[Freewilled]

I'm just wondering how long it's ok to complain or cry about past stuff or even present challenges in life....what is the difference between a person in pain crying for some support/help and someone allowing themselves to play the victim? If your T implied you had a victim-mentality, how would you respond? If one is being a victim, how do they just stop it?

[brillskep]

There is true vulnerability, that is, being in a situation where you really are a victim such as domestic violence or a burglary etc, and being aware that you are suffering, being aware of your human condition, your shortcomings, your weaknesses. Then, there is also "playing the victim", which is a psychological game. Basically you perpetuate your role as a victim in this case. This is the case of someone doing something that unconsciously leads them to be victimized. In your example about complaining, I would say that is playing the victim when instead of acting to better present circumstances when possible, the person still chooses to complain about the past. But this is only one example of victim mentality, which also implies a lack of assuming responsibility for one's own role in becoming and remaining a "victim".

Do I think it's wrong? I think that, unless this is outright, conscious manipulation of the other, we can't talk about ethics here. This is normally done at an unconscious level and it's done because the person doing it is getting something from it that they can't or don't know how to get in another way, such as compassion or attention from the others. That is the theory.

What I believe is that maintaining a victim role does actually hurt the one doing it. We really do think we are victims when we do that (and a lot of people do!). We usually really do believe our own stories about ourselves.So it hurts to think that way. That's why I'm not so hasty to make a judgment call on this, because it will just fit right into the circle, prompting the "victim" to feel victimized once more, for playing the victim.

This would be my reaction if my T said that to me. (I think he never did - if he has it must have been extremely rare. But other T's told me that). I go to therapy for support and help finding the strength and better options than playing the victim, not to be scolded and lectured about playing the victim. I am aware that I do play the victim too sometimes.

[LivingWithLaura]

Hmm. The "victim" mentality, in my opinion, refers to someone who doesn't feel accountable for their life/circumstances, feels there is nothing they can do to make their situation better, and tends to blame outside circumstances or other people entirely for their unhappiness/problems.

I don't think there can be any time length placed on someone as to how long it's ok to cry or complain - that's a very individual thing, and healing is different for everyone.

If my T implied that I had a victim-mentality, I would probably first become defensive, and then try to take an honest look at whether or not there is any truth to it. I would want to prove the T wrong. I might explore what parts of my life I DO have control over and whether or not there are steps I can take to improve things.

[AllyIsHopeful]

Sometimes "playing" or "identifying" as the victim really hinders the healing process in therapy. Sometimes it takes a while to turn off this mind state though, especially when you have gone trough things that justify you feeling this way. The difference is, you were a victim then... Your not a victim now. When you learn how to differentiate the two emotions, you will be able to process it with a whole new perspective and it will open up brand new material for you and your T to work on.
Playing the victim mentality in your current life will not help anything. You have the power to make changes and to lead your life in the direction you wish to go.
As long as you keep the "victim mentality" you are not allowing yourself control of your life and actions. You deserve that and to be happy!
Hope this helps. ;

Originally Posted by Freewilled

I'm just wondering how long it's ok to complain or cry about past stuff or even present challenges in life....what is the difference between a person in pain crying for some support/help and someone allowing themselves to play the victim? If your T implied you had a victim-mentality, how would you respond? If one is being a victim, how do they just stop it?

-Hope

[healingme4me]

There are people that are correctly identified as a 'victim', for legal intents and purposes.

Taking a victim mentality, is different. Powerless to take actions to change. For instance, life handed me a case of lemons and because of that, I'll never be able to grow and change. Looking back, at ones life, it's ok, to see how it has shaped you, victim mentality dictates, that because it shaped you, you are powerless to take the steps necessary to become a survivor of what was once out of your control. It also, involves blaming thinking. A bunch of negative self-talk. A bunch of 'if-only's'.

There's a quote, that I heard elsewhere, that really speaks to overcoming such thinking.

"Be your own Hero.". ~Unknown/Anonymous( forget or am unable to give credit to that person )

Here's some links, to various articles that deal with Victim Mentality and Overcoming it.

Growing, is about self-awareness. Hope it helps.

P.S. 'Is it wrong to play the victim" as your thread title...it's negative self-talk...
http://www.becomeselfaware.com/artic...mentality.html

Path to freedom: Overcoming the victim mentality (or 'victim thinking')

http://www.insead.edu/facultyresearc....cfm?did=50114

Strategies to Deal with a Victim Mentality | Psychology Today

The Victim Mentality | American Association of Professional Hypnotherapists

Originally Posted by Freewilled

I'm just wondering how long it's ok to complain or cry about past stuff or even present challenges in life....what is the difference between a person in pain crying for some support/help and someone allowing themselves to play the victim? If your T implied you had a victim-mentality, how would you respond? If one is being a victim, how do they just stop it?

Hi Freewilled, I think your first point sounds more like grieving than dwelling in victimhood.

I think the phrase "play the victim" is a social construct, rather than a psychological one, that originates from misunderstandings or perceptions one has of another. This can happen when someone on the outside thinks that the victim-person is someone who has power (agency) but refuses to use it, while the victim-person (un/consciously) feels or thinks she is powerless (helpless).

The replies and the articles explain the psychological concepts, but I want to add that there is a spectrum to this from several angles. For one, there is a range from adaptive to maladaptive behaviors. People in the maladaptive range can really hurt themselves and others. There is another piece to this-when someone makes themselves a victim, there has to be a perpetrator/abuser on the other side. In this way, the accused can actually be the real victim, while the victim actually becomes the perpetrator/abuser. I'm not sure if I explained that well enough...

In addition to the behaviors, there is also a range of internal to external locus of control, and some people may act it out more than others.

My mother was a perpetual victim, and I had to deal with it all during adolescence, so I am really hypervigilant about this. For example, she blamed her children for ruining her life (as if we had any say in being born). I forgive her. She probably could not cope with her place in the world; it would have been too painful for her to acknowledge that she made choices but refused to do anything about it due to her unconscious needs (ie, need to be punished). Anyway, it gets really complicated.

How do they stop it? Probably by seeing reality instead of using denial. But many people will not do this own their own and will not change until another person or a therapist helps them realize what they are doing.

[Elektra_]

basically is putting the responsibility of whats wrong in ur life in other people.

[Freewilled]

Autumn - thanks for that explanation. It does help...my mom was also like that and said things like that she couldn't wait for me to leave. I don't really want to get into specifics...but my fear is in going to therapy and trying so hard to talk about my feelings and feel them..And really just being in a victim mentality. I think my T has touched on that with me and it's resonating in my heart and mind today. But I don't know how to just move on and let go. If I did, I would never have gone to therapy in the first place. I don't feel heard or understood - and part of that is I can barely make a coherent sentence or even thought sequence in therapy half the time.

Sometimes I feel like my T thinks I should suck it up as I'm just being a victim. I wish I knew how to do that because if I did, I would.

'Playing the victim' within ones therapy is part of the communication.
"We do what we do until we know better, than we do better" - you all know that beautiful maya Angelo quote.
Some never move out of that state of being if they refuse to seek help.
It may feel like a comfy blanket, but it's like an addiction, you get an initial warmth than your looking for another sympathy hit almost immediately.
It's a torturous existence.
But if active in treatment than one eventually sheds that skin.
We need our wounds to be witnessed within therapy. Until we get new language to describe our pain we fall back on the only way we know.
A skilled therapist can lead you.

[Perna]

Playing the victim is a defense. It works well enough to get us what we want at first but is not working so well anymore. One can't just drop/change it, it has to be replaced with better habits. Practice/learn to see what your T sees when she mentions "you're doing it again" or whatever she says so you can catch yourself. Then call your own bluff, "Oh, I was wanting some comfort right now, this stuff is so very hard!" and give yourself a break! No one labels/calls us names to make us feel bad, they are either trying to help or are trying to make themselves feel good by making us feel bad (and there the accent is on themselves, not us). With my T I learned to make a blanket assumption she was trying to help me in some way and looked to see what it was and when I had trouble understanding, I learned to ask her about it.

[Freewilled]

Originally Posted by Perna

Playing the victim is a defense. It works well enough to get us what we want at first but is not working so well anymore. One can't just drop/change it, it has to be replaced with better habits. Practice/learn to see what your T sees when she mentions "you're doing it again" or whatever she says so you can catch yourself. Then call your own bluff, "Oh, I was wanting some comfort right now, this stuff is so very hard!" and give yourself a break! No one labels/calls us names to make us feel bad, they are either trying to help or are trying to make themselves feel good by making us feel bad (and there the accent is on themselves, not us). With my T I learned to make a blanket assumption she was trying to help me in some way and looked to see what it was and when I had trouble understanding, I learned to ask her about it.

Thank you, Perna! That was so helpful to me....I struggle to see my T as helping or trying to help. Sometimes I get scared of him and that he's a danger to me emotionally. I do believe on some level right now that he is not trying to hurt me and if I could hold onto that and learn to make that blanket assumption that he is trying to help me, I really think I could have a break through...Instead of staying in my panicked, limbo state that I find myself back in again and again. Thank you because that place feels very torturous.

[Perna]

Thoughts are all in our heads? That means they are "imagined". When we worry about stuff, it is always about what is going to happen in the future and no one knows that so one can learn to practice deliberately thinking good thoughts instead of worried ones? I kind of did that with T, too. We get this imagined image of what T is like and what might happen if we say/tell them X or Y? Well, I just arbitrarily decided T was going to be helpful and I started looking for that. Because our thoughts direct what we look for? If we think something bad is going to happen, we look for something bad to happen and then when something/anything happens, we know to label it "bad" because that is what we are looking for? Just say to yourself, "T is trying to be helpful, that is what I am paying him for". So, even when he is not helpful or you perceive him as hurtful or scary, you can then accent the "trying" and give him "credit" for that, think, "Gee, this stuff is really hard, I'm glad I have T on my side" instead of "T cannot help me, I'm a loser".

When I was trying to learn about "touch" I had a breakthrough getting my hair cut? I get a little anxious going to get it cut (Hair Cuttery, only once or twice a year :-) and so I decided to practice there? I deliberately thought of my head in the beautician's hands as she was shampooing my hair, how good the warm water felt and how strong and supporting her hands felt cradling my head, etc.? It seems such a small thing but not if you pay attention to it? Think of how she "could" get soap in your eyes or accidentally bang your head against the side of the basin or have the water too hot or cold and not ask, "Does that feel okay?" or could be rough and pull your hair. She "cares" and does her job well for you. T's are like hairdressers

Originally Posted by Freewilled

but my fear is in going to therapy and trying so hard to talk about my feelings and feel them..And really just being in a victim mentality. I think my T has touched on that with me and it's resonating in my heart and mind today. But I don't know how to just move on and let go. If I did, I would never have gone to therapy in the first place. I don't feel heard or understood - and part of that is I can barely make a coherent sentence or even thought sequence in therapy half the time.

Sometimes I feel like my T thinks I should suck it up as I'm just being a victim. I wish I knew how to do that because if I did, I would.

Hi again,

And so what do you think is the source of that fear? Hypothetically, what do you think would happen, or what it the very worst that could happen, if it turned out that you were "really just being in a victim mentality"?

Besides the fear, maybe your superego is causing anxiety. Do you think there is guilt involved? I have major guilt issues, so I hope I'm not projecting now.... Why the pressure to move on and let go? I don't think that is victim mentality. Don't forget, people don't have to be blamed.

Let yourself be angry at people, but then think of cause and effect.

[Freewilled]

Originally Posted by Autumn Skies

Hi again,

And so what do you think is the source of that fear? Hypothetically, what do you think would happen, or what it the very worst that could happen, if it turned out that you were "really just being in a victim mentality"?

Besides the fear, maybe your superego is causing anxiety. Do you think there is guilt involved? I have major guilt issues, so I hope I'm not projecting now.... Why the pressure to move on and let go? I don't think that is victim mentality. Don't forget, people don't have to be blamed.

Let yourself be angry at people, but then think of cause and effect.

If I was playing the victim, it would mean I'm very displeasing to my T and wasting his/my time. Also, that I am a crappy person writing that out loud sounds bad, I know, but I think that's the conclusion I would come to.

I'm not sure about the guilt. I do feel guilty a lot but I'm not sure how to place it. It's related to a lot of things. One though, is feeling guilty for being a "difficult" client and not getting better faster or enough or doing it right. Sorry but I don't know what you mean by your last sentence. What do you mean by think of cause and effect?

[Favorite Jeans]

I always think of "playing the victim" as a sort of insincere or manipulative way of trying to make someone else look bad or feel guilty. Sometimes we do this in our own minds to avoid feeling responsible or ashamed of our part in a conflict. Eg in re-telling a story about a conflict we cast ourselves in a better, more innocent light and the other party as more aggressive or cruel. I think it's a pretty common, if unattractive and unhealthy, way of coping with a situation in which we feel we have little power. Or we have such a limited capacity to cope with guilt and shame that we cannot even entertain the possibility that we were even partially responsible.

I don't think of someone who is having a hard time getting it together in their life as "playing the victim." It's not fair to expect someone who has been victimized a lot to suddenly be able to handle conflict assertively and skillfully. We often need a lot of empathy and a sense that we're safe and someone is on our side before we are able to really look at what we could be doing differently.

It can be a big moment in therapy when, having gotten enough validation (however long that takes) we can consider better ways of coping. The really excellent T has a good sense of when a client needs to complain and tell their story and just be validated and when is the right time to nudge them to take control and help empower them to do so.

Originally Posted by Freewilled

If I was playing the victim, it would mean I'm very displeasing to my T and wasting his/my time. Also, that I am a crappy person writing that out loud sounds bad, I know, but I think that's the conclusion I would come to.

I'm not sure about the guilt. I do feel guilty a lot but I'm not sure how to place it. It's related to a lot of things. One though, is feeling guilty for being a "difficult" client and not getting better faster or enough or doing it right. Sorry but I don't know what you mean by your last sentence. What do you mean by think of cause and effect?

I meant that if you felt guilty or wrong by 'complaining', that you could think of it in terms of cause and effect. For example, children who are neglected can sometimes grow up needy and insecure; this could be thought of as a cause and effect relationship (or correlation) instead of thinking or saying - my parents were horrible. Identifying and understanding causes of why you feel the way you do....But after reading your reply, it doesn't seem that this has much to do with your situation.

When I'm afraid my T will not like it if I do this or that, it usually has roots in fear of rejection or fear of abandonment. Does that sound possible in your case? It's just so many things come down to that, so I would not be the least bit surprised....

[growlithing]

As tons people on this forum already probably know from my posts, this is a very touchy subject for me. I think it's because when I was young, my mother would abuse me and then yell at me to stop "playing the victim" and if the whole world hates me, maybe there is something wrong with me because how can the whole world be wrong? So this particular phrase is tough for me.

If my T were to tell me that I'm "playing the victim", I would get extremely angry and tell her that I am a ******* victim. It's not a role that I chose to play and saying that I am choosing to play that role is completely undermining the steps I have taken as well as undermining the pain I feel from what has happened to me. Saying someone is "playing the victim" when that person has actually been through some harsh crap is really invalidating and dismissive. Maybe I'm not taking as active a role as I could be in many situations. But to say that I'm playing the victim when I'm really just struggling with psychological barriers and cognitive distortions given to me while I was a child is offensive. Maybe it's really just a game of semantics.

However, there was this guy in one of my groups who never took any fault in anything. His girlfriend screwed him over, his best friend ruined his relationship, his college made it impossible for him to graduate because if you don't complete your undergrad in 10 years, all of your credits expire. And that's a crummy situation and he has every right to cry or complain about that for as long as he needs to. But to say that it is his school's fault that he doesn't have a college degree isn't fair. He doesn't have a college degree because he spent 10 years dropping out when something upset him and registering again when he felt better. He has to take responsibility for that so that if/when he goes back to school (because he still wants to go to school), he won't make the same mistake again. He has to take some responsibility for his failed relationships because if he doesn't, how could he possibly have a healthy relationship in the future? In his situation, saying he is "playing the victim" might be appropriate, however I wouldn't say it because it's still just an offensive thing to say and nonconstructive. I'd rather just tell him to take some ownership so he can grow from the experiences and move on instead of making no progress in his parents' basement. Because it is really ****** that he paid for credits and then they expired. That's not cool. But at the same time, 10 years is way more than enough time to complete the particular degree he was pursuing, the rules about credits expiring were something he knew about from the start, so he can say that the school shouldn't have that policy where credits expire, but he has to take ownership in the fact that he let it come to that. And I did tell him that.

Maybe it would be appropriate to say that I'm "playing the victim" too as I tend to post a lot and then reject all help offered for whatever reason. I'm probably projecting a lot in this post or saying two things at once and trying to separate myself from something actually similar in nature. I don't know. I still feel like that is just an offensive thing to say and an unhelpful thing to say. I believe that everyone in the world is a victim of something and that people have a right to play that role if they need to without being made to feel guilty about it. They also need to rise above the past and not let it control them. But I would much rather my T help me to find the places in my life where I need to take more responsibility and help me reframe my "victim mentality" or whatever mindset I have that is keeping me from going from point A to B rather than to use a blanket term such as "playing the victim".

[Freewilled]

Growlithing - I'm sorry if this post upset you in any way. I should've used the trigger icon. I don't remember the exact term my T used, but it was about me being a victim/acting like one or whatever. I have a problem of losing the time we spend and not remembering a lot of the sessions. Almost like they are jumbled up in my mind and I can't make sense of what just happened. So I can't remember exactly what was said.....

I liked your example about the guy from group. I can see that as being an example and it makes sense. I don't think I do that kind of thing. Perhaps I should ask my T for clarification

Again, I'm sorry if my post was hurtful to you in any way.

Freewilled

[Freewilled]

Originally Posted by Autumn Skies

I meant that if you felt guilty or wrong by 'complaining', that you could think of it in terms of cause and effect. For example, children who are neglected can sometimes grow up needy and insecure; this could be thought of as a cause and effect relationship (or correlation) instead of thinking or saying - my parents were horrible. Identifying and understanding causes of why you feel the way you do....But after reading your reply, it doesn't seem that this has much to do with your situation.

When I'm afraid my T will not like it if I do this or that, it usually has roots in fear of rejection or fear of abandonment. Does that sound possible in your case? It's just so many things come down to that, so I would not be the least bit surprised....

Yes - I do struggle with abandonment re:my T I also relate to what you said about the cause and effect and identifying/understanding why I feel the way I do. Thank you for clarifying

[stopdog]

I would rather do anything than be a victim or think of myself as a victim. It is relinquishing responsibility and control to me. There are some circumstances of victimhood which probably everyone endures at some time or other in life, but for me, getting out of that mindset and back to where I have the responsibility and control is very important.

[A Red Panda]

My mom was definitely a victim when she was a child - she grew up in an abusive environment. I'm not sure if she sees herself that way, at least not consciously.

However. My mom definitely "plays the victim" and has a matyr complex. She never refers to her childhood, but her victim role is acted out against my brother and I and anyone else who might not do EXACTLY what she wants. If she doesn't get her way she often does things like telling me what an ungrateful daughter I am and that I don't know anything and just... plays the victim. She'll even flat-out lie about things I've done or said to portray herself as a victim to others. She once told a close-friend of mine things like that I was refusing to visit them but that I was making them pick me up at the airport and pay for my flight. I showed my friend my email - where I'd asked to borrow the money for a few weeks so I could get a cheaper flight, and said that I wasn't going a day's worth out of the way to visit them - but said that they could some and visit my brother and nieces at the same time I was and then they could see everyone else too. My friend was shocked at just HOW different my mom's version was from the email I'd sent.

So.. have I been a victim of emotional and verbal abuse and neglect? Yes I have. But I am NOT a victim. I was a victim, but I am not a victim now.

[growlithing]

Originally Posted by Freewilled

Growlithing - I'm sorry if this post upset you in any way. I should've used the trigger icon. I don't remember the exact term my T used, but it was about me being a victim/acting like one or whatever. I have a problem of losing the time we spend and not remembering a lot of the sessions. Almost like they are jumbled up in my mind and I can't make sense of what just happened. So I can't remember exactly what was said.....

I liked your example about the guy from group. I can see that as being an example and it makes sense. I don't think I do that kind of thing. Perhaps I should ask my T for clarification

Again, I'm sorry if my post was hurtful to you in any way.

Freewilled

Well, the topic reminded me of when people have said that to me in the past and that made me angry, but that isn't your fault and it's not even a bad thing. It was refreshing for me to express my opinion on this topic. Accessing some internal anger isn't actually a bad thing in my mind. So I wasn't hurt by this topic, but let's pretend that somehow I was. There was no way you could have predicted that a topic as innocent as this one would upset anyone. You can't be held responsible for everyone else's triggers because honestly, doing that would be ridiculous. I mean, one of my biggest triggers is footsteps. I can't be upset or offended with people just for walking and I also can't expect people to shout "TRIGGER WARNING" before their heel hits the ground. (Actually that would be even more upsetting yet really funny to picture)

I'm not saying that life is triggering and therefore we on this site shouldn't bother with trigger labels. If this post were about something graphic or something conventionally triggering, then yeah you should warn people. I'm just saying that you can't blame yourself for bringing up an innocent topic and someone happens to get offended. That's on that person for projecting their issues onto the situation. I don't believe people have a right to not be offended anyway.

Anyway, I think you should ask your T for clarification. I would.

[Freewilled]

That's true, growlithing....I have been working with T on my sense of over responsibility which I learned growing up /: I have a lot to work on and its gettin kinda overwhelming and slightly annoying...thanks for your perspective!

[Betty1Boop]

Okay, here is where I become a textbook Aspie (with an apparent lack of empathy--not true). Only an infant should be crying for help--the rest of us should be using our words to ask for help. Using words is the way you clarify the issue and figure out how to help yourself. Crying is an appeal to have someone do it for you. Ultimately, we have to take responsibility for ourselves.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I would rather do anything than be a victim or think of myself as a victim. It is relinquishing responsibility and control to me. There are some circumstances of victimhood which probably everyone endures at some time or other in life, but for me, getting out of that mindset and back to where I have the responsibility and control is very important.

This is excellent. Most, if not all, of us here truly have been the victim of someone else's cruelty, abuse, etc. just coming to the place of admitting to ourselves that we actually were victimized is a painful step for most of us.

The problem comes when we continue to believe and behave as if we are still powerless, helpless, have no control, have no choices, etc. in our lives. That is a kind of learned helplessness or internalizing of the victim role that keeps us frozen, stuck, immobile.

My T has many times reminded me that nothing that abusive is actually happening to me now. If someone tried to hurt me now, I'd fight back. I'm not the powerless child I was back then. I have choices, options, skills, control, knowledge now as the adult I am.

It is hard to stop believing we are still in the midst of being victimized and emerge on the other side. No one with any understanding of abuse, including our T's, believes this an easy process to accomplish, but they do have to remind us and work with us to sort reprogram our image/beliefs about ourselves if our lives are going to improve.

Perhaps you don't like the phrase "playing the victim", but try to rephrase it in your mind to something like "I'm acting/believing/thinking as if I am still being victimized" and perhaps that will feel clearer in meaning -- less negatively loaded. I'd also talk to your T directly about the use of that phrase if it is triggering for you. I'm sure you can arrive at an alternative.