[Big Mama]

Hi. It has been forever since I have posted here. I can give you the short version, there is not enough cyber space in the world to describe it all. My H has been borderline abusive for years. I have PTSD and Stockholm Syndrome because of him. I say borderline some days, he never put his hands on me, but abusive in other ways. I am reluctant to say abusive. Maybe it is my perception, maybe it is just a way to keep me mentally safe and not admit it is abuse, IDK. But that is neither here or there now.

That was my story almost a year ago, I left my H and we have been working with the T. I tole him I would not come back until he went to T faithfully alone, and we both saw the T together as well. He did as I asked. HE saw the T for about 4 months pretty regularly (some times he works out of town so he couldn't make it) and now he and I have been seeing the T togehter for 4 months or so. HE has made huge changes. He has learned to talk quieter and gentler, he has learned nto to call me names, he has learned to recognize when I am triggered and beyond reaching mentally. So there has been some positive to separating. He has a greatly improved relationship with our kids since I left. It kinda forced him to be a dad. Not jsut the dad who gets to enjoy the kids when he wants to .HE has had to deal with troubled (teenage kids) and sickness, and loss of gf's and so many things. It has been good for him to be a parent.

I am living not to far away from my H becasue we are separated. The intention was always for me to return home. We get better, fix our mistakes, make the necessary changes and resume with our marriage. The date in which we were to resume (the final last date) was August. That is like in 6 weeks. I am starting to panic.

The T told me at the beginning of this that I was not able to make safe decisions for myself. I agreed. (I stayed for all kinds of crazy abuse, and OCD crap, and gaslighting and worse, lets just leave it at that for now) I told the T that I trust her completely. What she says goes. If she says never go back , then that is what I will do. If she says I think it is ok to keep trying then that is what I will do.

PLEASE FORGIVE ME... I jsut need to talk, I need to get it all out, and it may be confusing, I jsut need to see it and feel it. Sorry again, in advance. So it is getting close to time to go back, and last week at the end of the session my T says "I don't think you are ready to go back in August, you've made changes but I jsut don't think you are strong enough." What led her to say that was a conversation we had in joint T the week before. I was very afraid to confront him, it was not even an issue that involved me. It involved our son. But I was so afraid. That fear is a reason not to go back yet. I was afraid to confront him. Not that what he had done was that bad, it was jsut average run of hte mill stuff. While we were in the session my H interrupted me. This is not the first time he has interrupted me. I know that is nothing huge. IT happens some times. But he does that, he talks over me, and he knows I cannot remember very well. Due to the PTSD and the dissociative issues I have, it is very difficult to remember things. I am getting better at it, but still not there. So my H interrupted me, and that is usually what he does when he is frustrated. That way he can change subjects, and switch things around and cause me to forget what I was talking about in the first place. It works to. But this time I said to him "Wait, you interrupted me" I should have said "WAIT, YOU INTERRUPTED ME !!!!!!!!! DAMMIT !!!! But instead it was not very audible. IT was very meek and quiet. Infact he may hot have even heard me. (though he likely did) But the way I said it lacked authority, it lacked a demand for respect, instead it was said as a quiet observation. The T has advised me not to return in August until I gain better control over those skills. She is not saying never go back, jsut not right now. I'm not sure how I feel bout that. Somedays I am really good with that. IF I am honest with myself, most days I am really good with that. Somedays I am not, but I am having a hard time deciding what I want.

Today I was talking with my H, (me and hte kids have been staying the weekends with him in order to adjust to moving home and making sure he is "safe" to be around. (mentally safe) I told him I was having a hard time committing to returning in 6 weeks. The reason was it is so nice and calm at my house. I can relax there, there is no stress, no rules. Well he didn;t like that. He is ready for me to come home. That's all I hear, I am so ready for you to come home, I miss you, when are you coming home? It is a lot to bare mentally. He didn;t understand what I was saying. I was saying, I like how things are now, and I am having a hard time leaving. Instead he said "well sure life alone is less stressful, and not having all of us togehter is less stressful. Ohhhh he is not going to make this easy. I'm not sure I am ready to come home.

I dropped it. No need in fighting about it, I said what I needed to say, I don;t need for him to like it, right now all I need to do is way what I need to say. We got into a discussion about our upcoming plans for July 4th. I asked him if he wanted to go with me and the kids to do anything. He waited a few min and then he said OK, sure. I told him alright, but there's one thing. You have to be patient and understanding when it comes to the kids. He wanted to know what I meant. (we have 3 kids) I told him last year I remember more than anything else how terrible july 4th was because he flipped out. One of the kids didn;t get supper so we went threw the drive threw and a kid got food. Of Course the little one didn't have to go potty while we are at the restaurant, that woudl be to easy. But she had to go afterwards. So we had to make two stops totalling 10 min all togehter. But he flipped out, and did hte usual " I am not going anywhere with yall ever again This is why I don't do anything with you, and even YALL RUIN EVERYTHING. So a perfectly good night ruined for sure.

So I told my H I did not want a repeat of last year. He wanted to know how much more patient was he going to have to be. I reminded him the more people involved the more patient he has to be. It jsut takes time to meet everyone's needs. He wasn't very nice. His body language scares me. It leaves me feeling intimidated. He said "Fine then, NO, I don't want to go" I told him I was not trying to take away his joy of being a parent, I was tno trying to make it so he couldn't see the kids. Just be nice, thats all I ask, be flexible and be nice. HE said " No, IT's a work day, and it will be late, and I might be less then happy" The kids beg me every year, to leave daddy at home. He makes everything so technical. No one likes that kind of control. So then the question in my mind is 1. Was I wrong to say anything (questioning myself which is a no no) 2. Is he saying he can;t be nice, no one is going to tell him what to do (which is controlling) 3. Was I wrong to bring up the past, I was keeping score as he calls it. 4. Did I really do something wrong and hurt his feelings. ( I'm double thinking again) IDK, IDK, IDK.

After that he got up and left the room, and locked the bathroom door. He jsut up and left. What hte hell. HE went and locked himself in a different room, no explanation, jsut a pissed look, get up and locked the door. I left him alone. I'm no dummy. SO I gave him a few min. He said he had hte door locked because he needed to use the bathroom. That is not what it sounded liek to me, I could hear him rambling threw stuff. But who am I to say, Your not PEEING!!!. It's not for me to say. When he came out he seemed fine .But hen he saw our son and went off on him. HE was cooking. My H told him when you re done clean up, I mean every glass, every piece of silverware, clean the cabinets, and don;t forget to do the stove. When I come back in here if it is not done right YOU WILL come back in here and do it all over again. My son jsut looked at him like "damn dad." Then my H walked out and went outside and went on about his business. My son asked what was up with that, so I told him.

OMG, I am out of my freaking mind. I am contemplating returning to this insanity. What hte " F " is wrong with me. I can see it, I can see the writing on the wall, yet I am afraid to say NO, I CAN'T DO IT, I can't return to this. WHAt is wrong with me. I am torn, I see the truth, but I dont have the balls to step back and say NO, NO, THis is not right.!!!!!!!!!

OK, I Don't know what I am looking for form you guys. I am so confused, and I don't want to think anymore. I want to scream and cry, I want to run away, I want confirmation that it is ok to be afraid, I want to know that I am justified. My H will try to convince me with his every breath and with all his power and might to convince me I am wrong, and nto being fair.

If you have any suggestions or comments please be nice. Don't tell me I am a fool, don't make me feel worse than I already do. Help me see, IDK what I want or need. I feel broken and needy, I don't need condemning to make it worse.

[Raindropvampire]

To me it sounds like you do know what you need. You need the calm of your own space. This is a perfect opportunity to learn how to set healthy boundaries. It sounds like you are truly terrified to go back in August so don't go back that soon. Could you enlist your T to help you set a new date that would be healthier/safer for you?

Very gentle hugs to you this is a horrible amount of pressure to be under

[Big Mama]

Thank you for such encouraging words. There is no way to explain how helpless I feel at the moment. Thank you again for your kindness and lack of judgement.

[Celest Stone]

I agree with Raindropvampire, ask for more time, I have gone through this and went back twice over 35ys, however at the moment I am alone again have been for 3 yrs now H and I agreed that with all the yrs together we should work on things from different addresses but stay true to each other, he broke that again, and now I am lost. but there is always hope, just remember one thing if you are going back and hoping that you can change him it doesn't work he has to want to change and respect you for you....I will probably always wait for my H and not move on, i'm old fashioned and vowed till death do us part....take your time look into yourself I'm just starting to learn that now.

[MrMoose]

I find it hard, sometimes, to sort out what part of whatever my wife say is true and what part of it is (intentionally or not) just creating a feeling in me of fear and self-doubt to make it easier for her to get what she wants from me. So you sound like you have a lot of self-doubt and it doesn't sound like the husband is helping solve any of that. I can't suggest any particular course of action but I relate to the confusion. Your son's reaction to his dad while cooking seems like the absolute truth though!

[Crazy Hitch]

Mama, for all the time that I've known you, you've always acted with integrity and with your kids best interests at heart.

As you say, if you did go back in 6 weeks time, you would be returning to "insanity".

I think your T is right. She's worked with you for a long time, knows you well, and knows your situation well. If I am to be totally honest, by your above post, I think perhaps you're not quite ready just yet to go back in 6 weeks.

I don't like some of his behaviour. Demanding your son scrubs up like that is intimidating and utter nonsense on his behalf.

With regards to him licking himself in the bathroom, it's probably a safer strategy for him to give himself "time out". I'd let him have that time out as opposed to ra run in your face.

Now my thoughts about bringing up the past. There's a time and place to mention things that hurt us. No, you were not wrong for telling him how you feel. You see, some of his behaviour has not changed and this is what you're both working towards. I think it's more of pointing out what you'd like to see different in the future as opposed to dredging up the past unnecessarily. And if he can not acknowledge that his own behaviour was wrong then, then who's to know he wouldn't do something stupid again this 4th July.

Your feelings have been hurt too, more than his, so if you did by some 5% chance rattle his nerves, so be it.

In the famous line from The Never Ending Story:

"It's to hurt if it's to heal."

You can do this Mama. We've all got your back

[Big Mama]

Thank you .I have been away since Sept of last year, and the plan was to go back in August. But now I am having second thoughts.

I feel badly. First it was February, then then April, then June and now Aug. The T said Don't set any more dates, please, jsut go back when you go back.

I am feeling better and better about not returning in August.

This sounds like my parents' marriage, except they never separated. I wish they had. My father didn't appreciate my mother until she had a brain tumour and nearly died. And even then he wanted her to go back to how it was as soon as she got home from hospital. They were going to separate then but she got ill and he was pleased because he had his cook/ cleaner/ little slave back. Maybe I'm not being accurate but that's how it felt, back in the 80s when I was a teenager growing up with them. Is that why he wants you back? Does he actually love you for you, or want someone to do all the chores? What about the effect seeing all this has on your kids? FWIW I agree with your T and think you shouldn't set a date and just go back when you're ready. But I actually hope that enough time passes and you realise that you neither need nor want to return because you have such a wonderful life as a single woman. Your kids will be happier. Just my thoughts. But sending hugs and good wishes your way.

[Big Mama]

WOW. How very insiteful. Where does it say that he wats me for the chores, and to be his cook/cleaner, and slave? My words did not say that, (not in this thread) but my unspoken words must have spoken volumes. That is exactly what I am afraid I will become again. The maid.

Is that why he wants me back? maybe, IDK. WHo wouldn't want that back.

Does he want me or does he want someone to do the chores? IDK.

Sometimes I think he likes the label. It makes him look good. How things look means everything to some people. Successfully married, 3 kids, my wife doesn't have to work, we own a house, I put my wife in a new car and it is paid for.

IDK, I can see some good points some days. Other days, like today, I see lots of negatives.

Thank you for sharing your insight.

I wish my parents would have divorced long ago, I got to see what happens when people who fight a lot stay married. 40 years later it is still not pretty sometimes. My H is able to see what happens to families when they divorce. His parents did, mine should have, yet with all our knowledge I have no idea what to do.

[Nammu]

Sounds like he still has some work to do on his own with the T. His taking a time out was a good thing but he still has some control issues. Don't let his need to have you back by a certain date intimate you. I agree with the T, that not setting dates would be a good thing. He might not like having an uncertain time but it is what it is. Tell him you can't give a date because changing behavior ( both of you, him becoming more flexible and you becoming stronger) takes time. It's like a painting.

First you need to get the canvas and tools, build it, make the paints and wait for the oils to dry inbetween each session and all of that gets complicated by real life, like supplies being available, humidity and health. Not all of it is in the painters control, if you have patience the painting will be beautiful but you can't rush it.

Your marriage has the frame and canvas but you had to take off the paint and start over, it can't be rushed. Listen to your T, I think she's wise.

Hi sweetie, welcome back. I often just give suggestions but I'm going to flat out tell you my opinion.

You should not go back now. I do not think you should reconcile. Period. I think he cannot or will not change. He is extremely abusive to you and sometimes to the kids. He appears to be treading water during your couples counseling to appear loving and willing to change - but he's not doing a good job. I feel very confident that he unfortunately will not change.

Frankly, I'm worried that the abuse will escalate if you reconcile. I think he will unleash his wrath on you and punish you for you leaving. I think you are very fragile and damaged by this man and that you could sink further - and then remain in this abusive, toxic marriage and be too scared to leave ever again.

I think your children are hurting as the marital household is toxic. If they aren't scared of him, they are angry at him by the way he treats you and his poor relationship with them. They would flourish in a calm, loving household. They would experience what you have experienced during your time away. Peace. Not being scared or bullied. Safe.

Stay in individual therapy. You need that after everything you've been through.

Hire the best darn divorce lawyer in town. Have ALL communications go between the attorneys. You would have no obligation to talk to him whatsoever despite what he says. Get divorced. You will be stressed and uncertain about your new future awaiting you and custody of the kids. Your therapist will be supporting you and help you cope.

Your attorney will handle every aspect of your divorce. Get a good one and tell them what your marriage is like. Tell your attorney all communications needs to be through attorneys during the divorce. Tell your attorney to get you out of this marriage, to get what you are legally entitled to, custody issues, everything.

Place your trust in your attorneys hands. If you have any friends that are divorced ask if they had a good attorney and get their name. Call the local bar association where you live and tell them you need a divorce attorney that is very experienced in high conflict divorces. You will receive free initial consultations with attorneys. Go to at least three attorneys and pick the one you like the best. And then have them start working on your case right away.

Having all communications only through the attorneys will prevent him from gas lighting you, lashing out at you, baiting you, controlling you, confusing you, saying you are being crazy, and manipulating you. If he calls you don't pick up. If he rings your doorbell do not answer. There will be absolutely NOTHING that the two of you will need to discuss. If he harasses you, tell your attorney. If there are issues withe kids, tell your attorney.

Ask your attorney about access to your bank accounts so you will have money in case he handles the finances. Don't wipe out a bank account as those are marital assets and that is a no-no in the judge's eyes. If he tries to do that have your attorney do what is called a financial accounting. It will legally protect your share of the financial assets and reveal if he is hiding assets. If he drains his 401(k) that will be uncovered. You are entitled to half of that, half of everything.

Your attorney may be able to have the court order temporary financial support from him to you if he is the breadwinner. Stay on his health insurance through the divorce if you are on his insurance plan.

I married a narcissist and when we divorced, our attorneys communicated and I felt safer and so much less stressed. It was expensive but worth every penny for my attorney to advocate for me as I was too passive and scared to stand up for myself. Because I wasn't allowed to assert myself during my marriage, like yours. I literally felt brainwashed from all the abuse over the years. Severe emotional abuse where he had all the control and demeaned me regularly. I was a shell of the confident woman I used to be. That confidant woman is back and she is happy...I have healed and my child is flourishing and happier.

If you are disabled and became disabled during the marriage, tell your attorney. I became disabled during my marriage of 16 years. My ex has to pay me alimony for the rest of my life because of my disability. This is separate from regular alimony. My ex has to keep me as sole beneficiary on his life insurance policy. I was not required to keep him on mine. My child is the sole beneficiary now.

All this sounds overwhelming but your attorney will handle it. I am an attorney and hired a divorce lawyer when I divorced. For my mental health. So don't worry about all the legalities and what-ifs. Take of you and love the children.

I give you such firm suggestions from my own experience in my marriage. My attorney said my case was the highest conflict divorce she'd ever handled and she had a lot of experience. My ex and I had no direct communication with each other during the divorce. The attorneys handled that. During the divorce, the judge ordered that pickup and drop off of our child to each other for court scheduled visitation must occur in a public place with cameras. We did that in a grocery store parking lot with cameras and I never got out of my car. We still do this today and only text occasionally and only concerning our child. Such as, I'm on the way to pick up K..stuck in traffic will be 15 minutes late.

I am 100% happier since I divorced. My child is much happier and is glad we divorced. I have 50% custody and she prefers to spend as much time at my home than his. She is safe and well cared for at her dad's but he is still controlling. I do not speak ill of her father to her but we are close and I listen to her and support her if she needs to talk about her dad. He has calmed down considerably since the divorce but he will never change. Your husband won't either, I think.

Last thing which I think you already know....you cannot be in the same house with him during the divorce. Most women have the husband move out of the marital home. I did not do that. I had to escape. He kept the marital home and paid me my share of equity.

Don't go back. Move forward. You are in my thoughts and PM me anytime. I understand what you are going through and I will listen and support you. You will get through this and have a new lease on life. My only regret is that I didn't get out sooner.

Huge hugs to you...

[Big Mama]

Thank you. I am not sure what I will do. I am pretty sure I will nto be going back soon, that is for sure. Last week I jsut didn't know what I was going to do, this week, it is becoming more and more clear that I can't go back soon

I don't know what I will do, it is hard to say.I do know that Iam going to go to sleep though. IT is 4 am.

I am sure I will have a better ability to think and respond after some sleep. Ty for sharing part of your story, and being willing to help me based on mine.

[Wild Coyote]

Hi BigMama,

My heart goes out to you.

I am new here. Your account in this thread supports the fact that you have been trying to heal your marriage in good faith. It also seems like your husband has been also trying; yet, it appears he continues to fall short of what you and your children need most. It's sad for everyone, as a failure to reconcile means a "loss." Losses can be difficult to navigate as well.

I honestly believe you know what you need to do. Nobody else can tell you what to do, they can only make suggestions based upon their observations and/or upon what you share with them.

It's a bit disconcerting that there is already conflict over July 4th, again. I am not sure why anyone would wonder how patient they would need to be for the children? Children are children and they need varying amounts of patience. As adults, we must be prepared for whatever they happen to need in any given circumstance.

I understand he might feel very frustrated with the fact that you are not ready to come home. Even so, the idea that he'd needed coaching about how much patience he might need with his children on July 4th seems very discouraging and may well be a sign that he has not changed much, that he is not capable of a kinder, gentler approach despite the time spent in therapy?

Have you and your husband gone out on dates during this time, just to have some idea of how things go between you both without the children present, etc.? It may be you two just do not resonate with one another anymore, which is something that would become very apparent if/when you were to spend time alone, without the children or others around you.

I do get the feeling that you would need to be able to take a strong stand, and hold your ground, with him if you were to get back together at any point. Some couples are well-matched in this way and easily resolve their differences in this way. However, if one party is looking for, and is needing, the upper hand, the confrontational style will not work so well. It will only continue to escalate.

I am a firm believer in encouraging people to fully evaluate and to make their own decisions on relationships, as they are the ones living in, or saying goodbye to, the relationship. They are the ones who live with the impact upon their lives.

I wish you continued healing. I hope you will know, with clarity, what's best at any given time. These are very important decisions, for sure.

In Support of You and Your Family,
WC

Please show yourself lots of patience and self-compassion.

[Big Mama]

Originally Posted by Wild Coyote

It's a bit disconcerting that there is already conflict over July 4th, again. I am not sure why anyone would wonder how patient they would need to be for the children? Children are children and they need varying amounts of patience. As adults, we must be prepared for whatever they happen to need in any given circumstance.

I understand he might feel very frustrated with the fact that you are not ready to come home. Even so, the idea that he'd needed coaching about how much patience he might need with his children on July 4th seems very discouraging and may well be a sign that he has not changed much, that he is not capable of a kinder, gentler approach despite the time spent in therapy?

My H is very rigid. HE is tired after work, I get that. The response we get from him often that "This is why I never go anywhere with yall" or "Yall ruin everything" is very common from him. I don;t think it will be a phrase he will use again after working with the T. But I do think the attitude that goes with those phrases will still exist.

Dealing with little kids can sometimes suck. Do they have to potty at inconvient times, do they get car sick, do they spill stuff, yes they do. It is a fact of life and any one who deals with kids knows that. My H is more like a weekend dad. (when we were married) The kids are mine all week and it is up to ma to make them be quiet, be respectful, chew with there mouth closed, tell nice jokes, don't touch anything in stores and such when we are together on weekends.

Now that we are separate and working on things, the kids see less of him and he wants to hear them giggle and sing, and tell dumb jokes. But when things start to interrupt his wishes it is not good, and I jsut don;t want that to happen again. I don;t want to get 20 miles from home and he decide...... The fire works went off late, the display lasted longer then I wanted it to, the traffic is terrible upon leaving, and now someone has to go to the bathroom and someone does't feel well because they are tired. Well guess what I'm tired to, I've been at work all day, so buck up and shut it." That is the wrong attitude for any parent to have, and I do not want to be stuck in a car with him and 3 kids for 20 min, trying to protect them from his verbal garbage.

I was trying to say to him, if you can;t go and be nice and be patient, then don;t go. Do you think you can do that. I wanted to give him a clear guideline of what was expected and I agree with you Wild Coyote it is a shame to have to explain that to an adult.

Quote:by Wild Coyote: Have you and your husband gone out on dates during this time, just to have some idea of how things go between you both without the children present, etc.? It may be you two just do not resonate with one another anymore, which is something that would become very apparent if/when you were to spend time alone, without the children or others around you. End Quote.

We have as part of out T. We have had date nights in order to reclaim some of that lost love kinda stuff. With no kids around, and an agreement to talk about the kids a minimal amount, we get along fine. He is not how he used to be there either. He is much more pleasent.

I will tell you what he used to say and do and what he does now in an attempt to show he has changed in a positive way.

We used to go out to eat and he would say ok, there is X amount of $$. So you keep yours under this amount. If you let her eat off you plate we will not have to pay for her anything to eat and the boys can share a meal. So I get reduced to butter noodles and chicken strips so that little bitty can eat to, while I really wanted shrimp or a small steak. The boys get a sampler so that at least both of them get a little of what they want and we all drink water, but he gets a 15 oz steak with a baked potato and hey can we jsut add a skewer of shrimp, and he'll have tea to drink.

Then we all have to worry that teh food will not get eaten, or someone will scratch there fork on there plate, or someone will drop a noodle.

That was then. NOW it is we go were we can afford, the last time we went out he actually told me Get what ever you want. When I ordered water, he said DO YOU REALLY WANT WATER. So I got tea, what I really wanted. He planned a nice meal for me at outback, made reservations and everything. We had a nice conversation, it was good. When it is he and I no kids things go very well.

Originally Posted by Big Mama

Thank you. I am not sure what I will do. I am pretty sure I will nto be going back soon, that is for sure. Last week I jsut didn't know what I was going to do, this week, it is becoming more and more clear that I can't go back soon

I don't know what I will do, it is hard to say.I do know that Iam going to go to sleep though. IT is 4 am.

I am sure I will have a better ability to think and respond after some sleep. Ty for sharing part of your story, and being willing to help me based on mine.

You're welcome! I hope you get some sleep. I'm glad that you have peaceful time right now....perhaps you could extend your separation period, especially as your therapist has reservations and think you need more time. You should take as much time as you need. I'm here to support you wherever you go!

Take care of yourself and I hope you have a good day. I'm glad my story was helpful...and my post to you was just my opinion. It's my two cents lol. I was compelled to post in your thread because I care about you and your situation resonated with me. Be extra kind to yourself, you deserve it.

[Big Mama]

Originally Posted by Wild Coyote

I do get the feeling that you would need to be able to take a strong stand, and hold your ground, with him if you were to get back together at any point. Some couples are well-matched in this way and easily resolve their differences in this way. However, if one party is looking for, and is needing, the upper hand, the confrontational style will not work so well. It will only continue to escalate.

I am a firm believer in encouraging people to fully evaluate and to make their own decisions on relationships, as they are the ones living in, or saying goodbye to, the relationship. They are the ones who live with the impact upon their lives.

Please show yourself lots of patience and self-compassion.

I agree. I am learning how to stand up for what I believe. How to say what mean and mean what I say. Something I have never done with him. I'm not sure he is looking for hte upper hand, he just is so used to doing things that way.

Incase some of you have not read threw some of the other things here posted by me, My H has aspergers, so he tends to be a little more self centered. Though I have other friends who have aspergers and they make extra efforts to be very conscious of how they come off to others. I guess I get the worst of it, becasue one has to let there guard down somewhere.

Thank you for you thought provoking words and your encouragement.

[Big Mama]

Originally Posted by rainyday107

You should not go back now. I do not think you should reconcile. Period. I think he cannot or will not change. He is extremely abusive to you and sometimes to the kids. He appears to be treading water during your couples counseling to appear loving and willing to change - but he's not doing a good job. I feel very confident that he unfortunately will not change.

Frankly, I'm worried that the abuse will escalate if you reconcile. I think he will unleash his wrath on you and punish you for you leaving. I think you are very fragile and damaged by this man and that you could sink further - and then remain in this abusive, toxic marriage and be too scared to leave ever again.

I think your children are hurting as the marital household is toxic. If they aren't scared of him, they are angry at him by the way he treats you and his poor relationship with them. They would flourish in a calm, loving household. They would experience what you have experienced during your time away. Peace. Not being scared or bullied. Safe.

Stay in individual therapy. You need that after everything you've been through.

I donlt kno what to do. He has made a lot of positive changes, that is for sure. But I am still very untrusting, and for good reason as you mention above.

My oldest child is going off to collage by the time I get back. That reduces the stress level some. My H has learned a lot about parenting and humanizing. So I do feel a littel better. I have the middle kid in T as well, and I am considering putting the littlest one in T as well.

I fear that he will hold this separation stuff over my head and make it harder to leave. But I do have my T. And she has said she wants us to continue to see her a a couple every week for at least 6 months. She also wants to continue see me individually for at least 6 months and for a while after that when we quit marriage T. She needs to make sure I am not slipping back into old habits, or that things are getting worse then she thinks they will. So I feel confident I will at least be ok in that regard.

We have a back up plan in place should he not be the nice person I thought I was going back to. One can never know someone elses true motives, even the T.

[Big Mama]

Originally Posted by rainyday107

I married a narcissist and when we divorced, our attorneys communicated and I felt safer and so much less stressed. It was expensive but worth every penny for my attorney to advocate for me as I was too passive and scared to stand up for myself. Because I wasn't allowed to assert myself during my marriage, like yours. I literally felt brainwashed from all the abuse over the years. Severe emotional abuse where he had all the control and demeaned me regularly. I was a shell of the confident woman I used to be. That confidant woman is back and she is happy...I have healed and my child is flourishing and happier.

Last thing which I think you already know....you cannot be in the same house with him during the divorce. Most women have the husband move out of the marital home. I did not do that. I had to escape. He kept the marital home and paid me my share of equity.

I left in Sept. Two lawyers said whatever you do don;t leave your home. One was so stupid as to even say you will be married X amount of years and if you can stay 3 more years you will get life time alimony. When I asked him are you saying Stay 3 more years in an abusive relationship for $$. He said yes, you'd be crazy not to. HE WAS THE REAL CRAZY ONE.

I chose the wises lawyer, he said your house is just stuff, if you do not have your life then even stuff want help. Leave, you will really lose out, but you will be so much happier and that is what really matters. Money is jsut money, but safety and happiness are everything. Never thought I would hear those words from a lawyer.

I left my home, and took the kids. I moved me and 3 kids into my parents basement. Not a shining moment, but I was happy. Seperating made a huge impact on my. I saw for the first time how restrictive things were with him. I can only hope they change.

Like I said I do have a back up plan, several actually to fit different situations that have been worked out and well planned by the T and me.

Thank you again for your kindness and for sharing part of your story.

[TishaBuv]

"We used to go out to eat and he would say ok, there is X amount of $$. So you keep yours under this amount. If you let her eat off you plate we will not have to pay for her anything to eat and the boys can share a meal. So I get reduced to butter noodles and chicken strips so that little bitty can eat to, while I really wanted shrimp or a small steak. The boys get a sampler so that at least both of them get a little of what they want and we all drink water, but he gets a 15 oz steak with a baked potato and hey can we jsut add a skewer of shrimp, and he'll have tea to drink. "

Oh brother, that says it all! He's so selfish! You shouldn't have even gone with him to restaurants if he treated you all like that. I'd have taken my buttered noodles and dumped it on his head, lol!

I'm in a similar situation, living in the house with husband, but in other bedrooms, no sex, through this summer. Then I told him we'll decide if we are getting divorced.

I realize that my h never put me first. He doesn't really care and love me in the way I think it's supposed to be. He loves me for what I do for him. He doesn't really care that the conflict and stress with him has caused me severe problems. He just wants what he wants.

[Big Mama]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

"We used to go out to eat and he would say ok, there is X amount of $$. So you keep yours under this amount. If you let her eat off you plate we will not have to pay for her anything to eat and the boys can share a meal. So I get reduced to butter noodles and chicken strips so that little bitty can eat to, while I really wanted shrimp or a small steak. The boys get a sampler so that at least both of them get a little of what they want and we all drink water, but he gets a 15 oz steak with a baked potato and hey can we jsut add a skewer of shrimp, and he'll have tea to drink. "

Oh brother, that says it all! He's so selfish! You shouldn't have even gone with him to restaurants if he treated you all like that. I'd have taken my buttered noodles and dumped it on his head, lol!

Well thats is where Stockholm Syndrome comes into play. You don;t bite the hand that feeds you. Complain and it is turns into "well we'll jsut stay home" which means I have to cook it, serve it, and clean up after it. So in my case it was jsut wiser to shut up and do as I was told. Another Good one was when I would suggest something different or was less then happy to have a little kid picking food off my plate was "you don't appreciate anything, you are so ungrateful, it's gonna be a long time before we come out again I can guarantee you that." So I just kept my mouth shut and took what he was willing to give.

In a situation where Stockholm Syndrome is not present then the obvious response would be dump it on his head, call him out on it, ask questions. But that was not possible.

Thanks for your reply ... that is wonderful that you have options and backup plans. You sound much more grounded today.

Stockholm syndrome

[TishaBuv]

He sounds really abusive. I think he's just trying to act better now to get you back, but the leopard won't change it's spots. He can't be rehabilitated.

[Wild Coyote]

Originally Posted by Big Mama

I agree. I am learning how to stand up for what I believe. How to say what mean and mean what I say. Something I have never done with him. I'm not sure he is looking for hte upper hand, he just is so used to doing things that way.

Incase some of you have not read threw some of the other things here posted by me, My H has aspergers, so he tends to be a little more self centered. Though I have other friends who have aspergers and they make extra efforts to be very conscious of how they come off to others. I guess I get the worst of it, becasue one has to let there guard down somewhere.

Thank you for you thought provoking words and your encouragement.

Oh Dear, I can only hope you've found something helpful in some way.

I will be honest, I try to be very cautious about projecting my own experiences, my own biases, into another person's situation. It's tough to be completely "objective," I can only try to not contaminate your story with my stories or my own history, which would include my own experiences, my own biases, my own feelings, my own anger, my own fear, etc.

I became very aware of this, how we all can project our own stuff into situations which have nothing to do with us or with our own history, when I witnessed a therapist projecting her own stuff into a friend's marriage. It was so bizarre. My friend was so confused by this therapist. We'd meet after her sessions and I would be mortified by what the therapist was telling her and how the therapist was "bullying her," in a sense.

For example, the therapist was truly twisting things up, making things worse than they were for my friend, distorting what my friend had stated, making her husband sound like some kind of a madman, etc. How do I know this? We have been best friends for many, many years. She has always told me what goes on and she admits this. She swears she did not tell the therapist anything different than she'd told me. This therapist was "out of control," like a runaway train.

When my friend would try to counter what the therapist was saying, the therapist would then tell her there was no arguing with her clinical assessment, as she had presented case details to other therapists in the practice and they had all agreed he was severely abusive. My friend has never known him to be severely abusive or abusive at all. My friend was seeing the therapist because she was having her own mental health issues. She was not there about her husband or her marriage.

This is a small community. I was a bit suspicious about why this therapist was zoning in on my friend's husband like this, hoping to prove he was some kind of a monster? Well, soon enough, it came out: the therapist was going through her own divorce with someone she was alleging was a "monster."
The therapist and her own husband were deeply embroiled in a very hostile divorce.

This did a lot of damage to both my friend and to her marriage, for awhile. It has taken a lot of healing time, as how do you explain all of this to your husband, without him wondering how it all came about?

My friend and her husband are now fine, except my friend may never trust another therapist again in for the rest of her life.

While people can share on some of the similarities of marriage issues and/or can share re: feelings, it's a gross disservice to project my experience or my feelings about my negative experiences into your current experience(s). It is also not fair of me if I start interpreting your marital situation based upon my own marital situation.

I don't feel I am wording this well just now.
I do feel you understand what I am trying to say though.
You had mentioned you cannot know what anyone's agenda might be, even the T's agenda. Exactly. While she is there to help you, she is human. She may have a different agenda, conscious or unconscious.

I think you have a very sound approach. I am sure the distance, your having your own space, has been helpful in reaching a greater level of objectivity.

The bottom line: This man has been your husband and your children's father. You can divorce one another without demonizing one another. You can see one another's faults and be sad about them, there is no glory in persecuting one another further.

It's critical we come from the heart. We open our hearts. This does not mean we dismiss the Truths. It does mean we honestly feel compassion for, and we show compassion to, one another despite the need to separate/divorce. The goal of a divorce is to end the chaos/turmoil, not to perpetuate it with more stories, further accentuating one another's downfalls, and shoring up more hatred toward one another. We can accomplish separation and divorce with a sense of doing the right thing for everyone involved and doing it with Love despite the hardships and the hurt involved. It's not the way society has encouraged us to do this. It's not what divorce attorneys thrive upon. It is, however, more humane and more compassionate. It engenders potential for the eventual healing for everyone involved, despite the history and the huge loss involved in divorcing. We can do what we need to do, we can do what's healthiest for all, and we can do it out of deep love and respect for everyone personally affected.

I have kind of stumbled over my words. I am very tired today, my apologies. Yet, I honestly get the sense you know what I mean and you'd like a kind, peaceful resolution (whatever that means for you and yours), if at all possible.
I feel it's quite possible.

You and Yours Are On My Heart.

WC

[Trippin2.0]

I certainly have not experienced this level of abuse, but one thing's for certain, all abusers sing the same songs, and your hubby is still singing that same old tune.

My ex didn't have the comfort of a personal slave, but he liked having the "trophy gf" and loved the power of keeping me under his thumb.


The abuse was so subtle and systematic I didn't recognize it until after it became physical.



Even so, there were times I would threaten to leave (mostly due to his drug use and possessive ways) and he would "work" on himself, promise to change and for all intents and purposes after a few months (at a time) I was convinced change was happening (as you are now) and then I would listen to his bullshyt about loving and needing me, and being a better man... So I declare the relationship back on track, and then GUESS WHAT?

Just as I let my guard down and enjoy the new bf, out comes the abusive azzhole who was just hiding behind "Mr. Changed Man", to keep me.

Wash rinse and repeat cycle.

Anyway, enough about me.

Here's where your hubby comes in.

I'm really sorry to have to say so, but I have ZERO faith in a happy union with your husband.

And its not because I am projecting, if your OP actually contained decent qualities and proper examples of improvement I would be screaming "RECONCILE!"

But as it so happens, your OP still puts your husband in a very negative light. Just a different negative.

He is acting the part of changed man, just to get you back where he wants you. That's probably why he got so upset during a simple talk about being patient... I would bet money it had nothing to do with the kids. His patience is wearing thin on your disappearing act, he wants you back so his life can return to normal, so he can quit acting, because facades are hard work. And yes, unfortunately normal includes abusing you.

He's still an abuser my friend, just better dressed, a wolf in sheep's clothing, give him the time and opportunity and he'll reveal himself.

I know you can't or won't really fathom divorce right now, so my advice is to just keep doing what you're doing, don't put anymore deadlines on your separation, and slowly but surely you'll come to the right decision.


You will ultimately do what's best for you and your children, he will ultimately tire of playing nice without any reward in sight.

[Big Mama]

Trippin, thank you for your support. I don't know what to do. I know that the Stockholm Syndrome still has a strong hold on me. It may always IDK. I crave abuse it appears. I continue to go back to this and want to go back to this. In stockholm syndrome it involves a very deep love and need. It makes no since. I can;t really explain it. It is a maddening illness for sure. It contains a kind of brain washing that you could never imagine.

Any way, I still don't; know what I will do. I see him adn talk to him and he seems so nice. Tonight I saw him and he was harmless. I am drawn to him, but I know the risk I take by going back. It's jsut so confusing.