Over-controlling Mother (Won't let me have a relationship)

I have not read all of the responses so forgive me if I repeat what another poster has said.

You need to stop giving your mom so much information. None of it is ANY of her business.

She's very controlling and will not give up that control easily. She will have temper tantrums and throw guilt trips your way (don't worry, she will not love you any less). I think you have to understand and process that information before you attempt independence.

You will have a long term relationship with a woman at some point. You don't want your girlfriend to think that you are closer with your mom than you are with her. She will leave. And I would not blame her.
The trick is to listen to your mom's "pearls" of wisdom, nod your head, and let it go in one ear and out the other. If she grills you about your girlfriend, then you need to either change the subject, or put your foot down and tell her outright that it's none of her business.

I cannot stress this enough: Agree with your girlfriend/wife. NEVER give any indication that you favor your mom's opinion. Ever.

Your mom is definitely a control freak. Don't even TELL her a THING about anything personal from now on! She is overly dependent on you it seems like! She wants you all to herself as it sounds like she can't be alone.

Try to get back in touch with that woman before to much time has passed and apologize for what happened. It's not completely your fault, but you did let your mom control you and push you around. Tell her to but out. Stand up for yourself. She is not entitled to know everything about your life. Get a lock on your room asap. Don't leave out personal stuff like your phone or laptop.

BTW, no one really likes a momma's boy. Sorry, but you do come across as being one.

I have to tell you randman that I have a mother that is very controlling as well. What many people don't understand is that when you grow up with a parent that does not respect your boundaries, that you don't know how to put them up when you are an adult. I'm a people pleaser, but mostly I got that from placating my mom so that she wouldn't go into one of her rages if she didn't get her way. She has trained you so that you have to share everything with her, and it's extremely difficult to break this habit, because it has been a lifelong one.

Suffice it to say that it will be a process for you to try to change your behaviors. You can't change her, but you can change yourself. Reading that book will help you to recognize the patterns that you have fallen into with her, and by recognizing these harmful behaviors you will be able to change them. It won't happen overnight, but it will definitely be worthwhile. You are worth it and I wish you luck.

So first an update with how things are going with the ex-GF. So I've gone back for a second time to the gym this week. I've always gone Wednesday and Friday night's, but Friday's are kind of the social night where we all became friends. My ex-GF and I spent a lot of time together talking tonight. She seemed really happy that I've started coming back, and that I've started taking steps about fixing my problems with my Mom.

I also told her that I really hated the fact that she got dragged into this mess, that she was really the catalyst for this entire situation, and that I had never intended it to be like this. She said she knows it isn't her, it's my Mom, and that she can take it. She also said something to the extent that when I was involved with her when were together was unhealthy, and I need to get that resolved.

Now in terms of where we stand, I really don't know. I get the sense from her that she's not interested in getting back together into a relationship beyond friendship. Or perhaps she's waiting to see how things play out over the course of the next couple of months, and see how things progress with the relationship with my Mom before considering entering into a relationship with me again. I honestly don't know. But she did mention the office Christmas party again, and that she's going alone, and how she hates going to these things by herself. And she said it more than once. I wasn't about to invite myself, especially how the rest of the evening played out with the conversations we had just had. I'm not sure if that was a mistake or not, not to invite myself. It really did feel like if she wanted me to go with her, should would have asked me, but she didn't.

But all things considered, maybe it's best that we don't get back together right away, even if those cards are the table. I've just started re-discovering myself and problems I'm having with my Mom. I feel if she said yes, let's get back together right now, that it might be possible I could cave again into my Mother's demands. As much as I'm working at moving forward with these changes in my life, I still feel I have a lot to learn how to control me feelings with my Mom, and how to handle the situation better so that I don't do that sort of thing.

All in all, my ex-GF and I at least have our friendship back, which I do cherish. She is a lovely person and I deeply care for her. Does it hurt that we're not together; heck yeah. Being that I've not had a real relationship with a woman up until this point, and knowing myself, I get pretty emotionally attached. But if there is a chance for us again later down the road, I want to be sure that I'm at 100% so that something like this doesn't ever, ever happen again.

On to my Mom. When I got home tonight, she seemed okay, but it seems like I'm getting somewhat of the silent treatment. I was out for a long time tonight, and I know for a fact she can get jealous when I go out. She even gets that way with my friends. Fact; she's invited herself to lunch or dinner with my friends several times. My friends like my Mom, but they find it kind of weird. But again, she's depressed and very anti-social. I would really love for her to start seeing someone and get some counselling. It would be so beneficial to both her and I. One of her best friends recommended she see someone a few months back, about her being depressed about my Dad. But she told her friend no, that she has every right to still be depressed about my Dad since he's passed, and that's only been four years. She's been grieving about my Grandmother (her Mom) since 1990. I wonder if it would be a good idea for me to talk to her friend, tell her what's going on with my Mom and I, and maybe she could help push the idea of convincing her to go see someone? Or would that be crossing the line in the same way of what she's done to me?

I also would like some opinions on what would be the best way to go about finding a local therapist, one that has somewhat of an understanding about the situation I'm in. Any advice on the best way to search out one besides Google.

I've gotten half-way through the book, Toxic Parents by Susan Forward. It's been very informative and helpful. I found a couple of other books on Amazon on the subject, The Emotional Incest Syndrome: What to do When a Parent's Love Rules Your Life, and When He's Married to Mom: How to Help Mother-Enmeshe​d Men Open Their Hearts to True Love and Commitment. Has anyone else read either of these, or have any other recommendations?

In regards to some of the comments made above,

That's pretty much happened on the weekend after my Mom met my girlfriend back in September. She spent all weekend first yelling at me, and being angry. Then she spent the rest of it being depressed, telling me she's sick and needs to go to a nursing home, etc. We got into a huge argument that night, where I walked out the door. I didn't have my keys to the car, so I just kept walking and ended up sitting at a McDonald's for a few hours. I called my ex then to tell her what happened, because we were supposed to go out again that weekend, but didn't because of all the craziness my Mom put on. On the walk home I was ready to go back into a rage filled house. The first thing I said when I walked into the door was, "I don't know what I did so wrong to be in your bad books, but I guess I'll move out." My Mom told me that I'm not going anywhere, but she wasn't yelling anymore. I thought we had a fairly decent conversation about how I wanted a girlfriend yet then, and that I liked this girl. That's when I thought my GF and I could still continue our relationship, but then she went crazy on me a week later telling me that she had told me to break up with her. Somewhere in that more calming conversation we had, I believe she had it in her mind that she somehow told me that I should end it, because my GF was no good for me, or at least conveyed that information across. But yes Rose76, I have walked out of the house once and it didn't help all that much as I believed it would. And yes, I can see even at this point there are going to be fireworks, and I need to prepare myself for that.

I sure hope so. That's what brought me here. The thought of waking up one day when I'm 60+ and having never been in a relationship frightens me to death. I know if I don't act now and do something about it, I will end up alone at 60, and I know I'll deeply, deeply regret it. I'm already regretting it at 36. It's been hard enough in my life building the confidence and self esteem I've been lacking when it comes to women, but to add my Mom into the mix doesn't help one bit. I definitely feel I can approach women more now than ever, but I now need to fix the Mommy situation, which I believe was a big reason why I lacked the confidence and self esteem all those years; including the fear of "what will my Mom think."

Again, that's why I'm here. I'm trying to change that. I want to change, I want my independence, and I want to pursue my life with my needs and goals, with my morals and values. Not hers. I love her dearly, but this has to end.

Do you want to find out?

I imagine that you typically don't explore things much with your mom, lest she blow up at you.

I've been there. That long-bred tendency to keep my ideas to myself, and not move ahead with something I might want, lest she get upset, carried over into my regular life, for many years, until I became aware of it and addressed it.

As a result, right now you are allowing yourself to wonder about potential gf's intentions. Don't just wonder about something so central to your heart. In my view the better approach is to talk to her. "I've been wondering if we could try again, to explore. How does that sound to you?"

This is really a very telling comment. You would not be inviting yourself, as if it is an offense to express some interest in something that has been put in right in front of your nose several times.

She must wonder how many times she has to mention that party.

"You've mentioned the Christmas party several times, and how you hate to go alone. If you are willing, I'd love to be your escort/accompany you/go with you."

*****

Psychology Today has a Find a Therapist feature on their website. You might be able to get referrals from a local college that has a graduate level program in psychology or counseling or social work.

I can fully identify with what you wrote. My mother and grandma behave in very much the same way towards me. But it took me a very long time to fully come to terms with the truth about these relationships; that being that they are neither normal or healthy. Reading what you wrote has really helped me, in this regard, and I'm sure others will feel the same. You have explained the situation so well, and for me it has helped to show that toxic parent "child" relationships share similar characteristics.

Just as you explain, my mother was very supportive of me when I was growing up. In fact I would say that my early childhood was quite idyllic. But my mother seemed to change as I got older. I think that somewhere in all the care that she gave to me and other family members she lost sight of her self and her own identity. When I was very young (around 5 or 6) I remember that we would sometimes visit my mothers friends. But she allowed those friendships to die, over time. I think, in part, that the closeness of our relationship was a curse because she built her entire life around me and gave up everything else. Perhaps at the time she felt that she did not need anything else in her life, that it was full. I imagine that was true at the time, but a child is not a child for long, and I think a parent needs to try to strike a balance. That said, I'm not a parent, so this is easy for me to say. Anyway, it's quite extraordinary to read what you wrote about your instinctive feeling that your mother did not want you to date girls or have a relationship. I had exactly the same feeling. Looking back I had a few opportunities, where a girl was clearly interested in me. But I did not seize them mainly because I feared my mums reaction. Thinking about this now, that strikes me as very wrong. A mother should want her offspring to find happiness, in whatever form that takes. Analysing the situation now I see this had a negative impact on me. It meant that missed out on the opportunity to build experience of talking with girls that I liked and gain knowledge that would help me to select a suitable partner, later on. It was not until I moved away from home, at the age of 27, that I began dating. Before that I had zero experience in this area. Inevitably my early relationships were a complete disaster. Even thou I lived away from home, I would report every detail of my private life to my mum. After all I was programmed to divulge everything. If I withheld any detail, just as you mention, I would be accused of "secrecy". I find it quite remarkable to read what you wrote, since the language that your mother uses is so similar to that which my own mother used in arguments. Also the ferocity and turbulence of her temper seems similar too. When you wrote that your mother said "she kept pawing at me" those words could have been spoken by my mother.

I haven't yet read all of the comments which have been written in response to your post. But it strikes me that, as is usual for this forum, people have posted a lot of excellent advice. I would echo some of those points, for example, I feel it is important you recognise that in reality you mother does not have any control over you now. The problem is, that she has conditioned you to fear the consequences of displeasing her. In part this works rather like the tantrum which a child might throw, effectively your mother screams and then throws her self to the floor and holds her breath until you give in. The only way to correct her behaviour is not to give her what she wants, i.e. compliance with her wishes/demands. Unfortunately this will cause her to ratchet up the pressure on you in the hope that you will yield. She will probably also switch her tactics. Hard as it is, you have to be a bit cruel with her in order to be kind to yourself. Ultimately this is also better for her, she cannot go on treating you as thou you were still a child, she has to make a life of her own. Your breaking away will give her space to do that. What she chooses to do with that space, however is her choice. But she has to learn that she cannot manipulate you and unfortunately there is no gentle way to do that. I think you are quite right in your analysis, parents who are like this do not want their children to have romantic relationships because such relationships threaten to divert energy and time away from them. I agree with other posters, it would be better for you to move away and you are unlikely to be able to resolve the situation until you do this. In the future, would also encourage you to divulge very little information, about your private life, to your mother. Experience has taught me that my mother will always find something that she dislikes about a potential girl friend. Finally, try to watch out for history repeating itself. Sometimes we are drawn to partners that remind us of our parents, and so the offspring of toxic parents gravitate towards controlling partners. Try to spot this and in so doing break the cycle... and if you can do that maybe you can let me know how you achieved it since it's something I struggle with, lol.

Your mother may be a narcissist. Here's a website with some information:
Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers

I suspect that my mother is a narcissist. She'd often leave the kids in the station wagon to "run in" to a store, and then spend over a half hour chatting with the store clerk about fabric or whatever.

I read through the list of narcissistic characteristics, and I honestly don't really see her as a narcissist. I think my Mom has something else entirely different going on, but I can see how one would diagnose her as a narcissist. I think she's dealing with both a combination of depression, and using me as her "project", to be involved in my life and not living her own. And the more I've thought about it, I see those two specific characteristics as something that's been going on for nearly 25 years, and even more so since my Dad passed away.

I think my Mom really doesn't know where treating me like a child rather than an adult begins and ends for her. Even the little things add up. Just an example, a few weeks ago I went to a concert, by myself. She insisted that she drive me and drop me off and pick me after, because there's no sense is paying for parking. As I've said before, she uses our financial situation as an excuse for almost everything. And yes, we're not in the best shape financially, but I don't see her trying to change that. I for one am, which I hope will give me more of an incentive to put my foot down and make my own decisions without her being able to use it as an excuse.

But I do realize part of it is my own fault, I've let things slide for so long, some of which I should have known better, like opening the mail, that it became a normal routine for her. I grew up in a household where I felt I never had anything to hide, simply because I was taught never to hide anything, so no boundaries were ever drawn. Now I see that that was a big mistake, and I need to take more responsibility for my own actions with my life.

As I've mentioned before, I'm reading the book Toxic Parents, and I'm finding some real help in there. Coming here and writing and getting feedback also helps, a lot. I feel I've been making real progress, but it's slow, and not as quick as I wish it could be. I'm starting to make small changes and adjustments in my daily routine, changes to things like starting to get my banking statements come to me directly via email, rather than by the mail. I've even felt I've taken some steps in my overall physical health; trying to eat better, get more exercise, etc. Perhaps a combination of mental, emotional and physical health will lead me to a brighter future.

Eventually dating and girls will come back into the picture, and I've had days where I feel incredibly confident that I can stand up to her and finally tell her how I really feel, and that she has absolutely no right in that part of my life. Then there are days where I'm not sure if I have the balls to do it. Like I said, it's slow progress, but it's progress nonetheless.

I would recommend therapy and possibly for your mom or the both of you together to just help work out some issues regarding communication and control. I think shes having a very hard time allowing you to have your own life and doing what you want to do and although her intentions may be good, she is not letting you do what you want to do in your relationships and your life in general. And you are old enough to make your own decisions. I would try to sit down with her and have a conversation about this and perhaps bring up counseling. If she doesn't want to do that, look into it for yourself, for it can really help with analyzing your own thoughts and feelings as well as your mothers'. good luck!

I haven't read all the comments here, but I see your mom as over-controlling, too, and selfish, and down right mean. For goodness sake, you are a grown man. What do you mean she won't "let" you have a relationship? You deserve having your own life, unless you want to be an old man, living with your older mom the rest of your life.

Try to pay no attention to her. And stand up to her! Seek your own therapy. I doubt she would go or want you to go, but go anyway. I had to have a therapist to be able to stand up to my mom. She is narcissistic. I married at 33, have two great children, and a great spouse. My life began in a lot of ways when I finally took a stand. She was mad, but so what? She has never cared for my husband but she knows not to criticize him in front of me.

I know I am being blunt, but I don't want you to live the rest of your life in fear of what your mother says. Okay?

Man oh man, I could scream!

So everything has been relatively calm over the last week or so. I've been reading and working with myself on how to overcome the fear of confronting my mother about these issues. The book Toxic Parents has told me to take certain steps before I have this actual confrontation with her, and it may take a few more weeks before I can get to that point.

One thing I want to clarify before I go any further, is the fact that the place where I met my ex-girlfriend isn't really a gym, but a swimming pool, complete with hot tub and steam room. I didn't want to get into the logistics of what it really was, as I was fearful that someone, like my Mom, or other family members might happen to comes across this forum and put two and two together, figuring out it was me. I'm just one of those people who's leery about being to specific about what you write on the internet if it's not necessary. But now I feel I must be more specific based on what happened today.

So I've been going back to the pool (gym) on a regular basis, and Friday night is our weekly 10-midnight swim. My ex-GF arranged so that all of us regulars and friends should go out for a Christmas party dinner before we go to the pool. I told my Mom the other night that I'm going out earlier on Friday for this party. She keeps asking who's going, and all I respond with, is "everybody," and leaving it at that.

So this morning I get out of the shower, and she's on the phone. She gets off and tells me that she just placed an order for a bathing suit, so that she can start coming to the pool with me.

Inside my head, explosions went off. Lot's of them.

But at the same time, she did mention several years ago when I first start going, that she wanted to come and use the hot tub. But all of sudden now she decides she wants to come? She clearly wants to see what I'm doing, and who with, especially with my ex. I stopped going for an entire month and she never said a word. Now I'm going back, and now she has this sudden urge to accompany me?!?

I want to confront her, but I don't know how. I'm deeply afraid of my own Mother, especially when she'll make me feel guilty, and it will be all my fault if I tell her I don't want her to come. Why must she engage in my social life, I don't in hers, even of what little she does have. Twice a week is all I ask to get out of the house and have my own time, but I clearly can't have that either. I JUST WANT TO SCREAM!!!

I feel for you. Your mother is unbelievable, but I do believe you. Time for confrontation. Tell your mother you will not go to the pool, if she insists on following you. You should be able to go to the get together with your friends from the pool without her. You are going to have to make this where you throw down and won't budge. If she wins this, I fear you'll never get free of her.

You're going to have to be as stubborn as she is. Tell her the two of you can do something nice together, but not the pool. If she keeps asking intrusive questions, you may have to refuse to speak to her at all. Sooner or later, you're going to have to get out of that apartment. If you wait till she is okay with it, you'll never leave.

It's unfortunately, now or never for you my friend.


You must take a stand now, or weaseling your way out from under her clutches may never happen.


Tell her you two can do something else together, what that is idk, but make it clear that the pool is your sanctuary, and that of course she may go to the hot tub, you're not forbidding her, its just that she can go on any day except Fridays...


Your mom is unbelievable

" i just want to scream" you say

well, what is stopping you ?

Regardless of what your mother has you thinking, it is your life to live, not hers.

If what you are saying about her is true and an accurate portrayal of what is happening, then you need to take action.

Your mother has invested heavily into keeping you in a state of child-like dependence.

Any threat to her authority/influence over sends her off the deep end. Having a girlfriend is, to her, the ultimate betrayal.

I sense that you never rebelled during your teenage years, or in the years since.

I also sense that you have a poor self image and look to others for guidance and validation. Your mother holds the titles of primary caregiver, authority figure, room-mate and confidante. She has way too much influence over you.

When you try to gain a little bit of space (going back to the pool) she pushes back by informing you that she is going to go with you. She doesn't ask, she tells you she is coming. Discussion over. Then you get mad. Then you rationalize by thinking "well, years ago she did mention...."

Don't you get tired of this? Aren't you bored?

This situation will never improve by itself, soon she will telling you who can be your friends, when you are allowed out to "play", etc.

Then she will start meddling in your career and so on.

Do you want to be in this situation in a year? 5 years?

Her mental illness, left untreated, will only get worse. It will drag you right down with her.

ONLY YOU can change this situation. ONLY YOU can live your life. Stop talking endlessly about what she did and put some VERBS in your sentences!

"life rewards action" Dr. Phil

This kind of scenario reminds of the Truman Show where the controlling father figure, and everyone else, monitors each and every thing Truman does, even in his bathroom. Your ship needs to sail.

You need to tell your mother to back off.

OMG I read this and wanted to throw up! (But yeah, its spot on...)

Oh, and I FULLY disagree with the "joint therapy" bit.

Why?

It doesn't help you cut those damn apron strings! This is NOT about "you and her" this is about YOU needing to be INDEPENDENT! The two of you in therapy together will just reinforce that mommy/son bond. You two are stuck together with superglue.

Get your own therapy. Joint therapy is more for couples and families with kids under the age of 18. If you go to joint therapy, it will just be a lot of COMPROMISE and my friend, at this point, you're waaay beyond the point of compromise. Your mom should have NO say in anything that you do in your life. You make the decisions, and if she doesn't like it, then tough!

So this afternoon I had my talk/confrontation with my Mother. I just couldn't take it anymore. I let everything out, told her about how I felt, how she hurt me, that as an adult I need my own independence, and this isn't healthy. I told her she forced me to make a choice between her and my ex-GF.

There's a lot to cover, and I can't really think straight having just come out of all this... just a ball of nerves and shaking at the moment, we had three to four hour talk. But what a lot of it ultimately comes down to is, is that she's obsessed with sex. The reason she called my girlfriend a *****, is because she was in a long-term relationship for a while, so she's not a virgin, and therefore I shouldn't be with someone who isn't a virgin. And if she ever found out I slept with someone outside of marriage, she told me she doesn't want me in her life, and that she'll completely disown me. And I honestly don't feel threatened by that, because it feels a lot like an empty threat. I can't see her getting by the rest of her life without me in some way. But who knows, I can never tell with her. Part if it is a guilt trip, and part of it is that she really does believe it.

As far as our living arrangements and finances are concerned, I told her that I'm going back to work, and I'm going to be looking after my own bills and finances from now on. But we both know that I owe her money in the years she's helped me. I told her to make me a list of what I owe her, but that it needs to be a capped list. I can't be paying forever; there can't be an invisible number, because knowing her, it would never end and I'd paying until the end of time. And there's also the fact, even the times that I have worked and paid for my own things, everything is hers - she and my Dad paid for it all.

Ugh, exhausted from today. But I do feel better to having gotten this off my chest with her, but there's still a lot of work ahead, and I need to begin working on a way to move out.

I'll write more when I get my composure back.

That took courage.

A very good start!

a few things...

Your mom isn't obsessed with "sex" as much as she is obsessed with ownership of you. No woman , virgin or not, will ever be good enough for her boy. Don't believe the whole "i'll disown you" drivel. She is just trying to keep you stuck.

As for the finances and her making a list of what she believes you owe her, don't hold your breath. Why would she help you to move on?

My advise, for what it is worth;

get a mail box (so she can't fiddle with your mail)

and most importantly, MOVE OUT .

If it means sleeping on a friends couch on the weekends while you get yourself sorted, start there.

Do not delay moving out until your "debt" is paid, because it never will be.

Keep going to the pool, even if she is there.

Do not allow yourself to become isolated. Stay in touch with people , you ex girlfriend in particular.

Finally, do not share your plans with her. She will try to debate the issue and bog you down with the super glue of guilt and toxic shame.

stay strong

Now that 24 hours has passed since my confrontation with my Mom, and I've regained my composure, I feel I can go into more detail about what happened, and what was discussed. I apologize in advance if I tread over some things I've already may have been said.

I mentioned about how my Mom had now all of a sudden decided that she was going to start coming to the pool with me, and that was the start of the tipping point. Friday night my pool group had all decided that we were going out for dinner before the swim, so I was planning on leaving earlier than usual. So five minutes before I'm about to leave, my Mom says, wait, I've got to run out and get some take-out before you go for dinner (for herself), don't leave until I get back. And I'm like, why? But before I could ask her that, she was out the door. I was going to leave anyway, when her friend called. She asked me where my Mom was, and I told her, and that she'll be back soon. She asked if I was going out to the pool tonight, and I said as soon as she got back, I was out the door. She asked, why do I have to wait? I replied with, you tell me? It was then I let it out all to her friend, and told her everything that's been going on, with my ex and my Mom. She said that my Mom had been telling her about what's been going on, but of course only her side of the story. She told me that she's been telling my Mom to leave me alone, that I'm a grown man, and that I need to make my own decisions in life. She can clearly see that my Mom is overstepping her bounds, and has actually been trying to help me - and this is her friend! I then told her about how hurt I'd been, and that she called my girlfriend a ***** before she had even met her, or knew anything about her. My Mom's friend was like, wow, she had it in for her alright, and it was completely unfair. It was then that my Mom had returned home, and her friend said she would call back later, and to tell her that she had called.

It really helps knowing that even my Mom's friend can clearly see what going on, and thinks it's wrong. So I ended up getting to dinner late, as I was the last one in. My ex-GF even texted me, asking where I was. But the rest of the evening was quite great. My ex and I spent the vast majority of the night side-by-side. And the little things, like her picking food off my plate, or kicking my leg if I made a crude joke. Boy, I do love those things about her, and our relationship. But at certain points during the night where we discussed things in private, I really think deep down she would like to try again, but when I look into her eyes, I see she's been hurt, and I really feel based on what we have discussed, she won't do it again. She cares about me, but won't go down that road.

So Saturday at lunch, I bring everything up. I tell her I'm hurt, and that what she did to me has just been eating me up inside, and that she had no right whatsoever to make me choose between her and my GF. I told her she judged my GF without ever really knowing her, and that I don't want her coming to the pool with me, especially under these circumstances, because I feel like she's spying on me. We talked about a lot of things, and I told her that all of my close friends had suspected for years that when I decided to start dating, she'll never approve of it. I told her she's depressed and needs help, but refused, as she believes all psychiatrists are quacks.

She started to tell me that she wants me to have a relationship, but that I need to find a certain type of girl, and not someone like my ex-GF. I told her she's living in fantasy world, that person doesn't exist, but she is insistent that I'm wrong, and this fantasy woman does exist. And then she got on about how that person MUST absolutely be a virgin, and that if I were to have sex outside of marriage, she doesn't want me in her life. I said I respect and value her opinion, but I can't do that if I'm with someone. She said if that's the case, we're through. And she brought this up several times over the course of the discussion.

I told her how hurt I was that she does things without asking, especially buying me a cemetery plot. She said it was a double-depth plot, so if I did get married, it would be there. I told her that doesn't change things; that's a huge life decision, and you made it without me. She didn't apologize for it.

Then we got back onto girls, and she started telling me about how over the years in public places, like the grocery store or restaurants we've been, where I've talked to nice girls. She said I needed to meet a girl like that. I turned it around on her and said, and what if one of those girls wasn't a virgin either? She said, then nope, you couldn't be with them.

I then asked her about her life before my Dad. I had heard stories about her boyfriend when she was younger; a hippie sounding kind of guy. She told me she ended it because her Dad (my Grandfather) didn't approve of him, and so he was gone. Mind you, my Mother was 21 years old when this happened. I asked her if Grandpa didn't like Dad, would you have ended that relationship as well? She said, yes.

I told her she didn't grow up in the puritan age, you watch television, you see how the world works, that's not how people live. Her response, that's why the world is so stupid and crazy. I told her she's extremely negative, like the world is always against her. And she said the world is against her. Mind-blowing, just mind-blowing at this point.

I asked her, what if I don't want to get married, what if I just see someone for several years; we're not supposed to be intimate? She said, no one should date several years, and that you should be married by that point. I kept telling her you're making decisions for MY LIFE, and I can't live by your rules and what you think I should be doing. Again, she said then if that's the case, I'm out the door with nothing but the clothes on my back. And everything in our house is hers, even the stuff I supposedly paid for. Regardless of when I worked, or even the part-time work I have now, she and my Dad indirectly paid for it all. She's been supporting me, and that's final. That's when I told her, make me a list, crunch the numbers and I promise to pay you back, it's the least I can do. But I said I'm not paying forever, because where does it end; baby food and diapers, the hospital bill for when I was born? She never said anything.

A lot more was said, I told her things about my GF, defended her the best that I possibly could. I don't feel as hurt, and I'm not so much angry as I am slightly aggravated. I texted my friend and told him what happened, and he agreed, she's lost her mind. It's clear more than ever, even as some have stated on this board, she's just not going to approve. Sex or no sex, virgin or no virgin, me having a relationship is a betrayal to her. And I told her that to, and she never responded.

I know moving out is for the best, but there's a lot of baggage that needs to be dealt with at home first. I know that sounds like an excuse, but believe me when I say it to be true, my friends who know me and my Mom see where we're at with things at home; a lot of stuff from when we moved, things to go through. Plus I need to stay focused on this project that's due at the end of January. I can't just pick-up and leave, I need my computer, and according to her, this computer belongs to her.

Oh yeah, she also said again she could get my phone records to see what I was texting with my GF, and she can do it. This is someone who can barely turn on the computer, let alone track down phone records that are on my name, that I pay for. Another empty threat to scare me, that's all.

And that's just it, a lot of this is really all just scare tactics to get me to conform to her lifestyle. I've made the decision that I'll obey her rules while I'm under her roof, and that I'll pay her back what I owe, as long as it's reasonable. After some of my debts are clear, and things are organized, I'm gone. And if I meet someone again down the road, and want to have a relationship with them, and she hates me for it and decides she wants me out of her life, that's her decision, not mine. I tried to be reasonable and act like an adult. But I see there's no getting through to her, there really isn't. I can tell her, her friends can tell her, my friends can tell her; nothing will work.

I'm not sad so much as disappointed that she's chosen this, but I can't do anything about it.

***I forgot to mention, I brought up "the pawing", when my girlfriend put her hand on my arm, twice during dinner with my Mom. My Mom keeps on insisting that's not how responsible adults act. Craziness.

So you aired out a bunch of stuff. At some point you've got to just do what you're going to do and don't try to explain it or justify. When push comes to shove, she may be a lot more adaptable than you expect, if she has no alternative. Meanwhile, she's not going to give an inch.

What do you mean by living by her rules, while you are under her roof? Are you going to let her tell you what time you must come home? Don't knuckle under on things that are none of her business. If she throws you out, then leave. At age 36, it's high time you provided for yourself. Let her buy all the cemetery plots she likes. That doesn't mean you have to use them.

Also, you make a lot of assumptions about what your ex g.f. thinks. You need to keep an open mind.

Let your mother keep anything in that apartment that she wants. You're a young man in his prime. You can start from scratch. Just get out of there as soon as you can.

wow. just wow.

She obviously is suffering from one or more serious mental illnesses.

Delusional and Paranoid to start.

Soon, she will be telling you that if you leave, she won't be able to protect you from Terrorists or Ebola or the Easter Bunny.

Once she realizes that threats won't work, she will switch to bargaining , then pleading, then threats to self harm, etc. Be prepared.

The story you tell of her giving up her boyfriend to please her father i find very curious. I wouldn't be surprised if she carries a lot of resentment from that. In her mind, she probably thinks you should make the same concession.

Anyway,

Next time she starts arguing with you, AGREE with her and see what happens.

When she talks about getting a printout of your texts from the phone company (LOL!) simply say "well, good luck with that."

Another great deflection, courtesy of Dr. Phil is "How's that working for you?"

Stop engaging her and focus on your future.

As for this excuse about your project that can only be done on "her" computer....get real. Stop finding ways to empower her. Basic laptops aren't that expensive. If that is not an option, many libraries have computers available. Or, you could make the leap of faith and ask your ex to help.

If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you need to do is stop digging

It definitely feels better to have it out in the open, rather than keeping it inside, regardless of the results. And you're right, I can't let her give me an inch, and I suspect she probably will be more adaptable than she says. It's the fear she's instilled in me all my life, and she knows it. Not anymore.

One thing I've started to realize, and this goes back to my very first post, being an only child, I was somewhat spoiled with material possessions, and have had the ability to purchase mostly anything I've wanted as an adult, and my Mom never had issue with that sort of thing. It feels like she's trying to keep me happy with "things" rather than with "someone." And I've fallen deeply into that; you have no idea how much I have. And for the first time in my life, I don't want it. In fact, I've begun selling stuff on eBay and online in the last several weeks. If my Mom wants me to pay her back for all of this stuff, that's what I'll do. I even feel better purging like I am. If I need stuff, like you said Rose76, I can start over, I'm still young enough. A lot of people in the world have started over. I guess that's a big step that I must now face, as I've relied on my parents for so long; they were always there to bail me out. As much as I blame myself for it, I feel as if I've been conditioned with this behaviour as well. My Mom never told me to go out and fend for myself, or try to make my own way in the world, she's always been there to help, so-to-speak.

That's the one thing I don't want to happen, self harm. If she wants to make herself miserable, that's her prerogative. But if she starts doing something like that, I'm not sure what to do. I guess I'll just have to cross the bridge when and if it happens.

My Grandfather is crazy religious. He considers movies, television, all fiction in general the work of the Satan. When I stayed at my grandparents place when I was little, I got yelled at for watching Sesame Street and cartoons. And now the kind of work that I do, the entertainment industry, just pure sin. My Mom grew up with that, although she doesn't feel that way about my career choice, and watches movies and TV. And she's an only child, just like I am, so I think a lot of bad parenting from him has finally sunk into her head. And since my Dad passed away, she now keeps a bible next to her bed, and started watching religious shows. It's odd, because my Dad was an atheist, as am I. And it's funny, in our talk yesterday, she said she knows I'm a non-believer, and that she doesn't cram her religion down my throat. But yet here she is, telling me I need to be with a Virgin. Talk about hypocrisy.

I chatted online with my best friend today, and told him what happened. He to came from a heavily religious influenced home, but had three brothers. He's living with a girl, and his parents don't chastise him. He's known my Mom since we were children, and he's both surprised and yet isn't with my Mom. He's shocked that she would go as far as disowning me over virginity, but like everyone else has said, it's not her choice or any of her business, it's mine. It's her choice if she chooses to not speak to me ever again, but I really doubt she would. And besides, once I'm on my own, she'll never know what I'm doing.

Once again, thanks to everyone and their input. Just writing this stuff out really helps me get through this, and motivates me. I'm so glad that everyone can see what's happening, and that I haven't done anything wrong, with no reason to feel guilty for any of it. Like I said before, I'm disappointed and feel as if my entire childhood was a lie. Despite some things, I thought I had a fairly good childhood, no abuse, family vacations were great, etc. I guess I just have to remind myself that she's either changed, or because of me becoming an adult, can't handle the idea of me growing up, and I can keep those good childhood memories regardless of what's happening now.