[gordian_knot]

This topic is buried in another thread but I’m breaking it out into its own thread to see if anyone else has been through this.

My wife is chronically depressed/PD and is refusing treatment. She recently attempted suicide and was found by our 13 year old daughter who called 911. She’s on Facebook and Gmail up to 15 hours per day while I take care of every single household and parenting responsibility. Meanwhile, she declares her love daily to the guy she's having an online affair with, has cybersex with him regularly, plus now she talks to him on the phone and says she wants to travel to Britain to meet him and have a child with him.

I’ve finally decided I cannot allow this to continue. I’ve been told that if she attempts suicide again, Child Welfare/Social Services could start an investigation to determine whether or not our house is a suitable environment for our kids. There’s no way in hell I’ll let that happen.

So I’ve taken some steps. I’ve protected our finances and I’ve found out what my legal rights are when it comes to the safety of my kids. I really, truly love her and I don’t want a divorce, but I needed to know my options.

Now comes the really hard part. I’m prepared to accept her illness and help her through it if she wants me to, like I’ve always done, but I’m not prepared to accept either her infidelity or her unwillingness to get medical and psychological help. The plan I put together after talking with a therapist is to do the following: <ul type="square">[*]Make sure the kids are out of the house and then talk to my wife and tell her, calmly and rationally, that I will no longer allow her behaviour and her choices to damage our relationship and our family. I’ll describe her behaviour, tell her how I’m feeling, and then be assertive and set limits, not as a punishment or because I think this is how she should act, but because this is how I’d like to be treated and what I feel is best for me and my family.[*]First decision is to cut off internet access to the house. To leave it running is to perpetuate and condone her infidelity.[*]Second, tell her I can’t be in a relationship with someone who refuses treatment for a treatable illness, nor is it safe for our kids. That’ll mean that if she doesn’t go to therapy and take her meds, I’ll start an official separation.[*]Finally, I’m going to let my family and close friends know exactly what’s going on, because God knows I’m going to need the support.[/list]Frankly, I’m terrified that I’m starting something I won’t be able to stop. But I know it’s the right thing. I just hope I’m handling this right. Has anyone else been through something like this?

[Lenny]

Goridan....you are a good man sir.

I don't mean to sound condecending but you have just set some loving boundaires. You have created a sound priority list which includes first and foremost,,your children's welfare,,,followed by your wife's health and future.

No one,,a court or otherwise could find fault with your plans. Your welfare is justifiably included but is not self serving.

I don't know if there is anything more frustrating than loving someone who is spiraling out of control and refuses help.

In my experience, it is the ultimate of powerlessness.

If you institute these boundaries,,don't bend. If you do you will never be able to expect your wife to see them in the loving light they are offered. They will just be words.

IMHO.

Lenny

[Perna]

As a woman, I don't see anything hurtful or ugly about your plans; sounds like they were well thought out and I wish you luck.

I do wonder at your "love" for her, based on her obvious callus behavior toward you? That she does nothing for herself or the household, I don't understand why you "care" anymore as she obviously doesn't.

[LMo]

This is good for me to read - thank you for sharing it. I have been struggling with this issue for many years. While my husband has never cheated, he goes through phases of being very resistant to treatment, and now is one of them. I have issued many ultimatums to get him into treatment, and need to get up the gumption to do it again. It is looking like it needs to be done again, but it is a very draining process. It helps knowing that someone else has some concrete steps they are following.

Good luck with it all - I'll be following your posts to see how it goes.

[Razzleberry]

I have never been thru this, no. But I think you have a great plan set up. I hope we can give you the courage to follow thru with it all. It really is what needs to be done.

My mom is addicted to the internet and has a mental illness. I am now 27 and have a life of my own, but it still hurts. It hurt even more when I was 15 and saw it going on in front of me. There is nothing more that I wish, than if my dad could have done exactly what you are planning to do. To this day I ask myself, "Why didn't he just do something drastic?" Our family literally fell apart. One day your kids will thank you for what you did. And you will feel better for it, too.

[trippinmickey]

My room mate did the same thing she getting married to a guy she meet on my space . But she never meet him but says she having his baby and sends him money all the time he live over seas in some weird country.

As far as you losing the kids you wont . They will make her leave the house and force her to get help they wont let her back to see the kids if she doesn't,t .I know this because it happen to me .I didn't think I was sick at the time but now that I look back I was well I missed my wife and kids I know now it was for the best . I got on Meds. and went to groups to learn to live with my mental illness thats how I got a roommate .She is living the same kind of fantasy your wife is .

You need to talk to the doctors about 302 (thats putting in the hospital wether she wont to or not its done by the courts )and then call CYS In my state thats children and youth were they can legally make her move out and get help if she poses a danger to her self or others and from what you said she dose .Hopefully that will snap her out of it.

I know from Exp. when we are that sick were not our selfs and dont think right and unless we are force to get help most of us wont we dont know any better we are just in pain and will do or take anything to stop it .

[StarPonysMama]

I cannot express enough how incredibly impressed I am with the way you have planned, observed, analyzed your feelings, etc. I agree with Perna that it seems like she doesn't care so why should you. However, from my standpoint - I have a "sorta-boyfriend" (I say that because I refuse to get too close and I have set some boundaries recently) that I CONSTANTLY have to give ultimatums. I think he's damaged from his upbringing. It's a whole other thread but, the bottom line is - I understand how hard it is to GIVE UP.

Sometimes I sit here and think, "My god, I'm a pretty girl, young, educated, career-oriented, funny, entertaining, and diverse, why should I put up with this crap?" On the FLIP side, I dearly love this man and have a deep connection with him that I have never felt before and that makes it so hard for me to walk away.

Perhaps it's all in my head. But regardless, I can certainly empathize with your feeling.

[Rhapsody]

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Perna said:
I do wonder at your "love" for her, based on her obvious callus behavior toward you? That she does nothing for herself or the household, I don't understand why you "care" anymore as she obviously doesn't.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

As a woman who had a total mental break down ten years ago and attempted suicide three different times during this difficult period in time..... I cannot see how one can say that his wife does not care for her husband just because she is struggling (and hard at that)....... please keep in mine that many mentally ill people need help from professionally and often than not they cannot do it on their own - seek the help they need.

[gordian_knot]

Perna said: </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I do wonder at your "love" for her, based on her obvious callus behavior toward you? That she does nothing for herself or the household, I don't understand why you "care" anymore as she obviously doesn't.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> We've been together for sixteen years and married for ten years. She's been part of my life for almost half of my entire life. I can't help but care for her. She's part of my DNA. But I'm starting to understand that just as you can't build a relationship on just love alone, you also can't let it drag on if love is all that's left. Especially when it’s potentially harmful for my kids.

Lmo said: </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
It helps knowing that someone else has some concrete steps they are following.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Not having concrete steps to follow and not knowing what to do was excruciating for me. It got to the point where I was hating my big, dumb, procrastinating *** for letting this happen and doing nothing. Well, I wasn’t doing nothing. I realized that my entire life has been based around trying to do only what’s best for my wife. But what I really need to do now is make decisions that put my family’s needs first, and then my wife can make her decisions after that in response. Hopefully things go well in your own situation. I truly know how incredibly hard this is.

Pinksoil said: </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
My mom is addicted to the internet and has a mental illness. …It hurt even more when I was 15 and saw it going on in front of me. There is nothing more that I wish, than if my dad could have done exactly what you are planning to do. To this day I ask myself, "Why didn't he just do something drastic?" …One day your kids will thank you for what you did.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Jesus. Do my kids think that? It’s so hard for me to tell. They’re such awesome, happy kids, and I’ll do anything to keep them that way. The near future is going to be really, really hard on them if my wife reacts as violently and irrationally as I think she probably will. I hope they’ll eventually understand. Thank you for your post, really. That helped a lot.

I hope to God I don’t have to use those kinds of measures, trippinmicky. I think – I hope – she loves our kids enough not to let it go that far.

I know exactly what you mean, StarPonysMama. It’s hard to walk away, and not just because of everything that I’ve invested into our relationship or the fact that we have children. To simply walk away at this point wouldn’t be humane. My wife is to blame for refusing treatment but it’s not her fault that she’s ill.

[seeker1950]

Gordian Knot, You are one brave fella, and as Lenny says...a good man, but I think you are in for a hard ride. How, for instance, do you plan to deny access to the Internet, which seems to be the source of the infidelity? She sounds to be addicted to the Internet, first of all, and to this male acquaintance she has made. She is ignoring your home and children as a result. I sense that the **** will hit the fan when you set down this rule, and keep in mind, if she has mobility, there are other ways of accessing the internet, such as at a library or cafe.
I totally agree with Perna on this, that your caring exceeds the limits of most men (or women) in such a situation. Do you really think that counseling or psychiatric help is going to restore a happy household to the both of you? It sounds like she doesn't love you, and doesn't seem to care for the children either. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you might be well-advised at this point to consult a lawyer with all this information, just to protect your custody rights.
Patty

[LMo]

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gordian_knot said:
Not having concrete steps to follow and not knowing what to do was excruciating for me.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I know - excruciating for me, too. I am a person of action, but the proper "actions" evade me often because the response I will get from him is not that of a rational person. People often have very well-meaning but trite and high-level advice for what I "should" do, but the concrete steps are where I get stuck. The advice is easier said than done - the hard part is defining the detailed plan.

Hang in there

[LMo]

To comment on what you said about "it's not her fault that she's ill" and on being humane - that's how I feel, too. In my husband's case, it's his fault that he resists efforts to help him, but I do have enormous amounts of compassion for him. He's going through 10x the pain and struggle that I am.

Doesn't mean it's easy on US, though.

I've often thought about the extreme version of tough love and throwing him out of the house, based on the notion that I've been making life "too easy" for him. But honestly, I fear that if I did, I would find him sleeping under a bridge on a cardboard box. Or worse. I don't know if I could live with myself if that happened - I don't want him to leave - I just want him to get better.

[gordian_knot]

I could easily block certain websites, or password-protect any internet usage, or even lock down the computer by putting on a boot password. But the only definitive way of stopping her internet usage with the least amount of headaches is to disconnect our service. I'm going to call our internet company and see if they have the ability to disconnect the service for a length of time, kind of like disconnecting your cable service while you're on vacation. If they don't, I'll just cancel it completely. Which sucks both for me and for my kids, but there's no other way to make it work. If, after that, her decision is to go to the library instead to get her 'net fix... well, that's her choice, and I won't stop her. But that sends me a pretty clear message, doesn't it?

I've been told that sometimes when a spouse finally gets proper treatment for depression, they get just well enough to be able to leave and seek a divorce. I've thought about that. A lot. I honestly don't know if she loves me anymore.

It hurts just typing that.

It's not harsh to say, it's just... reality. It is what it is. But I owe it to myself and my family to set these limits, and I owe it to her to allow her to decide for herself what she wants to do after that. I can't force her to get help and I can't force her to love me, but I guess I'm going to force her to decide.

I've gotten some basic legal advice. There'd be a very good chance I'd get sole custody of the kids, considering her behaviour and medical history. A divorce would wipe us both out financially, though. I'm trying not to think about that part.

[gordian_knot]

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LMo said:
I am a person of action, but the proper "actions" evade me often because the response I will get from him is not that of a rational person.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Yeah, I know. Sometimes, it's like asking a sales clerk the cost of a shirt, and he answers "Elephant" and then burns down the store. I never know what words or actions will set my wife off.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
LMo said:
I've often thought about the extreme version of tough love and throwing him out of the house, based on the notion that I've been making life "too easy" for him.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Wow. Absolute deja vu. That's exactly what I've thought for a long time. And I'd try to justify it in my mind, thinking it's just the status-quo-busting shock needed to jolt her out of her everyday slump of depression and get help, and no, it's not because it would feel really, perversely satisfying to take control with such a dramatic gesture after being meek and passive for so long.

I'm understanding now that I'm not trying to do something to her. I'm doing something for my family, and how she acts after that is entirely her choice.

[LMo]

My heart is really going out to you, especially after the 2nd to last post. But, you have your head on straight, and that's a good thing. You're doing the best you can.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
gordian_knot said:
Sometimes, it's like asking a sales clerk the cost of a shirt, and he answers "Elephant" and then burns down the store. I never know what words or actions will set my wife off.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Good one... I'd laugh, but honestly, to you and me, it's not really funny... just sad...

[LMo]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
gordian_knot said:
The plan I put together after talking with a therapist is to do the following:[LIST][*]Finally, I’m going to let my family and close friends know exactly what’s going on, because God knows I’m going to need the support.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Just a word of caution on this one. I agree - you will need the support. But in my experience, sharing the details of my problem with my real-life friends has caused me little but judgment and alienation, some of which I brought on myself. Most people who have never been through something like this do not have a clue how hard it is. And worse, I feel as though *I* am the one being judged as being a doormat. Some friends have gone so far to call me an abuse victim who puts up with unacceptable behavior. What they don't understand is that I'm NOT PUTTING UP WITH IT. Or rather, I guess I am in the sense that I'm still in my marriage, but I'm doing EVERYTHING in my power to address it - I'm not sweeping the problems under the rug. I've learned to be extremely careful about who I share my husband's mental health problems with. And I've had better luck getting support from HIS friends versus my own. I do believe I've lost some friendships due to me revealing the reality of what I live with. I want the support, but I don't want the inevitable judgment.

That's just my experience - take it for what it's worth.

[gordian_knot]

Hm. I hadn't considered that. I mean, I know that people widely misunderstand mental illness, but I hope that the people I trust will know me well enough to understand. At the same time, although it's true that a lot of my wife's behaviour could be considered abusive, it isn't the same as a sociopathic husband who beats his wife, for example. I just read a newspaper article about a schoolteacher who developed extreme sexually dysfunctional and pedophilic behaviours which vanished completely after a previously-undiagnosed brain tumor was removed (click here for the story). Those behaviours weren't his fault. My wife's abusive behaviour is caused by a chronic chemical imbalance in her brain, which causes a bunch of other behaviours as well. I'll try to make my family understand that.

The people I'm planning on telling are my parents and one really good friend who is actually a mutual friend of both of us. Hopefully that's a small enough and close enough group of people to keep things under control.

This brings up a question I'm very interested in, for obvious reasons: What's the best way to tell your family and close friends about the struggles you've been having with a mentally ill spouse?

Personally, I type better than I talk, so I'm writing out a summary of the last seven years or so of my life to send to them, and I'll call them to talk to them about it afterward. That way I won't miss anything, and I can be careful to only include the facts and to leave out the emotion. I don't want them to hate her.

[Perna]

I would keep it to troubles you have been having (rather than her specific illness), that her illness makes it hard for her to focus on the family and less helpful around the house and you need that help and are instigating some rules to help her focus better?

[seeker1950]

At the same time you show such insight and compassion, it is also apparent that YOU are an emotionally battered husband. If it's just a matter of getting her to take medication for her illness (does she?), or what you think will be resolved in counseling, then I say give it a try, but your description of the circumstances make it sound like you and your children need a break from it to get yourselves healthy and happy. Do you really need to stay with a woman who has internet sex with a man far away and who wants to have his baby? who spends all that time on the Internet instead of caring for the children or being a wife to you? Sorry....I'm exasperated just thinking about it!
Patty

[LMo]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
gordian_knot said:
My wife's abusive behaviour is caused by a chronic chemical imbalance in her brain, which causes a bunch of other behaviours as well. I'll try to make my family understand that.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Yes, this is also how I see it, but the friends I've confided in have called it "making excuses for him". I see a big difference between being able to articulate an understanding of a problem versus "making excuses for someone", but they apparently do not.

I stick with telling my therapist and my friends online. Some friends online, even here, have gone as far as to say similar things, but it doesn't sting as badly. My therapist has never once made me feel as though I'm reacting to my reality in a less than healthy way.

I don't know what advice I can give about sharing with family and friends. It has completely backfired on me, so I guess I just wouldn't do it. I do wish you better luck than I have had, though, and as I mentioned before, HIS friends were more compassionate than MY friends have been, so choosing a mutual friend is probably a smart move on your part.

[chaotic13]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I type better than I talk, so I'm writing out a summary of the last seven years or so of my life to send to them, and I'll call them to talk to them about it afterward. That way I won't miss anything, and I can be careful to only include the facts and to leave out the emotion. I don't want them to hate her.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I think if I did this and my H found out about it, he would be very upset and hurt. Honestly, if the shoe was on the other foot and my H wrote family members and friends about me, I would be beyond upset.

Having a friend you can vent to can be very helpful. However, I think there is a limit to this disclosure. In my opinion most people do not really understand the issues you are facing. If you really want support, find yourself a good T and use them as your independent ear. This way you do not over burden your friends with stuff they really don't understand. Also you don't run the risk of your therapist: passing along information to other family members (family gossip--major problems), mentioning what you disclosed to your wife, or trying to help in less than helpful ways.

[gordian_knot]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Seeker said: If it's just a matter of getting her to take medication for her illness (does she?),

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Does she take medication? Well, since her severe psychotic period back in 2002, she's always taken the antipsychotic Seroquel because it's the only thing that helps her sleep. However, she has refused to take any antidepressant or anti-anxiety medication for several years. And it shows.

More and more, I'm damn glad I started posting on this board because I'm getting an outsider's perspective on my situation. I've known things were pretty bad, but people here keep saying that it's oh-my-God! psycho-horror-movie bad. So I guess it really is.

Seeker, I honestly don't know if counselling and meds will do any good. God, I sincerely hope it does and not just because I want my wife and friend and lover back, but mainly because a divorce would financially ruin the both of us and emotionally wreck our kids, especially since in my wife's condition she'd make it as harsh and damaging as possible for them. And they are awesome kids - smart, beautiful, happy, confident, open and trusting. They're the reason I can't just flee. The rather drastic steps I'm about to take are my last try at reclaiming a normal life for my family.

I'm going to call in sick to work one day next week. The kids'll be at school and that'll be my opportunity to talk to her and lay everything on the line.

[seeker1950]

Gordian, hun, I hear what you're saying about the financial considerations of divorce, as I left my husband of 20 years (unhappy years), and actually allowed him to write the divorce himself, sans lawyers, and accepted much less than i was due financially in order not to wreck him financially. So, unless the two of you could come to some kind of agreement like that, I guess you would be facing challenges in the money area...but there are worse things...like living a life unhappily and being emotionally abused.
Patty

[gordian_knot]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
mckell13 said:
I think if I did this and my H found out about it, he would be very upset and hurt. ...most people do not really understand the issues you are facing. If you really want support, find yourself a good T and use them as your independent ear.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
My parents' and our mutual friend's opinions matter a great deal to me, and if I tell them nothing won't they just get my wife's distorted view of things? Especially so, if our marriage ends in divorce? Do you think I should share anything with them at all?

I forgot to mention something important: we have an adult daughter who is 21 years old. She's actually my stepdaughter, but I've raised her since she was five and consider her my own. She knows some of what's going on, but not a lot, and my plan was to give her the details as well. How much should I tell her?