn't have so many pdoc and therapist no-shows, all at $70 to $90 a pop. I'd offer to drive her myself but my supervisor frowns on that kind of thing.

Gotta stop or I'm gonna be late for work.

So, what is the plan? Act like you don't know? Confront her? Maybe a little passive-aggressive? What would be the best result for you? For both of you?

Hi Slothrop

I can understand where you're coming from. I suffer from severe depression because I'm homebound and permanently/terminally disabled due to systemic amyloidosis. On a good day, I can fold towels or wash dishes - but I may place the towels in the cupboard and dishes in the closet. I can't work, and I suck at being a wife.

For as long as I've known my husband, he's worked his butt off. I know because I met him at work. He also helped me care for my ailing parents (dad-cancer/mom amyloidosis - both now deceased). He also adopted my son from my first marriage and raised him as if he were his own precious child - gave his heart and soul to our son.

When I was diagnosed with amyloidosis and told I only had a few years left of eyesight, he wrapped his arms around me and said "I'll be your eyes."

Not only does he bring home the bacon, he has to do all the shopping, housework, pay all the bills AND be my caregiver. To make matters worse, he has spurs on all of his vertebra (bad back), his blood pressure and cholesterol are at dangerously high levels, and he's losing his vision too.

He doesn't get much work these days because people only see him as a "dirty Mexican" or assume he's some sort of "terrorist" or "illegal alien." His boss and the women at work make fun of his clothing. One day he was rushing off to work and spilled some coffee on his shirt. They said to him "Nice shirt - did your wife pick that one out for you?" BAM - got us both with that one.

Last Sunday we had a leaky drain in our bathroom sink. We only have one bathroom. While he was trying to fix the pipe, the sink fell off the wall and crashed down onto him. Considering the condition of the wall, it didn't look possible to get it back up again. He didn't have much time because our laundry pipes are broken too. He had to take all our clothing to the laundromat, but only one machine was working - same with the other laundromat clear across town. He had to drive back and forth to both in order to get it done in time.

He managed to get the bathroom sink back up on the wall - fixed the leaky pipe too. I don't even want to know how he got the sink back up, but I noticed pieces of my missing rubber kitchen gloves clamped to the drain.

It destroys me to see my house in this condition, but there's NO WAY I'd blame my husband for our impoverished state. Unfortunately, everyone else blames him. They say things like "Why can't he get a better job?" and "Why is their home such a dump?"

My sister in Texas tried to defend us one day by saying "Leave her alone - she likes being poor." Give me a BREAK - who the hell LIKES being poor and living in a rundown shack?

My husband has access to all my emails and I have access to his but it's not a big deal. He knows I'm snarky, but he also knows I would never degrade my husband to friends OR strangers.

With my depression, I feel better when he makes me feel like a woman. With him, he feels better when I reassure him he's a man - MY man.

You and your wife are in this together. I hope she realizes insulting your "manhood" won't do anything to make her feel like a princess. Unfortunately, too many women have been raised to believe that Cinderella was a real person - she's just a fantasy. They seem to forget their Prince would like to live "happily ever after" too.

Good luck.

Thanks, Kathy. I'm sorry for the tough times you've had. Your husband sounds like a saint, much more so than me... :-) And you are not to blame for your health problems, we do what we can with what we've got. That, and the treatment you have endured from other people, put my situation in perspective.

I would probably show less snark toward my wife if I understood the problem. She can't explain it to me. Nothing I have heard from her caregivers explains it. I have depression, but whatever is bothering her seems like more than that. If she doesn't love me, if she were seeing someone, if she wanted a divorce, I wish she would just come out with it. Above all, the situation now hurts the kids, and that's not right. It sounds like you have a good strong relationship. We did once, I want to get back to that, I know I need to keep listening and working if it is going to happen.

Good question Byzantine, not sure what to do next, I'm open to suggestions...my emotion this morning is not so much hurt feelings, as an anxiety that people I thought I could trust will take sides with one of us or the other, and I would rather not drag them into it...whatever is going on here is better for a reputable marriage counselor, perhaps, than mutual friends and relations entering the fray....one broken relationship shouldn't break more. Hard to find $$$ for counseling, but I maybe I need to face up to it...probably have some unused stuff I could sell! :-)

As hard as it is to realize, she's probably vented to friends for a long time. Its really unfortunate that you had to read that email. I know it hurts to know she's "talking" about you behind your back, but had you not read it, you wouldn't be so upset right now.

I can see that your situation is pretty bad. I wonder how much you two talk to each other about these problems? I'm the one in my family that has all the MI problems, and my husband currently is the only one working. I feel intensely guilty about that all of the time. I feel like I put incredible pressure on him because he has to figure out how to pay all the bills because I'm too weak and too freaked out to work. I have a lot of bad feelings about the situation. I do my best around the house and its pretty much always clean (not spotless) but clean and nice smelling, but I am very obsessive about arranging things, so I guess this ends up being a plus in the house department. Same goes for our son, he's well taken care of, and he's clean. But some days the most I can do with him is chat a little (he's 9), help with homework, and then I have to remove myself (mostly zone out reading a book or something) because I am not doing well. He gets all of the attention he needs, but sometimes I know he would like more, but I am in too bad of a place emotionally to really do much more for him. All this being said, me and my husband talk about everything. All of the things I've said here (or really anything I've ever said about myself or life here on PC I've told him in real life). He adamantly swears that he's happy with being the money provider and doesn't mind at all that I'm at home. He's never, ever complained about how I do or do not handle the things in the house, and sometimes I just don't do it right, I know. I know that he feels financial pressure, because a few times I have "found out" about some financial problem we are having and we always talk about it. (He, very kindly, takes care of all financial things, including paying all the bills because I have issues with doing this competently.) But he says that he's ok taking the financial stuff because I do so much other stuff (I don't know what he means half the time) but when I ask, he has these huge lists of things I do that it just never occurred to me that anyone would even notice "all the little things" that I do. Anyway, what I am saying is that our situation is "set up" similarly to yours, but we communicate A LOT. And I think that is key. Of course, symptoms of my illness are that I never feel good enough or worthy enough, but he understands that and just supports me the best he can. Ag, I guess what I am saying is that maybe you guys need to get to a place where you are communicating more, are more aware of each other's needs and what the other is doing for the family. Maybe that would help with both of your perspectives?

I'm sorry if I offended you earlier. It did sound like you were belittling her problems but you didn't initially say all the other stuff going on. Everyone needs to vent. I vent to my best friend who is also friends with my bf. He is aware that she knows EVERYTHING about our relationship and that she is the one I go to when things are going on. And I know the friend he vents to. It doesn't make it awkward because everyone goes through times like that.

Are you in love with her still? Do you think she is still in love with you? In times like this, your partner should be the one you go to, not the one who is adding stress in your life. If these problems are going to happen no matter what then I think you guys need to work on your relationship. It sounds like these money troubles and depression are kind of inevitable. And there really isn't anything you can do about the economy, not finding a better paying job etc... Those things are reality for almost everyone right now. So I think the more important thing would be to focus on how you can be more supportive of each other and help each other through these times. Because when the economy turns around, jobs are better and things seem more at rest, what's going to matter is how you supported each other during the bad times.

...sounds like you have received some good advice. You were able to corale all the Poobahs to the table to here this...WOW! Nicely done

I think part of the problem is we don't HAVE enough friends...she is very reticent, guarded, like me...it might actually be nice if she had someone she vented to a lot, just not someone I am friends with too!

You are so right about communication, there is such a big breakdown there. It's hard for both of us--evening is a bad time for both of us, physically and mentally, yet so much of our together-time is evening.

Sounds like your hubby is doing a great job.

No, it's perfectly OK...it was late, I got into a bit of a writing tizzy. I really did not allude to enough of the background in my first post. I guess I had not meant to get into that much detail, but once I got going...well, sometimes I go a little overboard.

I didn't consider this last night, but my pdoc weaned me off lithium a couple of weeks ago...it's possible there was a manic edge to my writing there, maybe obsessive too. I need to keep an eye on that.

I wish I had more trust in the person my wife vented to. That particular friend tends to pass on a lot of secrets, be really judgmental, etc. With someone else, who knows, it might be OK. My wife and I actually see the same pdoc, and I am fine with that...

You are right, we need to work on the relationship...a lot...

Yes, a lot of good input here; I really appreciate it, folks.

LOL about the Poobahs...I'm famous!!!

Based upon your reply, I would say that your wife’s depression is much more severe than you think. I’m so sorry that you’re all experiencing this. Is there someone that can help? A family member perhaps?

I’m very fortunate that my husband has been able to pick up the slack left behind when I’ve had my major bouts of depression. I really don’t know where our children would be in life now if he hadn’t.

I ain't no Poobah - I'm just chatty. Besides, only my favorite cousin is allowed to call me "poo."

Speaking of chatty poo.......

I agree my husband deserves sainthood, but we have our moments. We love with passion and we fight with passion. It's inevitable when our "stars" collide. There will be times when he comes home at his wits end after a horrible day.

I'm completely isolated now because my friends have all abandoned me. My online friends have abandoned me to Facebook. On sunny days, I have to keep the blinds closed. If I can't find any food to eat, I have to wait until he comes home from work - sometimes it's very late because a client and his boss will demand he stay to fix their phones.

When he does the laundry, I'm a nervous wreck because I'm afraid someone will steal our clothes and I only have one set of sheets left. When I'm a nervous wreck, I become childlike - by the time he comes home, I'm even worse.

Other times, he'll come home at his wit's end - but I'll be really happy to finally have some company. I'll follow him around chatting all the while. I know it's irritating because at one time we had an alcoholic friend stay with us. This friend would be waiting for me in the driveway, follow me into the house, and stand outside my bathroom door talking gibberish. Fortunately, he didn't stay long with us.

Neither one of us are saints. He'll occasionally call me the "C" word, but he also knows that's an invitation for a serious discussion - no holes barred, with the exception of physical abuse. Over the years we have grown to know each other more, and our love has grown stronger.

I know what you're saying about confiding in your friend and the fear of judgment. My illness causes me to bruise easily from the slightest bump. I also develop amyloid lesions that look like deep bruises - I can tell the difference because when I press down on it I feel nothing. The lesions also come in the form of huge blood blisters on my hands. They accidentally pop sometimes when I'm trying to get dressed or brush my hair - I'll get blood on my clothing, hair, and sometime when I touch my face

I've had neighbors confront my husband on my bruised/bloody condition. It really ticks me off because they should know better - especially the ones who knew my mother who had the same illness. Those bloody lesions were all over her shoulders, arms and legs.

I also understand your wife's mistrust. I brought my husband to a support group meeting for people with amyloidosis. I was thrilled to finally give him a place to feel comfortable around "supportive friends." The woman who developed the meetings did so at my request.

We sat down at the table and she came running over to us. I was thrilled to introduce her to my husband, my saint, my Prince Charming. I introduced her to my husband and recognized that look in her eyes - all she saw was a dirty Mexican. Instead of saying "It's nice to meet you," she looked at both of us and said "Do you think it will last?"

WTH was she talking about - our marriage or my life??? We didn't even know how to respond to that question and were furious, but we sat through the entire meeting. We listened to everyone else talk about how exciting it was to be together surrounded by so much love and support.

Okay - I'm going to stop venting in your thread. This thread is YOUR rant, not mine.

Plus I think sometimes we forget that, as humans, everything we do is for personal benefit. Sure, we might like to think that we do things out of the kindness of our hearts, but it still makes us feel good. That's why we do anything for anybody. So it's hard to sit back and think "now what am I getting out of this?" or "what is she getting out of this?". Neither one of you wants to let the other person down but at the same time, we have to get something out of a relationship to feel that its worth it.

So thats my question, what are you guys getting out of this relationship? Or what would you LIKE to get out of it? It's just not plausible to expect things from someone for nothing in return (that goes for both parties, I'm not trying to pick on you or anything)

There is a lot going on here. Do you love each other? Do you want the relationship to continue? One member in a similar situation referred to an icky list. After discussion, the partners made an icky list of things that were impediments to a more meaningful relationship and worked to resolve them.

It seems both of you are somewhat unhappy. Whether you want to change that is the first question to address when making up the plan.

Good luck.

I think that's a good idea Byzantine.

I met my husband at a time when I was done playing around. I had resolved to be a single parent the rest of my life because I would not sacrifice my child for any man.

I was a "list-maker" too. With my first husband, it was usually a list of pros and cons about our marriage. With my second, I made an "icky list" of all his quirks and habits before I committed myself to him. I evaluated each little one and decided I could live with them for the rest of my life. Over the years, they have become endearing. I LOVE listening to the sound of him snoring. If it is excessively loud, I turn on a fan to balance out the noise. If it wakes me up, oh well. I've awoken him from a sound sleep too. How I would miss the sound of his breathing if he should die first.

Slothrop - If you and your wife want to work this out together, maybe you could write up your icky lists. Do it on a day when you are both feeling strong and balanced and remember it's not a personal attack- it's a chance for your love to grow stronger.

If there is a particular item that can't be changed, no matter how hard you try - learn to love that quirk.

[quote=AAAAA;1322330]Based upon your reply, I would say that your wife’s depression is much more severe than you think.[/quote]

This is a great point, AAAAA, and actually I have had that thought. I've encouraged my wife to fully communicate her symptoms and behavior to her psychiatrist, and to schedule and attend regular therapy. Following her most recent visit, the psychiatrist initiated some meds changes, and I hope they make a difference.

I should go with her to one of her appointments and make sure the Dr. is hearing about all symptoms, including ones my wife might not want to bring up, or doesn't "see" anymore.

It seems like people who want to battle their mental issues can usually make some headway. I want to understand why she has been seeing psychiatrists for a long time, and tried different meds, but the issues never seem to get any better.

It bothers me that she can be perfectly happy as long as she doesn't have to do anything she doesn't feel like. But when life is tiresome (and hey, sometimes it just is) the mood swings back to "train wreck." The same doc who diagnosed me bipolar does not see it in her.

Unfortunately we have a shortage of helpful friends/relatives where we live, but I can try to initiate more discussion with objective professionals.