[DocJohn]

The end of a relationship is always hard, especially if it's not mutual. I'm not sure mine was, although I might say it was, I'm not sure if I can fully and truly believe that. In some ways, I'm not even sure it's 100% completely over, but it definitely feels like it is.

I don't usually be so public with such things, but then again, I don't usually expect my life to go one way and have it zag off in an unexpected direction overnight. I don't expect someone that I care very deeply about to turn off her feelings for me without letting me know in advance. I don't expect the unexpected, funny that!

(Not really.)

I'm sad, I'm miserable, I'm in that space that I think everyone has been at in their lives at one time or another, to have something so precious one moment, and see it gone the next. Words are just words, she says, but how about just being nice? I can't argue... I'm not always the nicest person in the world, although I have tried harder to be a more caring, thoughtful, and yes, nice individual.

She says she sees warning signs, and when she's seen them in past relationships and ignored them, it has always turned into trouble for her. Who can argue with that? Who can say that I have been a saint all the time toward her, or toward anyone? Treat others the way you would like to be treated, is how the saying goes. I can't even do that.

Yes, there's some self-pity in there, but I think that's inevitable. We can't help but pity ourselves when we've seen how much pain we've caused in another person's life, and indirectly, in our own. How stupid we've been and can be. How short-sighted and selfish. How misdirected and misguided.

I'm all of those things today, and perhaps, in this entire lifetime. I want to help others, all the time not being able to help myself enough to save the one thing that I truly care most about in this world.

John

[curlyq]

DocJohn,
I'm so sorry to hear of your relationship ending. Earlier today I was thinking of the pain of when one of my love relationships ended. I was thinking of the things I did wrong and how I could not foresee what was going to happen down the line. For quite awhile, too, I was in that "bargaining" stage of maybe it's not over and to me it really wasn't clear. To top it off he didn't always make it clear either.

In these relationships it takes two, I believe, and it's never all one person's "fault." I know we blame ourselves but sometimes there is some mysterious something we may not realize instead of someone who is at fault. I don't know if I make sense here but I'm trying to. The more I look back at my previous love relationships I see more and more that there was no way I could have seen all of these things at the time. Sometimes I acted in ways that I could not understand. I think, though, that we all respond to certain things in different ways at different times for reasons we don't know. I know I do and then think-was that me?

There's this book called "How Good Do We Have To Be?" by Harold Kushner, I believe and he makes a lot of sense. He talks about how hard life is when we have so many various choices and we can inevitably make lots of mistakes. I got it for myself because I was so down on myself that it helped me to understand more about how we just don't know the future all the time and more. I haven't finished it but will one day. Sometimes in my best efforts even things have flopped terribly. All those mysterious things in life that we just don't know will or won't occur. I don't believe that we are totally the masters of our lives, be it wrong or right. I think we are part of it but there are so many other factors that weigh in, too. And some of those things are unknown.

I could not believe how with certain people I would be one way and then with others different. Maybe there was some trigger somehow that I didn't know. I've acted in embarrassing ways at times and could not fathom why exactly. Not saying you did this, just explaining how I've been thinking of these things lately.

I'm feeling grief now, too, at moving from here and will never see someone I really fell in love with (nothing ever came of it, though). It hurts yes and I'm trying not to feel it. I will allow myself to when I get squared away, hopefully, have a good cry. I guess that's the grief process and it's a tough one for me. I know it's very hard for you, too, and so I hope you will be kind to yourself while you're going through this. Sometimes for me treating myself to movies or Chinese dinners helps. Take care and kind regards to you. CQ



<font color=purple>"If you free what is inside you,
it will make you free;
if you hold onto what is inside you
it will destroy you."

Zen Proverb
</font color=purple>

[poison]

i'm sorry to hear about your pain Dr John....

i can relate when you say "I want to help others, all the time not being able to help myself enough..." but maybe this quality is more noble then it seems? And i don't think it implies a certain "short-sighted" and "selfish" characteristics that you mentioned.....that's far from selfish. And i'm sure anyone that you've ever helped would agree.

I don't know the details, so I don't mean to presume......but you sound like you're aware of whatever "it" was that was hidden from you before.....i would think this is a good thing? Maybe this breeds hope for the future? For mending the past?.....

I hope all gets well soon.........and i hope everthing will still work out for you in the end....

best wishes.......

- poison.

"Nothing makes us so lonely as our secrets."
-Paul Tournier

"While one person hesitates because he feels inferior, the other is busy making mistakes and becoming superior."
-Henry C. Link

[DocJohn]

Thanks CQ, it does help to hear those words and the suggestions for the book, which I will check into first chance I get.

It just happened today, and to me, it seems to have come out of the blue. She says she's tried in the past to tell me, to put things on hold, and that's true, and I didn't really let her. I was too afraid of what that might mean, especially if she chose to go another path.

Which is exactly what I'm faced with anyway, just a few months later, and just less hopeful than ever before for the future.

I mean, truly, how many chances does one person get in this lifetime to "get it right"? I feel like I've been given 2, maybe 3, chances in this area, and each time I feel like I'm the main one who's blown it. Even now, she tries and tell me, "It's not you, it's me..." and I'm like, yeah, right. I guess blame is natural to try and do, but it's probably not all that helpful, since I'm sure it was both of us.

It's a complicated story, not sure how indepth I want to go in here, save to say, I honestly believed in my heart that she was the one, and I thought she felt the same for me. I think now that the latter part of that belief was false and she never quite felt the same way for me as I did for her.

Hanging in there,
John

[DocJohn]

Hi poison, thanks for the kind words... it helps... "It" is simply my acting in ways which would not be seen as beneficial or helpful to anyone. Some of you might be surprised to hear the things I've done and what an *** I can be in real life. But that's the fact -- I'm human, I make mistakes. I look now and say, "I would never do that again," but the fact is, I will never be given another chance with this woman. And that saddens me.

At least it doesn't look like I will.

I hope I've learned something from this relationship, but it's getting to the point in my life where I feel like despite all I've learned, I'm just not the right kind of a person maybe for a relationship. Period. That saddens me too, but it's beginning to seem and feel like that way.

John

[poison]

hi again...

I don't think i'd be surprised by some of the things you do.....I'm not trying to insult you either, but everyone has problems or whatever label you want to give it. I know I have mine....I also know that because I'm aware of my faults - I can abolish them too. You seem to know your's, so I would say don't lose hope. There's always hope.

and finally, you shouldn't feel like you're not the right type of person for any kind of relationship. There's someone for everyone out there. This I know. =) No one is alone forever.

And with that.....I wish you the best.

- poison

"Nothing makes us so lonely as our secrets."
-Paul Tournier

"While one person hesitates because he feels inferior, the other is busy making mistakes and becoming superior."
-Henry C. Link

[curlyq]

DocJohn,
After losing 2 men in my life and several dating fiascos I think I did what you are talking/thinking about. I just stopped dating or trying. I got pets to tend while I developed high hopes about this other guy I mentioned before. He didn't think of me the way I did about him. I felt this way about him for over 3 years! Think I'm strange? I even got the nerve to finally ask him out one day and his response took awhile to set in. He said he was seeing someone. I didn't really believe him. Then I knew in a way there was no chance but yet I did not want to fully believe it either. I had dreams of a life with him, too. I see now, even though I still have feelings for him, that it would not work--or would it? See how I am?

Anyway, the right person still may come along for you. I know of people who have been married maybe 8, 9 times. Wonder what keeps them trying, I say. I've never been married but had 2 actual serious long term relationships and lots of shorter relationships and many dates. Not sure if anyone is out there for me either at this point, though.

Sometimes life takes big turns and good things start to happen. I'm trying to hold onto those hopes and think it's a good idea to try to keep hope alive. Best wishes, CQ

<font color=purple>"If you free what is inside you,
it will make you free;
if you hold onto what is inside you
it will destroy you."

Zen Proverb
</font color=purple>

[splash]

hi DocJohn,

i'm certainly no relationship expert myself, but it seems that, no matter how it ends, or who ends it, there's grief on both sides. so, maybe allowing yourself to grieve is okay.

i really don't know what to say. i had a whole lot written down but... still not quite sure. i can say that i spent almost half my life thinking that i'm not "normal", that i can't have a "normal", intimate relationship. i've felt for a very long time that i'm not the relationship-type. my mother used to ask me, "when are you getting married?" she doesn't ask any more. sure, sometimes i'm jealous of my friends who are involved in serious relationships, but only once in awhile, like when everyone goes to a party as couples. i'm certainly not jealous of my sister, who's just started divorce proceedings.

it used to bother me a lot to think that i may never marry, or have children, but over the past few years, my life has become rich in other ways. for one, i have more of a relationship with myself. sure, there will always be an empty spot that a "significant other" could help fill, but which is the more important relationship? the one with yourself or with other people? i have found that, since i started having a better relationship with myself, taking care of myself, that my other relationships are all the more better. like any relationship, it takes work. it didn't happen over night, but it makes living a whole lot easier.

i'm so sorry you're grieving right now, and i do hope that some day you'll find that "special someone." but until then, learn from your mistakes and take care of yourself.

one of the things i like about being a programmer is that mistakes are inevitable. it's often in those mistakes that solutions are found. it's like life. we're not always perfect, but we can learn a lot when things don't go as we planned.

take care,

splash

[CamW]

Wow Doc, s••• happens doesn't it? I was just posting in another thread about these kind of bolts from the blue. I think that us guys just seem to shut out the problem parts of the relationship and focus on what's going right. Unfortunately, that focus is usually only on our own male egocentricism.

It sure is a kick, though. You are pushing the boundaries of therapy, working through the bugs of online treatments, and growing at the leading edge of a technology that has seemingly infinite potential. Just as it starts to gel (or at least there is a glimmer of light in the distance), fate cruelly pulls the rug out from under you.

So, you're not as nice as you come across online. Hmmm ..... where have I heard that before? I can tell you one thing; I'd never work for me (but I have seen worse managers). In what way are you an ***? Forward and brash, angry, impatient, etc.?

Here, I came across <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.peacebreath.com/breath.html>this</A> somewhere. Use it to escape for a moment or two.

Hang in there - Cam

<font color=blue>"Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans. - John Lennon</font color=blue>

[darkeyes]

Sorry this isn't much consolation, at least you weren't married for 23-24 yrs. and found out the person you trusted was foolong around with their co-worker, which caused you to lose it, then be diagnosed as bipolar and be put on meds that caused you to gain 30+ lbs. and now have a permanent record of being mentally ill. Sorry I just went off, but I am still working through this with therapy, and meds,.etc. It's been 2 years of lots of "hard" work, things are coming along with us but I still have my moments of wondering why. . . Things do work out for the best, even if that means a new relationship, my brother is in his 3rd marriage and it seems like it is for keeps Don't blame yourself, that is what I heard in therapy. . . Maybe it is a time that both of you needed to move on. I hope in time you will find what you are looking for and need. Take care Doc John
"darkeyes"

[mj14]

DocJohn, I'm so sorry to hear about the pain you are going through...whenever a relationship ends, it is painful, and for it to come unexpectedly only makes it more so. I wish I had some great advice like some of the others here have had, but I'm so lousy at making relationships last that about all I'd be able to say is, "whatever you do, don't do anything like mj!"

The one thing I can say with certainty, though, is that you never run out of chances to get it right. I know that right now, your thoughts are all on this relationship, but I firmly believe that there is someone out there for everyone...it just takes some of us longer to find our someone.

Take care,
mj

[darkeyes]

mj14,
You are exactly, right !!!! Just takes time . . .

[DocJohn]

I want to thank everyone for the kinds words of encouragement and support. It helps to know that I'm not alone, that perhaps things aren't as bad as they seem, and there's always hope for the future.

I'm feeling a little better today, not 100% convinced it is over (we have a history of undoing these things, although this time is definitely different and feels like it's more likely to be final, as she's made clear)... of course, that's also probably a healthy dose of denial. Nothing like good ole denial to keep you going...

There are flashes of anger... at myself, at her... at letting it get like this or to this point. I know I'm not all to blame, yet you can't help but feel like you are a big part of the problem (even when she herself tells me I'm not, and tries to take the blame, I know she's doing it partially because it's true and that's what she believes, but also part because I know she's trying to make this as easy as possible, hoping I will just sort of go away)...

Today is going to be difficult, I know. Yesterday was tough, today isn't any easier because I have 8 or 9 hours here alone in this house. I have little to do, and even less motivation to do it. I went to church already, thinking that would help, and it sorta did... been afraid to call my family, because I feel like if I confide in them, that will make it more "real" and permanent...

Thanks again, hanging in there....

John

[darkeyes]

I've found in my life that I am constantly fighting off the sadness and pain of the aching heart, some days the struggle is harder than others, 2yrs ago I almost lost the struggle but with the help of an excellent psychologist and psychiatrist I've survived. Now when I am feeling "down" I come to this wonderful forum (in between therapy) and find comfort in their words, perhaps you will find it here too. Doc John thanks so much for providing us all with this "special place" From my own experiences, try not to go to places you've gone together or be around the people you would be around when you were a couple. I'd take rides to some parks and historic places, new towns, okay it is not the magic fix but it helps. And if if you feel a need to cry, well do not hold back, let it out! I've also learned to put my self first for now on, not being selfish but not letting others call the shots with my heart if you know what I mean. Like the Wiz said to the Tin Man, why do you want a heart? They only get broken! But I fight each day to keep mine from being broken, and sometimes I almost surrender but I keep on fighting to keep the strength and faith! Hang in there, it gets better.
"darkeyes"

[bptoo]

Doc John,

I find in these situations I have far too much or far too little to say, this time it's too little. Probably a good thing. I see two things that you're doing that give me a great sense of hope for the both of you.You're not taking on all the blame yourself, or laying off all the blame onto to her. This is incredibly admirable on your part.

I hope things work out for you and I'll keep you in my thoughts Doc. I think it's great that after all the things that you've done for us here in giving us support, you know you can come here and we'll do the same for you.

bptoo

"Life is 10% what you make it, and 90% how you take it."

[whereislife]

Doc John, I'm so sorry you are in this place. I've been there and I can really relate to your comment about the future.

I found when my husband walked out after 17 years without so much as a discussion the future seemed to be nonexistent. It's odd how we subconsiously have a future, even if we don't formally think about it. Then all of a sudden there is nothing but darkness out there.

Maybe it helps, maybe not, but there is a future. I just kept telling myself I had a life before I met him, I can have a life now that he's gone.

Please take care of yourself. wil

[DocJohn]

Thanks... it's good to read the feedback people have given and to know, well, heck, it's okay to come here and cry on everybody's shoulders. Heck, I've never said I wasn't human too, and times like this, you feel it intensely and it's hard to see there is any future.

As for being generous about what happened, don't get me wrong... there's anger there, and a sadness that won't quit any time soon. But the rational thinking part of me can look at things somewhat objectively and see this, that, and the other thing.

My heart, however, cries out at the injustice and loss it feels, the loss of closeness, intimacy, heck, even routine. I miss it all, and it'll be some time before I get over all of that.

John

[DocJohn]

wil..... ouch. 17 years! I'm sure that was much harder to deal with than my measly 1 1/2 years... I know how you must've felt, in some small way.

I know I will again regain my own life, but it's hard when so many memories are still so very much active right now in everything I do, every object around the house (we never lived together, thank goodness!). I had also put off making any local friends after moving to where I am now, and of course, that comes back to bite me now when it sure would be nice to have one or two here locally. Thank goodness my long distance friends have been so good to me, reminding me that I'm not the horrible person that I feel like right now.

John

[j_belle]

Hi, Doc

Not much more to add other than what has already been said... just wondering how you're doing.

<font color=green> One day in retrospect the years of struggle will strike you as the most beautiful. - Sigmund Freud </font color=green>

[kitty]

I am so sorry for the pain you are feeling and I know how it can feel eternal and that you will never find someone, but that is just not true. You say this came from out of the blue, but there must have been signs that you were just not seeing. I have ended several relationships where I got the same shocked response. Once, with a man I was with for almost 9 years. I was so incredibly unhappy I really don't know how he could not have known. You should really think about your relationship in hindsight and figure out what happened and what signs you should have picked up on. When you experience such unhappiness, at least you can use the information to change what happens in the future so your next relationship is better. This finally worked for me and I will celebrating my 8 year anniversary next month to my "soulmate". If you are open to it, you will meet someone. Don't let yourself get closed off.

[jsc1972]

A week later, how do you feel?

[DocJohn]

My moods have alternated back and forth over the past week. Concentrating on work has been difficult, to say the least, and one day while I have a sliver of hope it's not over, a day like today, I'm pretty much convinced it is.

On Thursday night, we had a very long face-to-face discussion where we shared each other's answers to the book, "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay" by Mira Kirshenbaum. Instead of bringing clarity to our situation (at this point, I was still believing she didn't know what she was going to do), it seemed to just muddy the waters.

This morning I call her and find out she saw the new guy again last night, and that sort of just did it for me. That, and hearing how she felt when I suggested it might not be a bad idea to continue going out on dates with me too. Uh-huh. Basically, no.

So now I'm stuck between a great sadness and depression to anger and a feeling of betrayal.

The sadness and depression have been there most every day, some days worse than other days. My friends, all long distance, have been a great help. What has hurt me the most is that she was my only local friend where I live, so I have no one really to hang out with on these very long weekends.

The anger and betrayal are mostly new. The anger comes from the way she broke up with me, with so little respect for me or the relationship, or the history of nearly 2 years we shared together. She went behind my back and began seeing someone else and is more concerned about that person's feelings than mine.

I don't know what else to say... She has left me feeling like I'm an idiot. I never saw this coming, and I feel like I'm the only person who was in this relationship! She has worked on it from time to time, but she just left the relationship so abruptly and unexpectedly, it doesn't even feel like this is the same person I know and love. I'm left with confusion and hurt.

John

[DocJohn]

There were signs, you bet.

What there wasn't, however, was fair notice that she was heading out the door until after she had long left. She left at least a week or two before she told me, maybe even as long as a month or two!

The signs were that when we were in the middle of an argument, she would say it's over, she's done. Then the next morning, we'd call each other, make up, and continue on as tho nothing happened. I thought it was just one of those things some couples do -- get into a heated argument, say things they don't mean just to hurt the other person, and then regret it later.

She says she was seriously trying to break up with me during those times, but it doesn't seem like it. She never stuck with it if that's the way she felt.

Now, out of the blue, she breaks up with me and says she's seeing someone else. But to make matters worse, she doesn't just break up with me. She says she needs some time to think about what to do. She doesn't want to talk about it (until Thursday night, finally, see my other post), and when we do talk, it appears the relationship has a fair amount going for it, things aren't as bad as they seemed, and maybe we've got a chance.

Then it seems like we don't, because she continues seeing this other guy and makes it sound as if our problems (again!) are just too difficult to deal with.

What it is is simple. Our relationship wasn't perfect, we might get into an argument once a month or every other month. I didn't meet all of her needs. I was working on that in myself, and she acknowledged I had made changes. So she's dissatisfied, and someone calls her out of the blue and she feels like, what the heck, she deserves it and finds the guy meets some of those needs I don't.

So maybe she deserves this guy, ya know? Fine, just don't leave your current relationship as though it meant nothing to you overnight, that's all I ask.

John

[jsc1972]

Sounds like she's not ready for a relationship - - maybe on the rebound or she quits when things get too tough. Whatever her issues are, you can't fix. It's always hurts me to hear how people can invest so much into a relationship, then go trash it so quickly. I hope that part of you never changes - - your loyalty and willingness to commit to another person. Also, I hope you don't pick up any of her bad habits. Make a dart-board with her picture on it . . . just kidding.

[curlyq]

Hi DocJohn,
Unfortunately some people can zap us out of their minds somehow and forget all we did and all we cared and all we had. My mother did it to me and so did my last great love many years back. It hurt as bad as when someone died. They chose someone else over me. I was so very distraught I wanted to die--just to tell you that I know the agony of this kind of rejection. Now, I have a fear of it bad. Hope to get over it someday before I die though. I agree that someone should acknowledge what there was and what we tried to do and how much we cared.

I really think that people that act as your girlfriend is acting are not totally into their feelings and more into escaping from things instead. My last love found someone else right away after we had a big falling out. Then I was tormented for a long time trying to get back with him. I felt anger and humilation bigtime. Maybe that's why I shy away from a relationship after that utter agony. But we have to remember there are more mature ready for relationships and committment type of people out there for us. I keep telling myself that at least......yes, there is still hope.

If you don't mind me saying you have a whole lot going for you. You are accomplished, very attractive, and caring and open to change. What more can a woman ask for? There are many more who will want you.

About relationships someone once said to me: "If she doesn't want me, I don't want her!" I've thought about that for years and he made sense. Unfortunately at the time I had hoped to be able to come to that conclusion which is a tough one.

Hope you keep your chin up and remember all the good you are and do. CQ

<font color=orange>"I must lose myself in action,
lest I wither in despair." Lord Tennyson</font color=orange>